Cops and attitude Problems...

[Autolycus]

http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_033170755.html

I get so angry when I see stuff like this.

SEE THE VIDEO TOP OF LINK!

***********

Police Station Intimidation-Parts 1 and 2
Undercover Video You'll Find hard To Believe
I-Team Uncovers Imtimidation In Complaint Process
See The Reaction From Police Officials

Mike Kirsch
Reporting

Save It Email It Print It Poll
After Seeing This Report, Do You Believe:

(CBS4) MIAMI
Look for Mike Kirsch's Follow-Up report later this week on CBS4

Most police officers are a credit to the badge, serving the community and the people who pay their salary, getting criminals off the street, making the community safer for everyone.

But on occasion, a police officer and a member of the public they serve don’t see eye to eye, and the citizen feels a need to complain. In many departments around the country, the process starts out simply: a person just requests a complaint form.

Police departments around the country, like here in Tallahassee, give citizens police complaint forms all the time, no questions asked. But walk into a police station in South Florida, trying to find out how to file a complaint, and watch what happens.

CBS4 News found that, in police departments across Miami-Dade and Broward Counties, large and small, it was virtually impossible to walk in the door, and walk out with a complaint form.

The I-Team conducted an extensive hidden camera test, carried out by a police abuse watchdog group called the Police Complaint Center. Remarkably, of 38 different police stations tested around South Florida, all but three had no police complaint forms.

Florida City P.D. and Homestead P.D. had them, as did the City of Miami, in three languages -- English, Spanish, and Kreole.

“Your job is to explain how you take the complaint and make no judgement, even though you may say, this person looks like they just dropped in from Mars”, said Timoney, “That's not your job.”

After hearing our undercover video described, in which representatives of different departments were seen refusing to supply complaint forms, and at times, appearing to belittle or insult the undercover tester for asking (see transcripts below), Timoney said at times the behavior seemed inappropriate for his department’s standards.

“If a supervisor attempted to not take a complaint or cover up a complaint,” said Timoney, “we would investigate that supervisor. I guarantee you, the discipline would be severe, if a supervisor didn't take the report.”

In the I-team’s undercover investigation, there was one incident in which our tester went in to file a complaint. After several times asking for a form, being told "you're not leaving without a form," he was asked to leave and actually walked off the property, to the point where the officer reached for his gun, put his hand on his gun and said, "Take a step closer, and see what happens.".

Miami Chief Timoney was surprised at that response. ”I hope it wasn't my police officer. That's very serious. I'd treat it very serious.”
In the end, Timoney says cops intimidating citizens alone is bad enough. What's worse is cops denying citiizens the very forms on which they need to complain about such behavior. Citizen complaint forms that create a paper trail, so that complaints can't possibly be ignored.


And even worse than that, says Timoney, is when a police department itself doesn't have a complaint form policy to begin with. And that, he says, when you consider the many other departments in the country that do, is not right and not good for the image of South Florida law enforcement.

“Anytime you don't get police departments or other institutions to do what's right”, said Timoney, ”if the agency is not doing it properly, fire the chief. If I'm not doing it properly, fire me”

TRANSCRIPTS
These are transcripts of conversations between police officers at the departments named and our tester:

