Cook or Rifleman ?

[VG]

Anyway, Fred is all for people learning to actually shoot their rifles. He sets a standard of being able to hit a man sized target, from any position, at 500 yards. He calls this The Rifleman's Quarter Mile.

Our Army - most Armies - have conducted studies on the realities of combat. According to U.S. Army studies dating back to the Korean War and cited on the U.S. Army's Infantry School forum, over 70% of combat occurs at 100 meters or less, and more than 90% occurs at 200 meters or less.

If you doubt this, just ask a friend to go out on just about 200 meters and shoot at you. Or do it with lasers like the Army does in training. You will find that just about any tiny fold of the earth will hide you, as long as you are willing to crawl around on your belly. From this vantage point, it is very difficult to see who is shooting at you.

So, the ability to hit a target at 500 yards may translate into practical combat skills. but whether it is the best way to train is another question.

 

[444]

GD, this is the whole point Fred is trying to make. You learn to shoot from positions, and learn to use a shooting sling. According to Fred, "Rifleman NEVER use a bench". You zero from prone. Shooting from prone actually gives you some practice and gives you a better zero for actual use.

VG. I am not sure where you are going with this. I am not sure we are talking about combat prior to this, but that shouldn't stop us from doing so now. First of all, there is no substitue for learning the basics of marksmanship. That should be the foundation for further training. Shooting without hitting is just making noise. You may never have to take a shot in the field at 500 yards, but if your skills were good enough to do so, a shot at 100 yards or across the room should be easy.

I have never understood the idea or purposely limiting your training and thus limiting your skills because the percentages say you will never need that skill. As I have said on many handgun threads: Let's say the average shooting is inside of seven yards. Ok, great. What if you become invovled in a self defense situation outside of seven yards ? What if you are the only one in the history of mankind to ever have this happen, can you handle it ? Or did you put all your eggs in one basket and only train to the lowest common denominator ?
I am "into" the shooting sports. I like to train and try to learn new things. Let's say that I read that the average distance in combat is less than 100 yards and I was actually interested in training for combat. So, I train inside 100 yards. Week after week I train. A year later I can take the eye brows off a nat inside 100 yards from any position including standing on my head. I can do it in the blink of an eye. Ok, now what ? Is it OK if I say to myself, self, now that I mastered that, I am going to learn to do the same thing out to 200 yards ? Or am I forced to accept the lowest common denominator ?
In your example you mention that if someone is trying to hide from you at 200 yards, they can, pretty easily. But, if they are going to fire at you, they are going to have to expose themselves. This means that you are going to be shooting at a much smaller target than the same man standing at 200 yards. This demands more skill with the rifle. Obviously, if you can hit a man sized target at 500 yards, this would make hitting just the head and shoulders of a man at 200 yards all the more possible.

 

[cracked butt]

If you doubt this, just ask a friend to go out on just about 200 meters and shoot at you. Or do it with lasers like the Army does in training. You will find that just about any tiny fold of the earth will hide you, as long as you are willing to crawl around on your belly.

VG has a good point.

For some of my plinking/offhand practice, I'll take a K98 and shoot off hand at 5 gallon buckets at 200 yards. The rand I shoot at is pretty flat, but there are some small irregularities in the field. From a standing position, only about the top 2/3 of the bucket is visible. from a prone postion, only about the top 1/2 of it is visible.

 

[Mannlicher]

I can shoot a 4 MOA Group at 500 yards from the prone position, or sitting, or at a bench rest. I cannot do it standing on my hind legs. Frankly, not many can.

 

[444]

"VG has a good point."

Oh, don't get me wrong. He makes a great point. One that I have brought up on this board many times. I have said the same thing when people start bagging on the M16 or M4 not being capable of putting men down at ridiculous ranges. In the past I have said that #1 most people can't hit a man at long range. #2) the guy isn't just going to be standing there in correct anatomical position waiting on you to shoot him (he is going to be moving, you are going to be moving, if he has any sense he is going to be using cover and concealment, odds are that YOU are going to be under fire when you are trying to make the shot............................). But, that doesn't mean that you can't try to become good enough to do it if the conditons cooperate.
I learned long ago that in the field, you often can't even see the target from a good solid postion. I know that when hunting, I have never been able to shoot from a position any more steady than kneeling. In this milsurp rifle match I try to shoot, half the course is shot during a "walk about". You walk from point to point and then engage the targets however you can. The brush is much too high to shoot from prone or usually even sitting.

"I cannot do it standing on my hind legs. Frankly, not many can."
I agree, that is a VERY optimistic goal. I certainly wouldn't even think about doing it on a regular basis with my meager skills. But, it is a goal to strive for never the less.

