Cooper Firearms of Montana PROS & CONS?

[wacki]

Let's try to avoid a blow-up over the Cooper fiasco.

I personally value my freedom and refuse to send a penny to anyone who wants to destroy it. You may think that's silly but that is my point of view. There are plenty of alternatives out there.

 

[Jeff F]

I wont support Cooper Firearms after learning that they support Sen. Obama in his run for Presidency.

It wasn't the company that supported Obama, it was the CEO and I believe he no longer works there. They took care of the problem. That said I do want a Cooper rifle, they are a work of art and a shooter to boot.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

It wasn't the company that supported Obama, it was the CEO and I believe he no longer works there. They took care of the problem.

I find it hilarious but very sad and disturbing that you or anyone would actually buy into this song-and-dance, smoke and mirrors routine. Did he disclaim all of his right, title, and interest to his share of the company? Did he simply give all his stock away, and go take a job down at the local Wendys? No? Then he (individually) is still profiting from OUR money, and then in turn taking that money and giving it to Banobama - and that's *assuming* you believe he actually quit getting up in the morning and coming to work there or having anything to do with the management of the company. It's pure spin, and BS damage control. If you buy into that and let this company slide, then it's a sad day for gun rights.....

 

[3pairs12]

I don't know Premium from what I have heard the company was pretty distraut and asked him to step down. He quickly turned in his letter of resigination. So I think it may be in fact damage control but done the right way.

 

[Art Eatman]

While it's easy to shun products from a small business like Cooper, a person would be hard-put to avoid buying products from corporations whose stock is largely owned by uber-liberal foundations or universities, etc. Gasoline comes immediately to mind.

Seems to me the issue is how much of the quality of the rifles depends upon Cooper, himself. Quien sabe? The employees might all be voting against Obama...

 

[ArmedBear]

Here's the thing...

If the company does well, the money still goes to Dan Cooper.

If not, then the craftsmen who work there will be out of work, but not out of skills. Real estate is cheap in Montana. There would be a lot of surplus gunmaking machinery on the market in Montana at that point, without many potential buyers. It should be relatively easy for this group of skilled people to regroup and make rifles without Dan Cooper.

It would be entirely possible to see that Dan Cooper doesn't make a penny from firearms again, while the current employees build their own company.

Refusing to buy from them in the meantime would make this possible.

Would this be a bad thing?

 

[Horsemany]

A Cooper rifle isn't any less accurate or desireable than it was last week IMO. THey are great American made guns. The customer service there is phenomonal. I'd buy another today if I felt I need one. Let's not be so quick to eat our own for differences of opinion. One could argue that "Pres. Shortbus" did as much damage to shooters by allowing the middle class (most shooters) to dwindle down to nothing while allowing the rich to get much richer. I'm not all about gun control but I do value my job and my house.

I heard a vendor at the gunshow this year chortling about how "next year there won't be a gun show if Obama is elected". He neglected to notice only half the tables had vendors because the economy is in the toilet. I had to ask at the door if I was at the same show as last year because it was so much smaller than years prior.

 

[smee781]

I still have a choice, and I decide not to support cooper or the other moron!

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

ArmedBear speaks very, VERY wisely.

 

[alaskanativeson]

Would this be a bad thing?

In my opinion, yes. With the economy the way it is, what are the chances that somebody's going to gamble on starting up a new firearms manufacturer? What are the chances that someone will get the capital needed to start such a venture? I don't know of too many gun rights multi-millionaires looking to start new gun companies (okay, I don't know any) and I SERIOUSLY doubt the banking institution is going to line up to give a loan. This is made all the more likely when you look at the number of firearms manufactureres going out of business. One more, especially a quality company like Cooper is not a good thing.

I can't see punishing the employees because of Dan's mistake. I'm willing to bet that he's going to learn something from this as well. Time will tell. Dan'll be around; Gun shows, outdoor expos, things like that. He'll have a chance to make himself heard as to whatever his true colors are. In the mean time, I won't be condemning an American gunmaking company.

We're already under attack enough.

 

[SwampWolf]

He'll have a chance to make himself heard as to whatever his true colors are. In the mean time, I won't be condemning an American gunmaking company.

He has shown us what his true colors are. What other evidence do you need? And I'll condemn any company that purports to diminish my Constitutional rights, be it American and/or makes guns or otherwise.

 

[rbernie]

We're already under attack enough.

All the more reason to convince Dan to ****, like right NOW.

I don't buy this 'Don't pick on our own' argument that I keep hearing. He is NOT 'one of us', despite any protestations to the contrary.

HE SOLD US OUT.

Certainly, he's not like me. I would not sell my soul for the premise of some future benefit, nor would I go behind those whom I use as my customers and support policies that lead to their eventual loss of rights. No sir - he is not one of us. He ceased to be when he supported a known, unapologetic gun banner.

He is free to hold his politics. Good for him to stand up and make his voice heard. But I have heard that voice and all I can say in return is, "Piss off".

I can't see punishing the employees because of Dan's mistake.