(Lauderhill P.D.
tester: Yeah, I wanted to find out how to file a complaint against an officer. I just want to find out how you do it. Do you guys have a form or something that I could take with me.
officer: Well, you got to tell me first, and then I got to hear what's going on. You've got to tell me what the complaint is.
tester: Do you have a complaint form that I can, like, fill out or something like that?
officer: Might not be a legitimate complaint.
tester: Who decides that?
officer: I'm trying to help you.
tester: Like, if there's a form, why can't I just take it and leave, right?
officer: No, you don't leave with forms. You tell me what happened, and then I help you from there. Do you have I-D on?
tester: Why?
officer: You know what? You need to leave.
tester: Why?
officer: I'm going to tell you one more time, because I can't do this anymore with you, okay. You're refusing to tell me what you want to do, okay. You're refusing to tell me who's involved, where it happened, what transpired. You'e not cooperating iwth me one bit.
tester: I was just asking if you guys have a complaint form, like if there's some way for me --
officer: Out of my way.
tester: To contact Internal Affairs.
officer: You can do whatever the hell you want. It's a free country.
man" You're cursing at me.
officer: Where do you live? Where do you live? You have to tell me where you live, what your name is, or anything like that.
tester: For a complaint? I mean, like, if I have --
officer: Are you on medications?
tester: Why would you ask me something like that?
officer: Because you're not answering any of my questions.
tester: Am I on medications?
officer: I asked you. It's a free country. I can ask you that.
tester: Okay, you're right.
officer: So you're not going to tell me who you are, you're not going to tell me what the problem is.You're not going to identify yourself.
tester: All I asked you was, like, how do I contact --
officer: You said you have a complaint. You say my officers are acting in an inappropriate manner.
officer: So leave now. Leave now. Leave now.
tester: I'm not doing anything wrong.
officer: Neither am I. It's a free country.
officer: I'm not in your face. I'm standing on the sidewalk. It's a free country. One more step forward, and you'll see what happens. Take one more step forward.)

(Miami-Dade PD Midwest Station
man" Yeah, I'm trying to find out how to file a complaint against an officer.
officer: What station does he work at?
tester: I'm ont saying he works at this facility. I'm trying to file --
officer: My question is where does he work at? He works here at this district? Just try to answer my question. I think you think this is a big conspiracy.
tester: I want to find out how you file a complaint. That's what I'm asking.
officer: If you think you can walk in here and go straight to the director of Metro Dade Police without telling me any details, you can't do it. And I -- for some reason, you think that, I don't know why. You think it's a big conspiracy, that we're going to hide some information about what happened to you, I don't know. Is it a traffic ticket? Is it something, you know, (?) complaint. That he stole your lunch money, did he steal your money, did he have sex with your wife, what?)

(Hialeah Gardens PD
tester: I want to know, how can I go about filing a complaint against a police officer?
officer: Where did the incident happen? What street?
tester: Sir, I --
officer: I'm here to hear the complaint. I'm going to take the complaint, so you've got to speak to me so that we can discuss this and see what we can do. Speak to me about it. When did this happne?
tester: Sir --
officer: Leave. Leave.
tester: So you're not going to take my complaint?
officer: Yes, I'm trying to! ANswer my questions!
tester: I don't really want to discuss it. I have --
officer: I'm going to investigate it!
tester: Is there any other way I can go about it?
officer: Do you have psychological problems or what?)

(South Miami PD
tester: I'm trying to find out how to file a complaint against a police officer. Is there a complaint form or something like that?
officer: It don't work that way.
tester: You said there's not a complaint form that I can just -- there's nothing I can just get and take and fill out?
officer: That ain't hte way it works.)

(Hollywood PD
officer: What can I do for you?
tester: I'm trying to find out how to file a complaint against an officer.
officer: Which officer would that be?
tester: Um, I mean, I just want to find out how to do it right now. That's what I want.
officer: You would talk to me.
tester: So there's not, like, a form or something? That's the only way to do it.
officer: Yep.)

(Hallandale Beach PD
tester: I want to know how to file a complaint against an officer.
officer: If you want to file a complaint, I need to know what officer, so I know what sergeant to send you to.
tester: Do you have a complaint form or something?
officer: No, you'll have to talk to a sergeant.)

(Sunny Isles PD
tester: Yeah, I'm trying to find out how to file a complaint against an officer? Have you got a complaint form?
officer: No, you have to talk to a sergeant.)

(Miami Springs PD
tester: Okay, so like, there's not a form or something?
officer: No.)

(Miami Beach PD
tester: Okay, there's not, like, a form or anything like that I can take?
officer: No.)

(Pembroke Pines PD
tester: I'm just trying to find out how to file a complaint against an officer.
officer: You need to talk to the supervisor, up the hall.
tester: Is there a form around here I can take?
officer: No.)