 

[Jim K]

I don't want to get into this too deep, but there is a heckuva lot of difference between shooting a silhouette target at any range and shooting back at someone who is shooting at you and doesn't want to be seen.

Without a scope, it is hard to even see a man at 500 yards, unless he is on the skyline or wearing a black suit and standing in front of a snowbank.

I agree that any practice is good, and I agree that hitting those small targets at 25 yards does help improve marksmanship. But the reality is something different. Most military rifles get 2-4 MOA, and 4 MOA (4" at 100 yards) was and still is the minimum acceptance standard. But anyone who assumes that a 4" group at 100 yards will always and automatically translate to a 20" group at 500 just has not done a lot of long range shooting. And a 20" group is not very good since even with everything else perfect (sure!), any given bullet can be 10" away from center mass, which could mean a complete miss.

Yes, when you don't have a long range and want to get in some simulation, do the 25 yard thing. But don't kid yourself that you are a great long range shooter if you score well at that distance.

Jim

 

[444]

I appreciate the activity on this thread and hope more people give it a try and post their results and opinions.

I also hope that this doesn't turn into a thread about combat rifle shooting or military use of firearms. That was not my intent. I simply want to become a better rifle shooter. And, I am looking for fun ways to do it.
I realize that if you read Fred's stuff, he gets into a lot of SHTF type of stuff. I have nothing against all that and even think it is fun to discuss. But, that is not what I am after in this venture.

 

[Jim K]

Well, Fred is in the "black helicopters are coming" group, and I don't want to give him a lot of credence. Some of his ideas on rifle shooting are fine, though I do sometimes wonder how much experience he has or if it is all hot air. (No, I have not asked him, and don't really care.)

I admit to very limited experience in that kind of shooting. When I did my service time, the targets were round, black, and printed on white paper. Since I was never in combat, I never saw an enemy soldier, but I rather doubt they would wear white clothing with big black circles on their chests and just stand there while being shot at.

I have done some 500 yard shooting, and even a little 1000 yard shooting. The latter is more a matter of equipment than shooter capability. I never did become world champion, maybe because I couldn't hit much at those ranges, although I don't mean to imply no one else can.

Jim

 

[444]

Well, not that it matters, but I frequent another board where at least one guy knows Fred personally. He doesn't have a lot of good things to say about Fred due to some kind of rift in their local shooting club. But, at no time did this guy ever question Fred's ability with a rifle.
Also, please don't get me wrong: I don't know Fred from Adam. I fully realize that Fred has not invented anything new: the information that Fred puts out about shooting is very well known and has been widely published for a century. I just happened to enjoy shooting his targets. I was hoping that maybe some other people who desire to become better rifle shooters would also.
I don't really care about the rest of it.

 

[444]

I got out today and shot a Quick and Dirty AQT with my O3A3 hoping to get better prepared for this weekend's vinatage bolt action rifle match.
Didn't do very well. Even after I took an alibi and re-shot two of the stages when I realized I needed to adjust my sights.
I shot a score of 171 which barely makes Sharpshooter. I guess it is back to the mess hall for me. At least I am not washing dishes.
I am trying to save the targets I shoot to see if I am improving. This is what I have done so far.
10/06 171 (1903A3) Sharpshooter
09/29 199 (M1A) Sharpshooter
08/24 225 (1903A3) Rifleman !!!!
07/21 203 (M1A) Sharpshooter
07/08 170 (1903A3) Sharpshooter


I have shot a few more, but I guess I didn't save them. I know I shot a few with an M1.
As you see, I have not been able to do this as often as I had hoped. But, I am still trying to do this at least a couple days a week.

 

[BruceB]

Gentlemen, a very interesting discussion, carried out in gentlemanly fashion.

My two bits:

The whole thrust of Fred's campaign with the AQT target program is to turn out well-qualified riflemen capable of efficiently using COMBAT rifles in a SHTF situation.

Taking that into consideration, the real value of the program (in my estimation) is that we riflemen will spend a LOT of time actually firing battle-capable rifles that we own, in demanding target exercises. It should be apparent that extensive practice with our personal rifles, experiencing the noise and recoil, managing the magazine loading and mag changes, and clearing malfunctions if they occur, are infinitely more valuable than dry-firing.

I agree that dry-firing is an incredibly valuable tool for marksmanship training, but it doesn't give us the training in managing a powerful rifle which we get from firing the short-distance course as laid out in Fred's AQT.

