Cook or Rifleman ?

[444]

A couple months ago, I was flipping through The Shotgun News when I stumbled across the ad for Fred's Military M14 Stocks. In the ad, he discussed whether you were a cook or a rifleman. I am not going to go into details about it, you can read it for yourself in Shotgun News or on Fred's website: www.fredsm14stocks.com

Anyway, Fred is all for people learning to actually shoot their rifles. He sets a standard of being able to hit a man sized target, from any position, at 500 yards. He calls this The Rifleman's Quarter Mile.
And, in order to see that you attain this level of skill, Fred puts out targets for you to practice on. He calls them, The Quick and Dirty AQT.
Fred says that in order to hit a man sized target at 500 yards, you need to keep all your shots in a 20" circle at 500 yards. This represents a 4 MOA group. According to Fred, this should be doable with any service rifle and milsurp ammo. Fred realizes that many, if not most people don't have access to a 500 yard rifle range, so he makes it easy with his targets. He requres you to shoot into a 4 MOA group at 25 meters. Yes, that's right. You shoot Fred's tagets at 25 meters and the targets are reduced down in size to simulate that you are firing at a much longer range. That way, everyone that has access to a 25 yard range (where it is safe to shoot a rifle) can perfect the BASIC skills needed to hit a target at 500 yards.
Obviously there are going to be things you miss out on, like doping the wind, or knowing your zero for the various ranges. This can't be helped. However, you will learn to shoot from positions, learn to use your sling, and learn the fundamentals of marksmanship like sight picture, sight alignment, and trigger squeeze.
He then offers you a ranking based on your score: nothing, marksman, Sharpshooter, or Rifleman.
I wanted to learn how to shoot a rifle the right way. I have been shooting for over 30 years, but most of it was done with pistols. I always owned rifles, but I basically used them for plinking, or shot them off a rest. So, I ordered up a set of Fred's targets. Included with those targets is a stack of paperwork describing how to correctly shoot a rifle which I think are pretty good.
So far, I have tried it about six times. A few times I actually scored high enough to make rifleman. I feel that I learned a lot in the process and plan on continuing with this indefinitelly. I am blessed with the ability to go out and shoot very easily. I have been trying to view this like going to the gym. I come home from work. Grab my gear and go out for less than an hour and shot the qualification. I then come back home and actually go to the gym. I am trying to make it something I do every day.

I would love to hear from other people who have done this or are doing this or would be interested in comparing notes on-line about our progress to becomong riflemen.
I am not using this as a substitue for formal match shooting. Rather, I am using this as a vehicle to practice between formal matches. I am not yet involved in Highpower shooting. My club is supposed to have it's range done withint the next month or two and I am going to start. However, in the rifle matches I shot, I have noted a definite improvement due to my practice with these targets. I actually won my first ever rifle match after starting this program.

In summary, if you are tired of shooting beer cans and want to learn to really shoot a rifle, this might be a good first step.

 

[alcmaeon]

Fred's is a nice place to deal with. I have one of his surplus synth stocks on my M1A and it cut an average of 1 1/2 inches off my group size compared to the Springfields stock that came with the rifle. Not bad for a $35 stock. I also picked up the 25 yard targets and shoot them from time to time. You are correct, it may be short range but it IS difficult to keep that score high.

 

[Ian]

I have a bunch of his AQT target sets. I shot several last summer, and came really close to expert several times. I tend to alternate between practicing at 25 yards and 225 yards (the longest range readily available to me). Sooner or later I'll try another set of AQTs...hopefully I can make expert with a decent margin now. If so, I think I'll get one of Fred's t-shirts.

My goals for rifle shooting are pretty much identical to his - 4MOA from any position. I've got a ways to go, but I'm making progress. I've recently started being able to consistently hit camo-ed* silhouettes at 225 yards (from prone), and I love the feeling of actually being able to do that with iron sights.

My shooting background is in bullseye pistol, and the skills I'm learning there have been a huge boon to my rifle shooting. The biggest fundamental I still need to work on is setting my sights. I need to make a table of where my POI is at various ranges with various sight settings. I use an M1, so it shouldn't be that hard, but mine is cut down and in .308, so it's a bit different than the norm.

* I make my silhouettes from discarded cardboard boxes, and it turns out that the dirt behind the target stands at my range is almost exactly the same color as the cardboard. At first I went to the trouble of putting a big white aiming point on them, but later decided that a low-visibility target made for better practice.

