converting .22TCM to 9x23 winchester

[mozeppa]

the ONLY difference between the 9mm luger case and the 9x23 winchester case is 3 millimeters in length.

i emailed armscor maker of rock islands .22TCM asking about dropping in a barrel for 9x23 win.
all i got was a talking front office head who stated ..."it is impossible to convert the .22tcm to shoot .38 super." (notice she said .38 super.) stating that "her" gunsmith advises against try as the bolt face is not wide enough to accept a .38 super on it or behind the extractor....which indeed it's not (if i was talking about .38 super;.....i'm not tho. i clarified my inquiry by stating NOT .38 SUPER!...9x23 winchester!.......She emailed back ..."my gunsmith said NO!"

they sell the gun with 2 barrels and slide springs ...one each for .22TCM and the other for 9mm Luger
the magazines are the same for both cartridges (they indeed are magazines for .38 super and fit the gun perfectly .(incidentally wilson combat magazines in .40 smith & wesson also fit perfectly inside the .22 TCM ...only the feed lips are profiled differently.)

now then .... i've read that .38 acp...9mm largo...9x23 win.....38 super...38 super comp...and .38 Todd garret brass for the most part will fit inside a .38 super barrel....with the width of the rim being the only disqualifying factor. ruling out the .38 super as it is a semi rimmed case.

however the 9x23 win is nearly exact within 2 thousandths in diameter ...same rim profile ...same cutaway for the extractor groove in the brass ....the only difference is the 3 millimeter longer length.

has anyone else done this?
are there any problems to trying this?

 

[Ed Ames]

I’d say leave the TCM part out of the equation because it will just confuse the issue. It’s a 9mm 1911 with a barrel mounted feed ramp. You should be able to find info on converting that to 9x23.

It may be as “simple” as reaming the chamber and replacing the recoil spring, or it may take a new slide due to the breach face. I don’t know/never done it or anything like it, but I’m sure people have at least tried before.

 

[Rock185]

I don't know about Armscor 1911 type guns in particular, but I have done a switch caliber or two with 9MM/38S/38/TJ/9X23 Win. etc. The Kimbers in particular are real easy because they use a .40 Cal. breech face on their 9MM/38S/10MM,etc. guns. As I said, I don't know specifically about Armscor TCM models, but in general these conversions on the 1911 platform are not difficult IMHO....

 

[Demi-human]

Armscor is a production facility. They may make pistols but they are not gunsmiths, as evidenced by your conversation. They were intentionally obtuse for a reason.
I don’t think very many factories are willing to tell a human that it’s alright to modify one of their production pieces.
Even if we all know it will work.
Even if there are conversion kits.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871398387

 

[fxvr5]

All you need is a barrel and a stronger recoil spring. The 9X23 is a wonderful round.

If you handload, the 38 Super can do what the 9X23 does. And as you noted, the rimless versions will fit the breech face even if the semi-rimmed cases won't.

Either way, you can get more power from your pistol.

Here's a third option: The Armscor has a ramped barrel, right? I think they use a Para Ordnance ramp (I have an Armscor upper and a 22 TCM barrel). You could try 9 Major ammo in your current 9mm barrel. You'd want a stronger recoil spring for that, too. There are a few companies that load 9 Major, like Atlanta Arms. That would give you a performance boost without having to buy another barrel.

https://americanhandgunner.com/discover/whats-9-major/

 

[jdh]

All you need is a barrel and a stronger recoil spring. The 9X23 is a wonderful round.

If you handload, the 38 Super can do what the 9X23 does. And as you noted, the rimless versions will fit the breech face even if the semi-rimmed cases won't.

Either way, you can get more power from your pistol.

Here's a third option: The Armscor has a ramped barrel, right? I think they use a Para Ordnance ramp (I have an Armscor upper and a 22 TCM barrel). You could try 9 Major ammo in your current 9mm barrel. You'd want a stronger recoil spring for that, too. There are a few companies that load 9 Major, like Atlanta Arms. That would give you a performance boost without having to buy another barrel.

https://americanhandgunner.com/discover/whats-9-major/

My concern is more the case length than the power. 9mm cases do not always stay against the back of the magazine.

 

[Ed Ames]

I did some research and you can buy a 9x23 para cut ramped barrel for about $180. I’m tempted to get one myself just to try it out.

