Copper Jacketed Bullets

[Texasgrillchef]

Hypothetically speaking....

Many currently melt and mold their own lead projectiles.

lead melts at a lower temp then copper.

so wouldnt it he possible if someone made copper jackets and a mold, so one could insert the copper jacket with the base of the jacket that is open into the mold. Then pour the liquid lead into the jacket in the mold and thus make a copper jacket bullet?

Without all the pains and expense of trying to swage a copper jacketed projectile?

I looked into swaging and the cost and time is crazy! surely someone can think of a better easier less expensive way for us to make our own copper jacketed projectiles.

 

[troy fairweather]

I hope this winter i can mess with making 458 bullet from 45acp brass, may even try 5.7x28 brass in to 30 caliber bullets. To cast copper the mould would have to be steel/iron sounds like a pain in the butt.

 

[buck460XVR]

To cast copper the mould would have to be steel/iron sounds like a pain in the butt.

I think the OP is talking a mold that would take a pre-made copper/gilding metal, cup/jacket and then allow you to pour molten lead into it, not about smelting/molding his own copper jackets. Even bullet manufacturers do not melt their copper jackets, they draw them from blanks.

IMHO, the cost savings of buying premade jackets and poring your own core into them would not be enough to warrant your time.

 

[Demi-human]

IMHO, the cost savings of buying premade jackets and poring your own core into them would not be enough to warrant your time.

Absolutely.
But when has that stopped any of us?

A side benefit should be bonding the lead to the jacket, ensuring they do not separate. In addition the heat from the lead will anneal the copper jacket making it open more readily and impressively.


In all, I need to draw the line somewhere, I do not make my own bullets.
It surely must be more complex than just pouring lead in.
Especially the target bullets, have you seen the cross section of a Berger? How do they form the point when there is nothing there? Let alone when there is too much lead there. It probably doesn’t just squirt out the top in a little wire noodle...

Now. Where do we get the Copper sheet to press the cups, to draw the jackets, to fill with a precise amount of lead, to swage into bullets, to hand load our ammunition with?

 

[ReloaderFred]

Been there, done that, and it doesn't work. The lead shrinks when it cools and won't be tight against the jacket. The only way to do something like this is to fully anneal the jacket and core at high temperature (I use 1,100 degrees F) and let it bond. You still have to swage the end product to get the proper shape and diameter.

Do a search here on bullet swaging and you'll find my process.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ReloaderFred]

Hypothetically speaking....

Many currently melt and mold their own lead projectiles.

lead melts at a lower temp then copper.

so wouldnt it he possible if someone made copper jackets and a mold, so one could insert the copper jacket with the base of the jacket that is open into the mold. Then pour the liquid lead into the jacket in the mold and thus make a copper jacket bullet?

Without all the pains and expense of trying to swage a copper jacketed projectile?

I looked into swaging and the cost and time is crazy! surely someone can think of a better easier less expensive way for us to make our own copper jacketed projectiles.

Addressing just the pouring issue, unless you had a way to precisely pour exactly the same amount of alloy each and every time, you'd get bullet weights all over the map. It wouldn't be like casting bullets, since jacket fill out would be an issue, especially if you used the normal folded over base jacket to hold the core in place.

Before there was an internet, I read a story about the Viet Cong using .32 Auto cases for bullets in 9x19 rounds. They supposedly melted lead into the .32 case, loaded it with the primer end out, and fired them through captured Browning High Power pistols as single shots. It's been so long ago I don't remember them discussing where they got their primers, powder, etc. I do use .32 Auto brass for jackets for .357" diameter swaged bullets, but I'm deforming the heck out of them in the swaging dies so they look like a bullet. They make excellent 140 gr. JHP's for the .357 Magnum revolvers and rifles.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[243winxb]

The correct Bismuth alloy will expand over time. Melts at lower temperature. Weight? Lighter then lead, if i remember correctly.
I dont think a mold would be needed? Just a fixture to hold the formed jackets, when filling them from a bottom pour pot.

Cerrosafe is a Bismuth alloy. Expands 3.3% The amount of tin would make the alloy very expensive. $$



Freds right, lead alloys shrink on cooling and just the right amount of alloy, would be hard to do in each jacket.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

I was thinking more along the lines of having your typical lead molds, but modified. you place a premade copper jacket into the lead mold, close it up so the pressure better forms the empty copper jacket. Then pour the lead into the mold like you do typically, then Open when cooled off and slice off the extra lead so no worries of shrinkage

 

[ReloaderFred]

The lead shrinks over it's entire surface, which makes the jacket loose on the core. Think of it as a baby rattle, with the core loose inside the jacket. That may be a little extreme, but it's still not a tight fit and affects accuracy quite a bit.