 

[SOT_II]

There is a certain incorrectness in thinking that firing at a "shotert distance" with "scaled to targets" means anything.

1. The bullets are not "scaled" to the distance.

2. Small errors made at close distances are magnified at longer ranges. Just the nautre of physics.

3. The trajectory is MUCH different, the wind and drift are much different, mirrage is a factor. Being able to "dope" for them is as much of the skill of shooting as anything.

4. Certainly any way to get practice is good but don't kid yourself it's no where near the same.

 

[Ian]

If you use the center of the bullet hole for scoring (instead of the edge of the hole), the bullet scale issue is eliminated.

As for the other factors, the intent of this 25 yard practice is to become able to point the rifle precisely where you want it and fire there. That ability is by far the most significant factor in accuracy. Everything else (wind, drop, etc) can be adjusted for without too much difficulty once you can point that barrel where you want it. Certainly shooting at 25 and 500 yards are different ball games, but not that different.

Shooting from sandbags lets you sidestep a lot of rifle skills. Those guys at the range shooting 1MOA groups with benched bolt rifles and 9x scopes...how well can they shoot standing with iron sights? The difference is in the skills that you can get with lots of 25-yard practice.

 

[mons meg]

As any Marine on this board will tell you, (ok, maybe just me) the easiest 10 shots of the Known Distance course in the 2nd phase of basic training are the ones from the 500m line. These are prone, naturally, shot into the "B-mod" silhouette. I made up enough points at the 500 to get my Expert badge.

Is Fred saying you should be able to do the same from the offhand, sitting, or kneeling type positions?

 

[444]

"Is Fred saying you should be able to do the same from the offhand, sitting, or kneeling type positions?"

No, but he is saying that you should be able to shoot a 4 MOA group at 500 yards offhand......... I guess.
The various targets are all on one sheet. But the targets are different sizes. The targets are all "dog" targets. The first one is the biggest and you fire 10 shots off hand. I think it simulates off-hand at 200 yards. Next you have a smaller target and it is rapid fire, standing to sitting. You load two rounds in the magazine. You go from standing to sitting, fire two rounds and do a magazine change. The next target is smaller than the last one and is rapid fire prone. Same drill, only standing to prone. The last target is the smallest and it is almost just a black dot for my eyes. It is slow fire prone. I think it is sized to simulate slow fire prone at 600 yards.
So, he doesn't expect you to do the same from all positions. As the position becomes more stable, the target gets smaller.

SOT_II. I realize all that, and I think I mentioned that in my original post. Again, this isn't designed to be the do all and end all of rifle shooting. It is simply a way to practice when you don't have access to a full sized rifle range. It is also a great way for a novice like myself to practice while eliminating some of the things I need to worry about. It takes away some of those variables you mention and concentrates on the basics. As he says, it is quick and dirty. I can leave my house, shoot the course and be back home in less than an hour.

The rifles I have been doing this with (M1, M1A, 1903A3) are rifles that I have shot on known distance courses out to 800 yards. I have a pretty good idea of my sight dope out to that distance, wrote it down, and have it in the stock. I compete with my '03A3 in a monthly steel plate match out to 400 yards. So, I realize this isn't exactly the same. However, if you can hold hard enough to shoot tight groups on Fred's target, and you know your sight dope for the actual range, you will hit it at the real distance.
Bullet diameter: keep in mind that on that small slow fire prone target, you almost have to be stacking your bullets to get 5 points.

 

[SOT_II]

If you use the center of the bullet hole for scoring (instead of the edge of the hole), the bullet scale issue is eliminated.

If you would like, I'll invite you down to my personal 500 yard range, we will shoot at 25 yards and again at 500 yards. You will not come close to getting the same groups with the same gun, ESPECIALLY if you do c-t-c gorups. I shoot from 25 to 800 yards on a weekly basis for work...there is no real cross over.

As well the technology required to make an rifle accurate at 500 yards is different than a rifle that may hold it's accuracy at 25 yards..
Basic "marksmenship" skills (if that's what you are after) can be had without even firing a shot. The "dime" trick at short distances is nearly as effective as anything you'll "learn" printing groups at 25 yards and somehow thinking that's going to get you scores at 500 yards.