I submit that a rifleman who spends some considerable time TRYING to qualify on this close-range AQT is a rifleman much more to be respected than one who spends an equal amount of time dry-firing. Even if the shooter in question NEVER shoots "expert", he will be be a person who can handle his rifle well, and in some cases extremely well, and this probably will place him well ahead of the general shooting level of most active-service military personnel. This isn't a slam agianst our troops, but just to point out that in-service training faces many time/cost constraints which prevent our service people from getting enough range and training time to become as good with a rifle as they should be.

Dry firing should be a part of a rifleman's regimen, but I do not believe it is as useful in THIS particular case as time spent actually firing our personal rifles......even at short range.

The "MOA" comments puzzle me. MOA is simply a measure of dispersion of the shot group, and if a rifle is making sub-0.5" at fifty yards, then pards, it IS an MOA rifle AT THAT DISTANCE. It certainly is true that the vast majority of rifles don't offer a simple arithmetic progression of group size as the range increases. If your rifle reliably groups 1.0" at 100 yards, it probably will NOT group within 2.0" at 200, nor 6.0" at 600 yards. More likely, it will display an increasingly-large dispersion as range increases, for example maybe 2.5 or 3.0 inches at 200, and eight, nine, or more inches at 600. However, I'd say that a fairly high percentage of decent service-type rifles could meet the test of hitting the 20" target at 500, even from various shooting positions.

I believe Fred's AQT is aimed at people firing rifles with some intrinsic accuracy, such as Garands, M1as, AR15s and the like, because certainly the AK and SKS series don't really offer the extended-range capabilities envisioned by the program. I don't even know if they are capable of shooting well-enough to qualify at the 25-yard distance. However, I refer you to my first comment, and if what you have is an AK, shoot the course anyway, and get as good as you can! It will be time well spent, and fun in the bargain. It's like golf, in that we always play against our personal record and try to beat it the next time out.

I am enjoying this thread!

 

[1911Ron]

I've been following this thread at work(can't post at work ) and would like to add that we shoot at reduced range targets due to range restrictions but its good training. I have a set of Freds targets that i haven't shot yet due to work(9/11 did wonders for over time) but look forward to using them, i feel that they are a good learning tool and should be recognized as to their limits on realism.

 

[444]

FWIW: I mentioned in my last posts that I was trying to get tuned up for an upcoming match.
I ended up taking 4th place in the match using my 1903A3.
My marksmanship was actually good enough to have scored second place, but one stage was timed and my time was third slowest (places 2,3,4 were tied on score and the time is used as a tie breaker).
So, I think this practice is doing me some good. There were probably close to 30 maybe even 40 people shooting in this match including a number of High Power shooters. One thing that bothers me about that match however is that on two of the stages, I called all of my shots right where I wanted them, but I missed. I am now worried about my loads. I switched from using a 150 grain Sierra MatchKing to 147 grain FMJ bought in bulk from Midway. I didn't bother shooting any of them prior to the match. I loaded them with the same powder charge and the same OAL as I did the MatchKings. Ordinarily, I would just chauk this up to my own poor skills. But, I was in a good solid postion, had a good trigger break, followed through and the shots look good to me. Another thing that leads me to believe that my loads wern't up to snuff is that I shot about half the match using what was left of my MatchKing loads and on three of the stages I did great and on two of the stages I had the problem mentioned before. IF I would have hit all those targets that I thought I made good shots on, I would have won the match by a wide margin. It should also be noted that if I was having a problem with my loads, that this probably wouldn't show up at 25 meters. I could practice all I wanted at 25 meters and never know I had a problem until I shot at the real range (in this case 300 yards).
Hopefully, I am soon going to get some real rifle training by participating in High Power. I was informed at this match that they had finished the new High Power range and had already shot a match, but they didn't know how to contact me to tell me about it. I don't know when that is going to get fully off the ground, but hopefully soon. Of course I need to buy the gear for it and it ain't cheap. I guess I will have to go back to working a lot of overtime to pay for it

 

[goon]

I understand the concept behind these exercises and it is a good idea, but I am wondering if the title isn't a little off.
Cook or Rifleman?
Someone has to feed the Rifleman.

 

[444]

Right
That is the people who can't qualify with their rifles.
Like me.
Do you want fries with that ?

 

[azrael]

444,
a "rift"?? at the local club?? man I could tell ya STORIES!!!!....The former Riverside Gun Club is like 10 minutes from my house...

Fred has a decent enough idea about "creating rifleman" and he is a pretty good shot himself....I just think he takes the UN crap a bit far at times...