(Coral Gables PD
tester: You don't have a complaint form or anything like that?
officer: A what?
tester: A complaint form.
officer: You have to go through a sergeant first.
tester: So that's the only way to do it, to sit down with a sergeant?
officer: That's the only way.
tester: Not a form? No form to give me?
officer: No, we don't have a generic form.
tester: No generic form?
officer: No.
tester: Okay.)

(City of Pinecrest PD
tester: How do I file a complaint against an officer?
officer: Um --
tester: Is there a form or something?
officer: A form? No, there's no form.)

(Wilton Manors PD
tester: You don't have a brochure that I can leave?
officer: There's no form, there's no brochure, there's nothing like that.)

(Sea Ranch PD
cop; We don't give you -- we don't give you a form. Where do you live?
tester: I don't want to say.
officer: You don't want to say?
tester: Where are you going?
officer: You want to play hardball? We'll play hardball. I want ID.
tester: For what?
officer: I'm asking you for ID right now, that's why. Here, hand it to me. Hand it to me.
tester: Are you kidding me? Here.
officer: I said, hand me your ID. What are you doing here? This is --
tester: I came to ask you how to file a complaint.
officer: This is very suspicious.
tester: Asking how to file a complaint is suspicious?
officer: Why don't you shut up?
officer: I say this is very suspicious, that you pull in here at this time of night --
tester: Eight o'clock?
officer: You're constantly butting in.
tester: I'm constantly butting in?
Mike: Sir, I would like to leave.
officer: I would love it, but he's got your driver's license, so you're just going to have to stay.
Mike: Sir, are you detaining us?
officer: Okay, could I give you a ticket right now for improper backing.
Mike: You can do whatever you want, I suppose.
officer: Okay, that means yes, I guess you're saying, right? ANd for backing up, correct, yes?
Mike: I was backing up, sir, because I was leaving.
officer: But because I'm a nice guy, okay, I'm going to give you a warning. Is that fair?
Mike: Yes, sir.
officer: Okay.)

(Broward sheriff North Lauderdale
tester: There's no way, like, to just write it down or something like --
officer: Well, first, why don't you tell me what happened, and I'll tell you if somebody did something wrong to you.
Tester: I feel like I know when somebody did something wrong, I mean, like, you know --
officer: Maybe not. Some people don't. Some people think we're not allowed to do certain things, and we are. Sometimes, you know, some guys take it overboard, and they're not allowed to do that.
tester: Right.
officer: I don't know what happened.
tester: Right, right. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to talk --
officer: I tried to help you, but obvously you've got issues.
tester: I don't have issues, man.)




(© MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.)

edited to fix formatting -- pax

 

[Crosshair]

So who watches the watchers watchers?

 

[Autolycus]

Scary isn't it? It is shameful that they actually threatened a man. One officer actually brandished (according to some states what the officer did was brandish from what I have read about brandishing) a weapon to scare someone off.

Its things like this that make me feel that LE Agencies do not need anymore funding. I live in a non carry state and am not looking forward to having to rely on these people for my own protection.

 

[Optical Serenity]

Every time I see one of these cop bashing threads, I remind myself not to judge all citizens by the thousands I see all the time who are criminals.

Wow, can you imagine? If I judged everyone I come in contact with by the criminals I deal with?

 

[Autolycus]

I dont feel this is cop bashing. Its a news story that relates to me due to the fact that I am forced to (if I wish to follow the law) depend on them for my safety. And they are supposed to serve and protect me as well as monitor me so that I am not a danger to others. But however if I feel one of them goes to far I am deemed to have psychological problems, crazy, or whatever. If in the worst case they might threaten me with their sidearm. But nonetheless they are police, and being police therefore makes them incapable of any wrong or evil.

 

[gunsmith]

eh

sounds like they really just don't know where the forms are or if they exist.

sounds to me more like any typical city worker rather then some major coverup.

those "cop watch" orgs are all commie fronts out to bash cops anyway.

a police abuse watchdog group called the Police Complaint Center

the PCC is probably to PC for me.

I bet the same folks at PCC were against the stand your ground law and donate to sarah brady

 

[John G]

The video shows more than just honest police who can't find the form. It shows jerks using intimidation. It also shows many police departments who have no complaint form. Now, I don't know what was edited out of this story, but a couple of those guys need to learn how to comport themselves publicwise, oh my brothers.