It's also not cost effective, since even half jackets are generally selling for about .10 cents each, when you can find them, and you're talking about fully formed jackets. Unless you have a punch press and the necessary sets of dies to make the jackets, it's going to be difficult to source them.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[forrest r]

Interesting thread.

I've swaged my own bullets since 1990 & still do to this day. Started out with a herter's c-press, dies and 1/2 jackets. Then switched to herter's 9-ton presses (still have 2 of them along with 308/311/323/355/357/429/451 dies). I also use a simple rcbs press to swage 22cal bullets for the 223rem,s. Along with making my own dies to swage bullets for the 223rem/308w/9mm/38spl/357's.44cal's/45acp's.

I also cast my own bullets, been casting since the 80's and have easily owned 200+ molds over the decades. Been thinning the herd & I'm down to 50+ with the only 1 mold that's a generic/current production mold Typically I'll cast 300# of alloy a year to burn up on the ranges.

The simple answer is: No putting a jacket in a mold and pouring hot lead into it to make a bullet will not work.

The 2 major issues you'll have are the jackets have to be hot or you'll get wrinkles/voids in the lead cores causing an inaccurate/unbalanced bullet. The cast bullet core/jacket will come out of the mold out of round. Out of round bullets are inaccurate and running them thru a sizing die to true them will cause the lead core to be reformed along with reforming the jacket. The lead will hold the new shape but the jacket will have what's known as spring back. The jacket's spring back causes voids in the core/jacket side walls. The end result is an inaccurate bullet.

But knowing these common things are all part of swaging jacketed bullets. Things like using annealed/dead soft jackets reduce the "spring back" of the jackets. Bonding the cores stop the core/jacket separation.

Lastly there are a lot of steps to swaging bullets, but depending on what you want to do with those bullets. Some of the steps can easily be eliminated. The same goes for reducing the cost of swaging equipment/dies. Handgun calibers bullets are by far the cheapest/easiest jacketed bullets to make with common reloading dies that can easily be either found at gunshows for +/- $5 apiece or borrowed from reloading die sets you already own.

 

[mdi]

It might be done in the manner you suggest, but personally I don't think it would work, mainly because of what Fred and others mentioned; different rate of expansion/shrinkage, voids, etc.. Insert an empty jacket into mold and close/swing the sprue plate and pour. Sounds good, but bonding and shrinkage would be problematic. For home made jacketed bullets swaging works much better, been done for quite a while and equipment, though expensive, is readily available.

 

[FROGO207]

If there was a simple inexpensive way to make jacketed bullets most of the reloading crew would already be onto it making their own bullets for cheap. Swaging, casting lead, or turning a bullet in a lathe are the best methods presently available. If somebody comes up with an easier cost effective way I'm all ears.

 

[Offfhand]

What the OP suggests is completely workable and has been done successfully many times over the past many years. Read up on Speer "Hot-Cor" bullets.

 

[forrest r]

What the OP suggests is completely workable and has been done successfully many times over the past many years. Read up on Speer "Hot-Cor" bullets.

Successfully done, yes
Easily done, no

 

[forrest r]

If there was a simple inexpensive way to make jacketed bullets most of the reloading crew would already be onto it making their own bullets for cheap. Swaging, casting lead, or turning a bullet in a lathe are the best methods presently available. If somebody comes up with an easier cost effective way I'm all ears.

There are easy/cheap ways to make jacketed bullets. The majority of the reloaders/casters out there already have everything they need to make jacketed bullets for free. I've posted on this website in the past on how to make free jacketed bullets with common every day reloading components.

Free jacketed bullets


made from 22lr cases and free range lead

 

[forrest r]

Years ago I tested several different alloys/bonded core combo's looking for an alloy that would stay intact for 44cal hunting bullet. That 265gr bullet pictured in the post above is the end result of that testing. Recovered bullets from wetpack @ 25yds simulating the velocity of a 100yd hit.

 

[forrest r]

I drew some 9mm cases down in size to use as jackets for .357" bullets. After the 9mm cases were drawn to the correct diameter I put flux in the and then a cast bullet for a core. I set the 9mm case (free bullet jacket)/flux/lead core in a level pan and heated everything until the lead melted creating a bonded core to the 9mm jacket. I loaded those bonded cores in 38spl cases along with some other cast hp's.

I bumped up some 40s&w cases to .429" and put a cast bullet/flux in them and heated them to make a 44cal bonded core bullet. I loaded them in 44spl cases along with some cast hp's to test.


Recovered bonded core test bullets.