Essentially if you are "learning" on the gun to the point where you can't print groups at 25 yards, your practice is helping you with that and giving you time on the gun...that's about it.

Simple example:
I have a bolt action .22 rimfire rifle...it prints .25 inches all day at 50 yards indoors. Should I assume that since I am a wonder at 50 yards indoors that this rifle is a sub MOA gun? Should I just say that hey I can hit .25 at 50 yards, it will do .50 at 100, it should do 1 inch at 200 yards? In theory my "math" would be correct but most know that's not the reality.

Lastly I think it is wrong (and I know it's a standard convention) to call guns Sub MOA if they are not shooting under 1.047 inches AT 100 yards, minimum.
I know it sound cool and so many people do it...but really you can only "proof" a sub MOA gun at a distance.
Heck I have an airgun that costs about $3K, it puts all other rifles on this planet save maybe my bench rest rail gun...and at 50 yards, it's under a half inch on a good day...easy...but it's not a SUB MOA gun...never will be.

 

[444]

SOT_II
I think you are taking this too far.
I believe that Fred's intention, and my intention in posting this thread is simply to get more people out to learn to become good rifle shooters. For the umptenth time, I realize this is not a substitue for shooting at 600 yards (or whatever). But, if you don't have a 600 yard range to practice on, then this teaches you something.
Yeah, you can get a lot of good practice dry firing. If you understand what you are doing and can call your shots. This is more fun and puts the results on paper.

I get the impression that you are saying that unless you can shoot at 500 yards or whatever then don't even bother trying to become a better shot. And this simply is not the case. Shooting an air rifle in your basement helps you become a better shot. Shooting a .22 rifle on paper helps you become a better shot. Shooting this target at 25 meters helps you become a better shot. And all the skills nessessary to do any of that stuff translates directly to shooting at 500 yards. Yes, there are more skills you need to master to shoot at 500 yards, but those skills are IN ADDITION to the skills you leanred by firing that air rifle in the basement. The basic fundamentals of marksmanship can be learned at close range; no question about it.
Even if I had easy access to a 500 yard range and was a novice rifle shooter, I wouldn't start right out to try to learn the basics at 500 yards. That would be overload. You can certainly take this a step at a time, learn in bite sized chunks and build on the foundation. You learn the basic fundamentals. You learn the positions. You learn how to use your sling. etc. After you master these basics you can then move on to things like wind, mirage and all that. I see no point in trying to do it all at once and becoming overwhelmed.

"...we will shoot at 25 yards and again at 500 yards. You will not come close to getting the same groups with the same gun, ESPECIALLY if you do c-t-c gorups."
Of course not. I think everyone realizes this. In order to clean this target, you have to shoot into less than an inch at 25 meters. His goal is that if you can shoot into an inch at 25 meters, you can shoot into 20 inches at 500 meters. I realize that errors are magnified the farther out you go. I realize that other factors come into play that make your groups even larger and going from one distance to the other is not a direct progression. However, so you advocate not even trying if you can't shoot on a 500 yard range ? What is wrong with gaining the skill set needed to shoot into an inch at 25 meters ?

 

[SOT_II]

And my thoughts are as I have stated, shooting is improved by quality shooting.

But if I read your post right he is saying that by doing this "short course" you should be able to do the same at the long course...and I am saying there is NO WAY that short course is going to get you much of anything past any distance over 200 yards.

If you want to practice basic marksmanship and are not shooting the course of fire at real distances, you can nearly get the same practice in your own house with no ammo.

Take your service rifle, get into your position, take your sight picture, have some one place a dime on your barrel (tangent to the axis of the bore) and dry fire.
You'll be "learning" the fundamentals of marksmanship without the muss and fuss of leaving your house. But again the qualifier is "nearly"...but if you want ot hit man sized targets at 500 yards...or shoot 4 MOA at 500 yards...you'll only actually get to that by actually doing it, substitutions are a fools game.

I can go on more about how the difference in TRADOC between the Army and the Marines is so great that on average the Marines shoot so much better because they are doing "at distance" and the Army generally isn't.
I can go on about in our training and consulting done at Ft. Benning, the failings of not practicing at distance have been sorely illuminated ( recent combat experiences of our troops also prove this out)- and sadly I'm an Army man saying this.
The Marines are generally better riflemen because the train and practice to be riflemen...and even in an Army MOS like 11B, the Army tends to fall far behind their Marine counterparts.