 

[50 Freak]

I have to say, I had a "run in" with a LE once. We didn't see eye to eye on a matter. Anyways, to make a long story short, he threatened to throw me against my car and arrest me over a ticket.

I called his Sargent the next day and told him the story and requested a complaint form. Sargent was very sympathetic and mailed me a form the next day. Told me he would talk to his officer as he felt the officer was out of line.

I cooled off and decided the officer was just having a bad night. Decided to fight the ticket in court. But funny thing happened, the ticket "disappeared" and I checked with the courts and DMV and nothing ever came out of it. Been two years now, still nothing.

Guess each department is run differently.

 

[Molon Labe]

Hmmm. I guess these are just isolated incidences.

Nothing to see here. Move on...

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I have an uncle who was hit (car totalled - front end knocked completely off), by a cop who was doing 90 down a road that was a 45 zone. No lights or emergency, just hammering his cruiser down a public road for the heck of it. When the court date came, same officer didn't appear. That's right, he couldn't be found. Not on the radio, nothing. He was on duty, too. And, more importantly, there was no warrant for his arrest issued for failure to appear. Different rules?

I had a problem with a local department when I was in college. It was a clear cut case for harassment. The Cheif wouldn't even hear my complaint. And, noone would give me a form either.
When I used to work on classic cars I had a shop next to a body shop. EVERY DAY at least 8 (sometimes 12) deputys would show up at the beginning of their shift, play cards all day in the body shop office, and then put their shirts back on and go back to the station. They were all older, and said it was better to let the young guys who think they can make a difference go out and do the policing.

Of course, I've called the cops and they've shown up on more than one occasion. They've done their job when needed.

So, I find myself not cop hating, exactly. I just wonder how an officer can get away with crimes against the public that a citizen cannot- like failure to appear, harassment, intimidation, etc.

But, I suppose that if you take a stand in the upper levels of the department, then the guys on the street and in the cars distance themselves, quit, boycott, etc. and your job becomes much more difficult. So, I suppose that's why there isn't much change, or why the desk cops were trying to (in the transcript above) head the problem off before it went upstairs. Maybe the guys at the desk were the good guys who could actually effect some change.
Maybe that is as good as it will actually get, given the flaws in the system.

 

[Michigander]

What's with the "crazy" talk?

Is that something that is taught at the police academy? For the officer to insinuate that someone has psychological problems or not taking their meds properly if they do not comply with each request?

Is that like for future litigation so the officer can say, "I thought he was crazy, therefore I was justified in doing ______________" or something?

 

[buzz_knox]

Every time I see one of these cop bashing threads, I remind myself not to judge all citizens by the thousands I see all the time who are criminals.

Wow, can you imagine? If I judged everyone I come in contact with by the criminals I deal with?

It's not a cop bashing thread. It's a thread about an investigation into what may/may not be a problem, and is certainly worth discussing. Your knee jerk reaction doesn't serve your cause at all, and actually diminishes it. But hey, at least you got to trot out the tired old refrain of "cop bashing" first.

 

[BostonGeorge]

For the most part, I see this as a policy issue rather than one of cops with attitudes. As stated in the newscast there is no statewide policy in place nor are forms required to be available. I'm guessing the officers were trying do do what they could to help an uncooperative person within the guidelines (or lack thereof) of each respective department. I could understand how one could become frustrated.

Obviously a couple of the instances could have been handled better, but it is not the individual officer's fault that there is no apparatus for handling these matters.

 

[Mad Man]

I have an uncle who was hit (car totalled - front end knocked completely off), by a cop who was doing 90 down a road that was a 45 zone. No lights or emergency, just hammering his cruiser down a public road for the heck of it. When the court date came, same officer didn't appear. That's right, he couldn't be found. Not on the radio, nothing. He was on duty, too. And, more importantly, there was no warrant for his arrest issued for failure to appear. Different rules?

Yes, there are different rules.

LEOs are held to a higher standard.