Perhaps if his staff is sufficiently unenamored with him and the price that his opinions has cost THEM, they'll buy him out and send him on his way. THAT would be an American response. Until then, I have ZERO tolerance and ZERO sympathy for the lot of 'em.

If they support him, they by direct extension support his opinions and his actions.

I do not offer him that support.

 

[TT]

People who support politicians who want to ban light rifles and make carrying concealed a Federal crime are not ‘fellow gun owners’, they’re fifth columnists. We need to make an example of them.

 

[mljdeckard]

This business is competitive enough, I don't feel the need at all to reconsider them in the future. Bottom line, he knew what he was risking when he took the position he did. I'll admire a man for sticking to it, but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences.

 

[theoldgringo]

In this country a thousand millions is a billion, a thousand billions is a trillion, a million millions is a trillion.................PERIOD

 

[Golden Hound]

It's bad enough that he supported the official party of gun control but Barack Mugabe (I mean, Obama) is THE MOST ANTI-GUN POLITICIAN WHO HAS EVER RUN FOR PRESIDENT! There's no excuse! None whatsoever!

 

[TT]

CRITGIT: Hopefully there was this much disgust with those who were responsible for that POS The Pat Act and Military Comm. Act 2006 that stripped away many more rights than a wouldbee/mightbee ever could!

This sort of post is exactly why the idea of RKBA groups ‘reaching out to Democrats’ is a failure. Anyone who would equate the narrowly-tailored Patriot Act to a blanket Federal ban on civilian ownership of arbitrarily selected weapons is obviously hopeless with regard to the 2nd Amendment. What makes a RKBA activist useful is his willingness to vote guns first, not his willingness to find excuses to support anti-gun candidates.

 

[Horsemany]

What makes a RKBA activist useful is his willingness to vote guns first, not his willingness to find excuses to support anti-gun candidates.

I believe tomorrow you will find few folks are willing to "vote guns first" with all that's going on right now. Especially the middle class folks who I feel most gun owners are. I do not believe Obama will take guns away from us. I have heard how the Dems will take guns away for the past couple of decades I've been old enough to care about politics. With all going on right now and the mainstream status of the AR I don't personally think anyone's gonna get the guns. Just my point of view.

 

[SwampWolf]

I do not believe Obama will take guns away from us. I have heard how the Dems will take guns away for the past couple of decades I've been old enough to care about politics. With all going on right now and the mainstream status of the AR I don't personally think anyone's gonna get the guns. Just my point of view.

Bill Clinton, a Democrat, signed the Assault Rifle Ban. Obama is on record opposing your right to keep and bear arms. Your "point of view" is irrelevant when the facts stare you in the face.

 

[Horsemany]

Obama is on record opposing your right to keep and bear arms

Where did you find the record? I've not seen anything official on this and I don't believe everyone on the gun forum will give truthful unbiased info. I'd like a link or something official if you got it.

Oh...and my opinion is just as relevant as yours.

 

[Golden Hound]

I wish I didn't have to worry about Obama restricting or outlawing guns, but unfortunately, his record is so anti-gun that it's impossible not to. To all who say that "the Democrats will have more important things to do than worry about gun control, because of all the other problems," I say, with the economic problems will come a rise in crime, and because of the rise in crime, Democrat politicians (who will control the legislative branch as well as the executive) will propose anti-gun laws as a feel-good measure to make people think that something is being done about the crime problems, and there you have it - gun bans, ammo taxes, whatever. I'm not sufficiently eased by the claims that gun control simply won't come up because it's not an important issue of the moment.

 

[rbernie]

Where did you find the record? I've not seen anything official on this and I don't believe everyone on the gun forum will give truthful unbiased info. I'd like a link or something official if you got it.

Oh, dear sweet baby jeebus. It's in the official Democratic Party plank, and it's in his voting record and in his stump speeches. You would have to be completely disingenuous to suggest that you have looked and have not seen it.

Here's the first link I found when I searched for 'Obama gun rights"

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/16/22186/4153

To quote from the article:

Chicago Defender December 13, 1999,

Obama unveils federal gun bill

Obama is proposing to make it a felony for a gun owner whose firearm was stolen from his residence which causes harm to another person if that weapon was not securely stored in that home.

He's proposing restricting gun purchases to one weapon a month and banning the sale of firearms at gun shows except for "antique" weapons. Obama is also proposing increasing the licensing fee to obtain a federal firearms

Here's the Chicago Tribune, October 8, 2004:

In 2001, Obama was one of just nine senators to vote against a bill that toughened penalties for violent crimes committed during gang activity. Obama said the law did not clearly define a gang member and he questioned why lawmakers were targeting Hispanics and blacks for stiffer sentences.

Two years earlier, after the Columbine High School shootings in Colorado, Obama voted "present" on a bill requiring juveniles to be prosecuted as adults for firing a firearm on or near school property.

Obama also voted against a bill permitting gun owners to claim self-defense when using a gun in their homes if the local community bans the use of handguns. Obama said municipalities should control local gun regulations, not the state.