It's a simple axiom of Palma; you improve your Palma scores by shooting Palma. Everything else is just making noise.

Hey I'm not saying don't practice as much as you can at any distance that you can squeeze in...I'm just saying that don't kid yourself on how much it's going to get you.
If you learned a lot shooting short, you'll learn even more shooting long.

 

[SOT_II]

No don't care what distance you are a good shot at, I'm saying that don't kid yourself into thinking that shooting short is going to do that much for you shooting long - The original thrust of, "simulating a much longer range."

Simple put it doesn't. It may make you focus on fendementals by taking away a bunch of variables that confuse you (not you but the general "you") but it is not the same by any length.

That's all... Iam all for practicing..I practice all the time with all kinds of guns and at all kinds of distances...heck I even mount Nightforce scopes on my airguns and shoot that "mini sniper" game all the time...it's tough...but it's not the real deal...

 

[444]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it.
But, I don't think it takes a whole lot away from this short range target. Hey, it is fun. I find it challenging. That is why I own guns and shooting them: to have fun and challenge myself.

I also took Fred's advice and got a couple of my local friends into this also. I went out shooting with them and it was the same old story. They brought a whole bunch of cool guns with them and no targets. They were just going to plink at junk in the desert. They were more interested in buying guns than they were in learning to shoot them. I pulled out these targets and explained to them how it worked. One guy said, yeah that looks like fun. Some time we will have to bring out something to lay on and try it. I said, no, we are going to try it right now and I brought something to lay on. So, we did. They thought it was a lot of fun. It showed them that they had serious shortcomings as riflemen and they wanted to get better. IMO, the fact that it was structured with a set course of fire and scoring guidelines helped get them interested. They had a standard by which to judge their skill and their progress. They both said they were going to order some targets and wanted to make shooting them a regular thing.
To me, this was the whole point of the targets. To get rifle owners to become rifle shooters.
There is no way that either one of these guys is going to make the time and effort to attend a formal highpower match. But, they will do this.

Personally, I don't find plinking to be all that much fun. I do it on occasion, but I am more interested in increasing my skill and challenging myself to get better. In today's society, we simply don't have very many long range rifle facilities. Here where I live, the closest real rifle range is about 70 miles away. You have to be a member to shoot there. And it is kind of a PITA because you have to contend with all the other shooters that are there. I am a member and try to compete there as often as possible, but these guys won't. This little shooting game however gave them the motivation to become better rifle shooters and gives us something fun to do with guns that we can do together. And, it determines who buys lunch at the end of the shooting session.

 

[Steve Smith]

I think that most all Master and High Master Highpower and Palma shooters will tell you that the short course IS beneficial if shot on hard enough targets. The standard Highpower 200 yard course is a pretty tough course, and if you can't clean it you can't clean the full course for sure. Many Palma and HP shooters shoot Smallbore or what is now called "Mini Palma" on an A51 target (50 meters) that is REALLY tough. When you shoot on that regularly you will learn all about a SOLID position and then when you step out to 600 or farther all you have to think about is wind. X after X in succession at distance comes much easier if you have been training on a very tough short course.

 

[cracked butt]

I would have to take issue with what SOT is saying. I would bet that a good smallbore competitor could easily transition to shooting targets 500 yards away.

 

[fistful]

What are you guys talking about? I practice shooting with my finger pistol all day long, and I always hit the neighbor, friend, road sign, coworker, animal, or car that I am aiming at, regardless of distance.

 

[atek3]

i agree with steve and cracked butt. Being able to hold a rifle perfectly still and release the shot without moving the sights is a skill that translates to any range shooting. hitting a postage stamp with an iron sighted m1a at 25 meters seems like a joke until you try it. When you can keep all your shots on the postage stamp, I guarantee once you learn to adjust for wind and drop you'll be ringing the 500 yd gong in no time.

atek3

 

[Steve Smith]

Not to disagree with Atek3, but even a postage stamp at 25 would be easy compared to Smallbore targets, The 50 Meter A51 has an x ring about the size of a pencil eraser and a 10 ring about a third larger. If you can hold that consistently, you can easily shoot High Master scores at 600 yards with some wind knowledge.