It's something civilians like us just can't comprehend. That's why if there's an attitude problem in a LEO/civilian interatction, it's the civilian's fault.



When and where did this take place? Case number? Name of the officer? These should be a matter of public record. Without such information, I have to file this away as another internet legend.

 

[Mad Man]

officer: So leave now. Leave now. Leave now.

tester: I'm not doing anything wrong.

officer: Neither am I. It's a free country.

officer: I'm not in your face. I'm standing on the sidewalk. It's a free country. One more step forward, and you'll see what happens. [officer places hand on weapon] Take one more step forward.

The punk should have been arrested for refusing to obey the command to "take one more step forward."

 

[molonlabe]

Wow, can you imagine? If I judged everyone I come in contact with by the criminals I deal with?

sounds like some do.

 

[GTSteve03]

This is a non-story. Nothing but cop bashing.

You should all be thankful that there are people out there willing to sacrifice their own lives if necessary to uphold the community safety. Think of all the scum they have to deal with every day. It's no wonder they get a little worked up over stupid inquiries like this.

Just think how you all would be reacting if all the police officers out there just decided to quit one day. You'd be sorry you were bashing them all the time, wouldn't you!

 

[buzz_knox]

This is a non-story. Nothing but cop bashing.

You should all be thankful that there are people out there willing to sacrifice their own lives if necessary to uphold the community safety. Think of all the scum they have to deal with every day. It's no wonder they get a little worked up over stupid inquiries like this.

Just think how you all would be reacting if all the police officers out there just decided to quit one day. You'd be sorry you were bashing them all the time, wouldn't you!

Getting worked up over a request to file a complaint? To the point of threatening someone? You don't see that as a problem?

Personally, I think that we should ban all bad cop threads. We should also ban all bad doctor/lawyer/gunstore owner/politician threads. After all, there are no bad doctors/lawyers/gunstore owners/politicians, there are only bad patients/clients/customers/serfs.

 

[Geno]

I don't think it's attitude; I think it's "Open-system" V. "Closed-system"

Many public organizations prefer, or at the least attempt, to keep the public outside of their internal problems, even when the internal problem happened in public. At times a complaint may seem to gave gone unheard, but behind the scenes all Hades breaks loose.

I personally never handled complaints that way as a H.S. principal, but many others did. I preferred to be direct, cooperative and professional. If the matter was not life-threatening, it followed chain-of-command. If life-threatening, or law was violated, then matters were different (more formal).

Forms? Forget them. Sit down, word process a letter and detail the who, what, when, where and why/how. Include witnesses and quotes. Regardless of if a form exists, one can always detail a complaint in a letter, then send it "certified" mail to a specific person. Eventually it will find its way. The certified slip is the proof it was delivered. For fact, what is more important in dealing with any public agency is process, not forms. Sounds (looks) to me like both were lacking in these cases. That, at face value is wrong.

Doc2005

 

[hammer4nc]

The written transcript really doesn't come close to capturing the attitude presented by cops in this report. Everyone needs to watch the video (click the link) to hear and see the vocal inflexion and intimidating body language exhibited by the officers. Esp. the two cases where the cop follows the guy down the sidewalk, ("its a free country"..."take a step toward me and see what happens", <hand on gun>).

The consistency of the response at different depts. shows this is more than an isolated incident. The "few bad apples" rhetoric no longer cut it. Its obvious these guys have been trained as gatekeepers. Institutionalized harassment.

One interesting point, its only been about a year since the Hiibel/ID court decision. Now we see how the "ID requirement" is being applied in cases where there is no probable cause/reasonable suspicion. And the "ID on demand", with threat of arrest, supercedes any other issue the citizen may be trying to pursue at the moment.

Improper backing?

Honest cops should be concerned. Those who play the "cop bashing" card without further discussion brand themselves.

Its a "free" country.

 

[buzz_knox]

Many public organizations prefer, or at the least attempt, to keep the public outside of their internal problems, even when the internal problem happened in public. At times a complaint may seem to gave gone unheard, but behind the scenes all Hades breaks loose.