"That law eviscerated anti-handgun ordinances in some communities," Obama said. "The way I feel, Wilmette should not determine Mattoon's firearms ordinances and Mattoon should not determine Wilmette's."

Associated Press, Sept. 11, 2004:

-Voted 'No' on letting people claim a self-defense protection in court for using a gun in their homes despite local weapons bans. (SB2165, 2004)

-Voted 'Yes' on letting retired police and military police carry concealed weapons. (SB2188, 2004)

Chicago Tribune, August 20, 2004:

Last week, Obama won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police. Union officials cited Obama's longtime support of gun-control measures and his willingness to negotiate compromises on bills backed or opposed by the FOP.

(Articles available on Lexis. com.)

I can't figure out where he stands. He's all over the map. This happens on just too many issues with him.

How about this:

http://www.issues2000.org/Domestic/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm

Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws
Q: Is the D.C. law prohibiting ownership of handguns consistent with an individual's right to bear arms?
A: As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it.

Q: But do you still favor the registration & licensing of guns?

A: I think we can provide common-sense approaches to the issue of illegal guns that are ending up on the streets. We can make sure that criminals don't have guns in their hands. We can make certain that those who are mentally deranged are not getting a hold of handguns. We can trace guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers that may be selling to straw purchasers and dumping them on the streets.

Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008

FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban
Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, "No, my writing wasn't on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns."
Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:

35. Do you support state legislation to:
a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes.
b. ban assault weapons? Yes.
c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes.

Obama's campaign said, "Sen. Obama didn't fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did--and there are several answers that didn't reflect his views then or now. He may have jotted some notes on the front page of the questionnaire, but some answers didn't reflect his views."

Source: FactCheck.org analysis of 2008 Philadelphia primary debate Apr 16, 2008

Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok
Q: You said recently, "I have no intention of taking away folks' guns." But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you've said that it's constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions?
A: Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions.

Source: 2008 Politico pre-Potomac Primary interview Feb 11, 2008

Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing
Q: When you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners. Would you do that as president?
A: I don't think that we can get that done. But what we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. The efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers. As president, I intend to make it happen. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership. It is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot. Then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago. We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets.

Source: 2008 Democratic debate in Las Vegas Jan 15, 2008

2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month
Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored to limit handgun purchases to one per month (it did not pass). He voted against letting people violate local weapons bans in cases of self-defense, but also voted in2004 to let retired police officers carry concealed handguns. Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.148 Oct 30, 2007

Concealed carry OK for retired police officers
Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. If there was any issue on which Obama rarely deviated, it was gun control. He was the most strident candidate when it came to enforcin and expanding gun control laws. So this vote jumped out as inconsistent.
When I queried him about the vote, he said, "I didn't find that [vote] surprising. I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms."

It wasn't until a few weeks later that another theory came forward about the uncharacteristic vote. Obama was battling with his GOP opponent to win the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police.

Source: From Promise to Power, by David Mendell, p.250-251 Aug 14, 2007

Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities
Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?
A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we've had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We've got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We've got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren't loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they're not made in our communities. There aren't any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who've been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That's a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don't have it right now.

Source: 2007 NAACP Presidential Primary Forum Jul 12, 2007

Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality
I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manfuacturer's lobby. But I also believe that when a gangbanger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels someone disrespected him, we have a problem of morality. Not only do ew need to punish thatman for his crime, but we need to acknowledge that there's a hole in his heart, one that government programs alone may not be able to repair.
Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p.215 Oct 1, 2006

Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban
KEYES: [to Obama]: I am a strong believer in the second amendment. The gun control mentality is ruthlessly absurd. It suggests that we should pass a law that prevents law abiding citizens from carrying weapons. You end up with a situation where the crook have all the guns and the law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves. I guess that's good enough for Senator Obama who voted against the bill that would have allowed homeowners to defend themselves if their homes were broken into.
OBAMA: Let's be honest. Mr. Keyes does not believe in common gun control measures like the assault weapons bill. Mr. Keyes does not believe in any limits from what I can tell with respect to the possession of guns, including assault weapons that have only one purpose, to kill people. I think it is a scandal that this president did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban.

Source: Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes Oct 21, 2004

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions
Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.
Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test Jul 2, 1998

Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.
A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. Voting YES would:
Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices

Ye, gods. Cognitive dissonance knows no bounds....

 

[Horsemany]

Golden Hound

I think we both hope you're suspicions are wrong. It's gonna be an interesting time regardless.

rbernie,

that's what I was asking for. I did some searches but didn't find this mountain of evidence. I must have been overwhelmed with cognitive dissonance. In 4 or 8 years I'd like you to find this thread and we can discuss all the guns Obama has taken away from you. Won't happen.

 

[tiger rag]

No quarter Cooper, The problem is a liberal anti gun legislature ,executive and judicial branch. Top it off with the press against us .our backs are against the wall!

 

[mljdeckard]

If it doesn't happen, it certainly won't be because he didn't want to. IT WILL BE BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T LET HIM.

Thank you for your help horsemany.