 

[Joe Demko]

Without an optical sight, I don't think I can even see a pencil eraser-sized object at 50 meters! My hat is off to shooters who can hit something that sized consistently with iron sights.

 

[mons meg]

Without an optical sight, I don't think I can even see a pencil eraser-sized object at 50 meters! My hat is off to shooters who can hit something that sized consistently with iron sights.

IMO, the hardest 5 shots on the Marine KD course are the 5 rounds sitting against a 12 inch bullseye at 300m. When you focus on the front sight post and blur the target...it disappears. The PMI will tell you "shoot the center of the blur". Well, by golly, that works! I dont' have spectacular vision, but 2 weeks at Camp Pendleton turned me into a respectable shot with an M16. It's all technique, and the Marines have it down to a science. I think Yoda once said "you must unlearn what you hav learned..."

 

[Dr.Rob]

400 yards is a long way with a scope. I've killed a few antelope out that far, and it's tough.

I know it can be done with iron sights, heck I've watched Steve do it. Steve's also watched me screw my brow in confusion trying to get my 1903 to shoot remotely at what I'm aiming at.

One of these days I need to sit down with one of you marines and figure out how to use apeture sights... 'cuz I really don't have it figured out. I' read Pilaster's book... I've tried really. It just doesn't seem to 'work' for me.

We shot at 'reduced' size targets to simulate longer range... I was having a hard time getting on target at the 200 yard mark. If I had been shooting buckhorn sights I likely would have shot better, because that's what I learned on.

Heck I an shoot 4 moa -very close to it with shotgun slugs off the bench, that doesn't mean it's a 500 yard rifle.

Guess I'm still a cook... how do you want your venison?

 

[SOT_II]

Any shooter that is a competitor of some nature is going to have an advantage when crossing over...if for no other reason than sitting a line...that being said the issue wasn't that a rifle shooter wouldn't be a good shooter it was the effectiveness of the "cross training" .

Having been a fairly decent airgun 10 meter shooter, moving to small bore, and now onto service rifle and palma...I can tell you from experience that the games are so different...even airgun to small bore that the cross over value is very limited. The over riding issue is I have general time behind the rifles...and that is what makes some of the difference...but saying that hitting a reduced is going to give you the same or near same results at 500 yards is foolish...it's NO WHERE near the same.

If you desire is for fendemental "skills" you can do about as equal with no rounds being fired at all...in fact dry fire shooting is probably one of the BIGGEST training aids to world class shooters in many of the big events...but they don't make the mistake thinking that it's the same as doing the real shooting at the real distances.

I would have to take issue with what SOT is saying. I would bet that a good smallbore competitor could easily transition to shooting targets 500 yards away.

 

[Ian]

FWIW, our gun club faculty advisor here is a 1000-yard open sight shooter (classified as a high master and actively placing in the top 10 at competitions). His practice includes shooting air rifle in his basement and shooting smallbore rifle with our club. Of course those aren't the same as shooting at 1000 yards in match conditions, but they exercise the same fundamental skills...and without those fundamentals, no amount of trajectory knowledge will get you on target.

 

[SOT_II]

And again...no amount of basement shooting or short range shooting is going to get you the scores that shooting at distance will.
The ORIGINAL thrust of this wasn't that practice hurts, it was that shooting at short distances is somehow equal to shooting long distance...which it isn't.

If it was every smallbore shooter would be topline in palma. There is a decidedly different skill set and knowledge used for bot shooting styles.

To put it in as simple terms as possible:

Smallbore shooting, you have a sight picture and sight alingment that is TOTALY different than that of a service rifle or palma or other "distance games".

If you hold your sight picture that you use in small bore and try and use that in distance shooting you won't even hit the target. Hold center and calm for center in distance shooting you'll lose. So right there that is a concrete example of how shooting close and shooting long are totally different.

Time on the tirgger won't hurt but you can't say...hey I shot this group at 25 yards so at 500 I would have this group...no way shape or form.

 

[spartacus2002]

I use Fred's AQT targets, and they are great for getting the fundamentals down.

 

[GD]

Don't forget to practice shooting off hand. Since I hunt, I want to make sure that I can be accurate from any shooting position. I know many people who shoot only off a bench and get great groups but consistently miss a deer. I find that skeet shooting helps me hit moving targets. Last year I shot a deer that was running at full speed about 50 yards away. Got him through the heart with two shots that were 2 inches apart.