 

[goon]

I can agree that being able to hit a man sized target under range conditions at 500 yards is a pretty good goal.
But...
The last time I was at the range with my FAL, I sat up a pop-up silouhette with a B-27REV target on it. For those who don't know, it is a B-27 qualification target about the size of your upper body, only white instead of black. While I was out there, I looked in at my brother. He was standing at the firing line waiting for me to come back. I could barely see him in street clothes, out in the open, at 300 yards with the woods as a background.
When I got back, I looked out and I could just barely see that huge white target at 300 yards. A little fog had rolled in (it was just starting to become evening but still light enough to see well, with out the fog). But if that had been a man at that range in a camo uniform, I probably wouldn't have seen him. It basically cut my visibility about in half. Just a little fog.
I have noticed the same thing when my brother is setting up targets while he has his field jacket on. Even at 100 yards, with the woods as a background, I sometimes have trouble seeing him. And that is when he is out in the open when he isn't trying to hide from me or shoot me.
I am sure that I can make a solid hit at 300 yards and most likely farther than that, but I haven't tried farther than that yet. Maybe tomorrow.
But that is under ideal conditions with on one shooting back at me.
Somehow, I think that combat would be just a little different.

As for cook or rifleman, not everyone can be a rifleman.
What is it, something like 7 support soldiers to every one combat soldier?
It is true that guerillas would have less overhead, but they will still need alot of support to keep just a few fighters going.

While we are on this subject, has anyone tried using a 22LR on a reduced range as a practice rifle? How well does that work?

 

[VG]

The last time I was at the range with my FAL, I sat up a pop-up silouhette with a B-27REV target on it. For those who don't know, it is a B-27 qualification target about the size of your upper body, only white instead of black. While I was out there, I looked in at my brother. He was standing at the firing line waiting for me to come back. I could barely see him in street clothes, out in the open, at 300 yards with the woods as a background.

In Iraq tanks overwatched or led infantry advances. They were picking off enemy posiitons at 2,500 meters or more, using their optical and thermal sights - while moving at up to 40 mph. Don't forget wht rifles are called "small arms." The coaxial 7.62mm machine gun in an M1 benefits from both optical and thermal sights as well as the laser rangefinder and ballistic calculations of the fire control system. And there's not much an M1 has to hide from.

No doubt that the Infantry is needed to close on the objective and take it. But that's not at 500 meters. Todays Army and Marine Corps fighters can't afford to use training time on romantic notions. Us civilians contribute best to their welfare by paying lots of taxes.

 

[twoblink]

I was able to consistently do 7 out of 10 shots @ 400 yards, against a 24"x36" (2footX3foot) steel plate, with iron sights on my M1A. It drops to about 3 out of 10 @ 500 yards, where I have difficulty seeing the target..

But that's basically the goal, 2x3' steel plate, @500 yards. That to me, is a human torso. It's not easy.. And after a while, my eyes tear up from the hard staring. I've noticed with things like wind etc, the ball game is quite different.

I am not a great shot, so I encourage everything else to be one.

 

[Steve Smith]

I hate it when my internet is down. It looks like I left the conversation. There is far too much to even discuss at this point, lol. I am just going mad trying to hit a few topics. If I ever get consistent THR access again I'll get back with ya'll.

S

 

[444]

Yesterday I went out and shot another Quick and Dirty AQT target along with one of my friends that I got to buy into this program. He ordered the targets and we had at it.
I took one of my CMP M1s and did terrible: and in the process learned a valuable lesson.
I did OK standing, not great, but OK. I did OK on the rapid fire sitting, but then things started to unravel. I noticed that I probably needed to add a little bit of elevation to my sights. So, I gave it two clicks. I shot the rapid prone stage and was still low, so I added a couple more clicks elevation. I shot the slow fire prone stage and didn't get any of my shots in the scoring zones of the target. I picked up my rifle and counted how many clicks of elevation I had dialed in: just as I feared, I was turning the elevation knob the wrong way. This is the second time I had made this same mistake.
This is one of the valuable lessons that I think you can learn simply by getting in some shooting and handling your rifle. You should be getting to know and understand your rifle better. Even with me shooting my rifle more, I am still making dumb mistakes: imagine if I wasn't shooting and just decided that I was plenty good enough and didn't need the practice. This glaring mistake became clearly evident dispite the fact that I was ONLY shooting at 25 meters.
After the shooting session I mentioned to my buddy that there was a match this morning and he should come with me and shoot it. This was a new match, and today was the first day. I have mentioned previously that I have been participating in our local vintage military bolt action rifle match. Today they started a vintage semi-auto match. He agreed to come with me. He has done almost no formal shooting ever: as far as I know, the only formal match he ever competed in was one IPSC match he shot with me a couple years ago.
He shot his FN FAL that he built up from a parts kit. I shot the same CMP M1 that I shot the day before in practice.
You will never guess what happened.
He won.
I took third two shots behind him.
It was a good match with about 30-40 participants. It seemed like everybody shot a good score. Better than I anticipated since this was the first match of it's kind in the area. I figured everyone would be sorting out their rifles and getting their correct sight dope, but I think most people were prepared and put on a good showing.
We shot out to 400 yards on steel plates. We had one moving target at 50 yards. And one timed stage that required the use of a vintage military handgun on a Texas Star before you shot your rifle.
A good time was had by all.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