Top view of the bonded core test bullets


Those test bonded core bullets we shot in snubnosed revolvers. There ability to act like a cookie cutter was impressive to say the least along with they put a good smack on everything they hit. Just for the heck of it I tested some of the bonded core bullets with the cores made so that they were off center by tilting the pan that was full of the melting cores. The end result was the cores hardened with 1 edge longer then the other. There was no noticeable difference in accuracy @ 7yds between the level bonded core bullets and the offset bonded core bullets. But when those offset cores hit the bundles of wetpack. They would go in strait for an inch or 2 then they'd go sideways. It had to do with the 38,000+rpm's of the bullet and the bullets yaw.

 

[forrest r]

At the end of the day it's not expensive to make jacketed bullets for the revolvers/pistols out of free range brass/free range lead and common reloading dies. With the ease of powder coating cast bullets there's just no need for the jacketed bullets. I quit making/swaging pistol/revolver bullets when I started pc's my cast bullets back in 2014. There's nothing a swaged jacketed bullet can do that a cast pc'd bullet can't do in the 9mm's/38spl's/357's/44spl's/44mag's/45acp's.

I still swage jacketed bullets for the 223rem's out of free 22lr cases and free range lead. It takes longer to make quality bullets for the 223's that will easily hold moa accuracy @ 100yds. I do make a lot of blammo ammo bullets for blasting with the m4's that are cave man simple to make turning out 2000/3000 bullets in a day.

 

[buck460XVR]

IMHO, the cost savings of buying premade jackets and poring your own core into them would not be enough to warrant your time.

Absolutely.
But when has that stopped any of us?

While I know many of us save little or no monies overall from reloading our own, my reply was in response to the OP's statement......

I looked into swaging and the cost and time is crazy! surely someone can think of a better easier less expensive way for us to make our own copper jacketed projectiles.

 

[Demi-human]

There are easy/cheap ways to make jacketed bullets. The majority of the reloaders/casters out there already have everything they need to make jacketed bullets for free. I've posted on this website in the past on how to make free jacketed bullets with common every day reloading components.

Free jacketed bullets
View attachment 867505
View attachment 867506
made from 22lr cases and free range lead
View attachment 867507
View attachment 867508

I was just thinking about this when you posted.
It isn’t really what we mean in this context, but that is exactly the photo I was thinking of.

The best part is the bullet looks like a “bullet”, as the non-gunner would think of it.

my reply was in response to the OP's statement

I’ll not miss a chance for a good running gag.

Saving money... the best joke ever!

 

[horsey300]

Hypothetically speaking....

Many currently melt and mold their own lead projectiles.

lead melts at a lower temp then copper.

so wouldnt it he possible if someone made copper jackets and a mold, so one could insert the copper jacket with the base of the jacket that is open into the mold. Then pour the liquid lead into the jacket in the mold and thus make a copper jacket bullet?

Without all the pains and expense of trying to swage a copper jacketed projectile?

I looked into swaging and the cost and time is crazy! surely someone can think of a better easier less expensive way for us to make our own copper jacketed projectiles.

Someone did
https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/bullets/bullet-jackets/

 

[mdi]

Yeah, we've all seen and many of us have made pistol bullets from smaller pistol brass. But the OP asked about a specific method for the home reloader to make lead core jacketed bullets. Yep, making hot "hot core" bullets is possible if the equipment is available, probably a way to prepare a jacket, heat it and a method to keep the jacket hot (in a mold) while the core is poured, and maybe a half dozen other steps. Speer has been doing if since soon after WWII.

 

[Offfhand]

Continuing my above post (#13), back sometimes about the 1980's when I had finished an elk hunt in the Selways I went on up to Lewiston, Id. to visit my hunting pal Ray Speer, (then head of Speer bullets) who wanted to show me his new twin Cessna. While there I was introduced to a guy by the name of Bill Steigers who has starting up a one man bullet making operation called BitterRoot Bullets. I spent half a day with Steigers, watching him making his bullets virtually by hand. His trick was "tinning" the inside of his copper jackets with solder so that when the molten lead was poured in it rigidly adhered, or bonded, so that the jackets and core were essentially a single unit. It proved to be a great idea and his BitterRoot bullets became well regarded by big game hunters.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I've posted these photos before, but annealing the jackets and cores together at 1,100 Degrees F. will bond the core to the jacket without the use of flux or tinning. They take about 8 hours to cool in the kiln after reaching the target temperature. I didn't invent this, but actually stumbled onto it by accident. Once these bullets are swaged to final shape, the only way to separate the core from the jacket is to melt it out.






Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ReloaderFred]

Just as a refresher, this is what it takes to swage bullets, which I understand the OP didn't ask for. Perhaps it will give a better understanding of what it takes to make a bonded handgun bullet that will shoot as well as a factory product:



This is the press I used to use, but now use a dedicated swaging press, a Corbin CSP-1:



Hope this helps.

Fred