Random example:

https://fusionfirearms.com/1911-government-barrel-selector-ultra-match-grade

 

[Demi-human]

My concern is more the case length than the power. 9mm cases do not always stay against the back of the magazine.

They do when loaded to the appropriate COAL of any of the longer cartridges, though I’m not sure why this should be a concern. They won’t stay there if there is a sloppy fit any way.

 

[Ed Ames]

I think the issue is 9mm in the .38 super mags that ship with the TCM.

Do Para-18 9mm mags have something to keep the cartridges forward in the magazine? That’s what at least some single-stack 9mm 1911 mags do...outside dimensions are identical between 9mm and .38 super, but inside the 9mm has another bit of sheet metal along the back inside of the magazine and a shorter follower. If the p18 9mm mags are the same way that might be the easy answer if case length is the issue. They wouldn’t feed .22 TCM so you’d want to label them .... but even then they could still feed the 9R if you really wanted to use them with the TCM barrel.

 

[fxvr5]

I think the issue is 9mm in the .38 super mags that ship with the TCM.

Do Para-18 9mm mags have something to keep the cartridges forward in the magazine? That’s what at least some single-stack 9mm 1911 mags do...outside dimensions are identical between 9mm and .38 super, but inside the 9mm has another bit of sheet metal along the back inside of the magazine and a shorter follower. If the p18 9mm mags are the same way that might be the easy answer if case length is the issue. They wouldn’t feed .22 TCM so you’d want to label them .... but even then they could still feed the 9R if you really wanted to use them with the TCM barrel.

I don't know what mags are shipping with the Armscors, single or double stack, but the Para Ordnance 9mm P-18 mags don't have a spacer, and they don't need one. They are well designed and effectively prevent nosedive, so even the tapered 9mm rounds don't present a feeding problem.

 

[Ed Ames]

I don't know what mags are shipping with the Armscors, single or double stack, but the Para Ordnance 9mm P-18 mags don't have a spacer, and they don't need one. They are well designed and effectively prevent nosedive, so even the tapered 9mm rounds don't present a feeding problem.

Armscor does the TCM 1911s in several magazine configurations. Three that I know of are supposedly P18 .38 super mag with “tweaked lips“, single stack .38 super, and single stack 9mm (for the CCO 9/TCM9R).

My double stacks did occasionally have issues running 9mm that might have been because the rounds were shifting. It’s not an unreasonable speculation anyway. Off the top of my head I can’t remember really using 9mm in the single stack...I probably did just to make sure it worked, but I didn’t buy four of the TCM 1911s because I wanted to run 9mm.

 

[Jim Watson]

You could do a little research.
Will a regular .38 Super fit the breech face? You could even trim a Super to 19mm and make a feed dummy.
If not, as said, there are several rimless options including 9x23 Win.

Jeff Cooper's Embarrassing Question: What is it to be FOR?
Do you want full house 9x23 Win ballistics or something in between that and 9mm P?

If the former, I have read on the internet that one should be sure to get the original chamber design with long throat; the Colt/SAAMI chamber with shorter "freebore" will give higher pressures.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I like Ed's suggestion to ream the 9mm barrel.

 

[MikeInOr]

My first reaction is I wouldn't do it.

So I looked up the case pressure of the 22 TCM and 9x23, they are both 55,000 psi. Hmmm... I am still not sure "I" would do it but identical case pressures makes it a lot less scary. Yes, it would be cool to have a 9mm, 22 TCM and 9x23 all in one 1911. Do you really think you would shoot 9x23 much? Are you a competition shooter?

 

[fxvr5]

So I looked up the case pressure of the 22 TCM and 9x23, they are both 55,000 psi.

Where did you find this? The 22 TCM's parent case from the .223, and the .223 has a pressure limit of 55,000 psi, but other sources say the 22 TCM is loaded to 40,000 psi.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/7/27/tested-the-22-tcm-cartridge/
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/3/28/review-the-22-tcm-cartridge/

 

[MikeInOr]

Where did you find this? The 22 TCM's parent case from the .223, and the .223 has a pressure limit of 55,000 psi, but other sources say the 22 TCM is loaded to 40,000 psi.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/7/27/tested-the-22-tcm-cartridge/
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/3/28/review-the-22-tcm-cartridge/