A couple of us here shoot ntit or a rattle battle match and for me its alot of practice for 1 match a year.
We shoot the man size target from the waste up at 600 yards and 500 yards from the prone position and at 300 yards from the sitting position and 200 yards if needed from standing. you have 6 firing team members and 8 targets to shoot on. the outside two shooters each shoot on the two outside targets and the other four shooters shoot on one target straight in front of them. each member gets 64 rounds equally divided.

It goes something like this YOU get NO alibi's and if your target goes up slow or something goes wrong with your rifle you just fix it and try to keep going.
you get a 3 minute prep at 600 yards and thats it and after the prep the targets go down and a few seconds later you get the command load and be ready. You then load your mag into your rifle and in like around a average of 10 to 12 seconds the targets come up and then they go back down in 50 seconds. You try to get as many hits on the target in those 50 seconds. I load 25 into my mag and that is what I shoot at 600 and 500. and at 300 I shoot the remaning 14 rounds and we should not have anything left after 300.

After the 50 seconds at 600 your targets will come back up for score and then go down and you get up and walk in line to the 500 yard line and do it over again for another 25 rounds or so and then its to the 300 yard line for sitting in those 50 seconds. When you get to the 500 or 300 yard line you just get in position very fast as the targets are going up within around 10 to 20 seconds after you get to the line.

The targets are either a tanish military brown or most of the time a military green uniform color. you shoot weather bad like rain, overcast, bright sun, windy or what ever except fog that does not allow you to shoot due to safety.
So to make it simple for someone on our team you shoot 25 shots in 50 seconds and we field two teams now for the national's and to really make the team you should be hitting around 22 to 25 of the 25 shots on a regular basis. In the try outs alot of them hit 24 to 25 out of 25.
I was selected to fire the swing targets this year and I shoot like 13 on the left outside target and 12 on the second target from the left in 50 seconds. A example of what can go wrong was for me at 500 yards.
The targets came up all except my target I was aiming on so I started to switch to my inboard target right before I did it came up. I fired like two shots and my rifle jammed and I cleared the round and reinserted my mag and loaded it and fired my shots on the left target and then fired on my right target and ended up with 10 hits on each target with one saved round which I fired at 300 with my other 14 rounds. So in that 50 seconds I hit 20 out of 25 with a saved round, slow target and clearing a jam. Yes I would of liked it to of gone smoothly but it did not and I just did what I had to do to get the job done for the team.
So yes i do think you can hit that 20" thing with open sights out to 500 yards and unless the lighting or wind sets you back with practice you can do it also.

 

[444]

I got out today and shot two of Fred's AQT targets. I shot the first one with a Remington 541X (.22 bolt action rifle) that I got from CMP, and I shot the second one with my 1903A3. I scored 190 with the 541X and 194 with the 1903A3. Neither score qualified me as a riflemen, but it is the progress that counts. Each time I do this I feel that I learn a little more about position shooting and the use of my sling.
It is already two weeks away from the next bolt action rifle match: time to start tuning up. I am thinking there should be a CMP match this month which will be my first. I still don't have a spotting scope and don't know if I will have the money for one or not. Hopefully, I can work something out.

As a result of this thread, I got at least one THR member to buy into the concept: he bought the targets from Fred, got them within the last couple days and is preparing to start down the road to becoming a riflemen. He said he had been a pistol shooter until now and was looking forward to learning the ropes on a rifle. He doesn't own a .308 battlerifle, so he is going to start off using his SKS.
That's the spirit.
This brings my total up to two guys who are definitely going to work with these targets and one more possible.

 

[boohsdad]

You have convinced me. Will give it a try in the next couple of weeks. Will let you know how it goes.

 

[SapperLeader]

This has been a great discussion, and it sounds like fun. I consider myself to be fairly proficient with shotgun and pistol, but my rifle skills are subpar(nonexistant in all likihood) for anything beyond close quarters distance. I would like to order some of the targets, but was curious if the combo pack with the rifleman book is worth it, or if I should just get the targets.