Of course, just because it is on the internet doesn't make it true. But these are the figures I looked at.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01HoSBp1wIbOM5ACHWlsgN2o5Sxlw:1594227014880&ei=RvkFX9yhNYH1-gT27Z6gBw&q=22+tcm+pressure&oq=22+tcm+pressure&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDICCAAyBggAEAgQHjoECAAQR1DmFFjmFGCYIWgAcAJ4AIABZYgBZZIBAzAuMZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjc3Ka3jr7qAhWBup4KHfa2B3QQ4dUDCAw

It looks like I should have done a bit more reading:
Keep in mind that the .22 TCM isn’t a SAAMI-approved cartridge yet, so no “standards,” such as a M.A.P., currently exist for it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=9x2...rome..69i57.3371j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
The strengthened case allows the 9×23mm Winchester to operate under a higher internal pressure, 55,000 psi (measured with a piezoelectric transducer), in comparison to the maximum pressure of 36,500 psi for the .38 Super (current SAAMI standards)

 

[fxvr5]

Of course, just because it is on the internet doesn't make it true. But these are the figures I looked at.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01HoSBp1wIbOM5ACHWlsgN2o5Sxlw:1594227014880&ei=RvkFX9yhNYH1-gT27Z6gBw&q=22+tcm+pressure&oq=22+tcm+pressure&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDICCAAyBggAEAgQHjoECAAQR1DmFFjmFGCYIWgAcAJ4AIABZYgBZZIBAzAuMZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjc3Ka3jr7qAhWBup4KHfa2B3QQ4dUDCAw

It looks like I should have done a bit more reading:
Keep in mind that the .22 TCM isn’t a SAAMI-approved cartridge yet, so no “standards,” such as a M.A.P., currently exist for it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=9x2...rome..69i57.3371j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
The strengthened case allows the 9×23mm Winchester to operate under a higher internal pressure, 55,000 psi (measured with a piezoelectric transducer), in comparison to the maximum pressure of 36,500 psi for the .38 Super (current SAAMI standards)

The first article in your top search says, "With a maximum average pressure (M.A.P.) of 55,000 p.s.i., the .223 Rem. case is also robust—especially in the critical web area. Achieving 2000 f.p.s. with a 40-gr., 0.224"-diameter, jacketed-hollow-point bullet from a 5"-barreled M1911 pistol is no easy feat; in fact, factory ammunition is currently loaded to around 40,000 p.s.i."

That is what I said. "The 22 TCM's parent case from the .223, and the .223 has a pressure limit of 55,000 psi, but other sources say the 22 TCM is loaded to 40,000 psi."

Western Powder's TCM powder load data shows them top out in the 38,000s for the 22 TCM, reinforcing the notion that the max pressure for the 22 TCM is 40,000. https://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/load_data_TCM.pdf

Yes, the 9X23 Winchester has a max SAAMI pressure limit of 55,000.
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf And, as you note, the 22 TCM is not yet a SAAMI-registered round.

 

[MikeInOr]

The first article in your top search says, "With a maximum average pressure (M.A.P.) of 55,000 p.s.i., the .223 Rem. case is also robust—especially in the critical web area. Achieving 2000 f.p.s. with a 40-gr., 0.224"-diameter, jacketed-hollow-point bullet from a 5"-barreled M1911 pistol is no easy feat; in fact, factory ammunition is currently loaded to around 40,000 p.s.i."

That is what I said. "The 22 TCM's parent case from the .223, and the .223 has a pressure limit of 55,000 psi, but other sources say the 22 TCM is loaded to 40,000 psi."

Western Powder's TCM powder load data shows them top out in the 38,000s for the 22 TCM, reinforcing the notion that the max pressure for the 22 TCM is 40,000. https://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/load_data_TCM.pdf

Yes, the 9X23 Winchester has a max SAAMI pressure limit of 55,000.
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf And, as you note, the 22 TCM is not yet a SAAMI-registered round.

Yes, I got it wrong! I put a strike through the text in my original post.

 

[Jdcujo]

Dont know about the 9x23 dims fitting without modification.
But the breechface can be opened to 38 super very carefully, and the extractor can be touched up also to fit the rim. Did it to mine, so far with no issues so far as factory ammo ( reloads I'm still working on ) and when going back to 9mm have had no issues. Havent played with the 22tcm, cant find ammo go figure .