In the legal system, at least in TN, the complaint process is simple: you tell the Board of Professional Responsibility that you have a problem with a lawyer (up to and including he/she had bad breath) and the process initiates. The attorney is contacted and either provides a response (at which point most complaints are terminated as groundless and the legit. ones continue on) or fails to do so, and gets their license suspended. A good number of suspensions come about for failure to respond to the initial complaint.

 

[DunedinDragon]

This is a non-story. Nothing but cop bashing.

You should all be thankful that there are people out there willing to sacrifice their own lives if necessary to uphold the community safety. Think of all the scum they have to deal with every day. It's no wonder they get a little worked up over stupid inquiries like this.

Just think how you all would be reacting if all the police officers out there just decided to quit one day. You'd be sorry you were bashing them all the time, wouldn't you!

It's funny how when you point out a couple of cops that aren't doing a good job it's "cop bashing", as if it's saying all cops are bad. But when the CEO of a corporation does something wrong it doesn't mean everyone in that company is bad...it means the CEO was corrupt...and nothing more.

This story points out a couple of bad apples. Any diligent officer would be GLAD that some attention is being brought to some jerk that's making them all look bad. The whole "brotherhood of cops" philosophy is great unless it becomes "propoganda" for defending someone on the force that doesn't deserve to be defended.

What cops don't realize is that when they start coming up with excuses for their "bretheren" that have clearly crossed the line, THAT'S when they exacerbate the problems of negative public perception. They become their own worst enemies.

Clearly a couple of the cops in these videos are NOT people that should be wearing a badge. They didn't handle themselves well and they totally abused their position of authority. Yes, we are only seeing a small portion of what happened...the same way as we only see a small portion of what happened when a criminal gets caught on video. Just as is the case with the criminal, the video doesn't lie...and 90% of the time it tells the story of what happened. Denying there are bad cops out there does nothing more than infuriate the public and makes cop's job that much harder.

Not every employee in ANY company is a great employee. You have a few excellent ones, the majority are good to average, and you have a few slackers who give a bad name to the rest. Cops are NOT immune to that demographic just because they happen to wear a badge. You have bozo's that get onto the force for the wrong reasons, and you have people who have lost their perspective on how to represent themselves as officers.

I'm not a cop, but if I were I would applaud efforts to point out bad employees in the same way as I did in private companies when I got a complaint abouty an employee so some action could be taken and remove the impact they have on the public's perception of the rest of us.

 

[Lupinus]

honestly does it surprise anyone? Sad as it is it doesn't surprise me at all.

In the cops defense to be fair it is the departments right to set up its procedure for taking complaints how they feel is best. I would like to have seen what happened if instead of crying for a form the idiot just shut up and answered the cops questions, the entire footage was one sided since not once did he attempt to follow their procedure to see what happened all he did was whine for a form, making it an incomplete test.

That said, the behaviour of the police offiers on that tape when the guy wouldn't answer his questions is totally and 100% unacceptable, even if the guy is being a pain in the ass a police officer needs to conduct himself professionaly and not turn into supercop. Some of those officers need to be fired on the spot, esspecialy the one that put his hand on his gun and the other two that took the guys license and started in about it being suspecious.

So in short- it doesn't surprise me cops wouldn't be to helpful in filing a claim agianst another cop, the guy doing the fiming was a total pain in the ass who not once tried to comply with the individual departments procedures and instead just whined about the form therefor making it one sided and without a "control" (basicly a test under normal conditions to see what happens and is then used to compare different non-normal scenerios, in this case it would have been complying with the procedure in order to compare) and is therefore one sided and hard to judge if filing a complaint is truly immpossible, and even so the behaviour of some of those police officers when the guy wouldn't coperate with their procedure was totaly unnaceptabl, unprofesional, outagious and in a few cases IMO worth taking their badge over.

 

[Logistics]

Just think how you all would be reacting if all the police officers out there just decided to quit one day. You'd be sorry you were bashing them all the time, wouldn't you!

I think you hold your job (and yourself possibly) in too high of regard. I think things would have a way of "working themselves out" even without your precious "police presence".

I'd rather pay teachers more and cut back on "LE" salary. Alot of cops in my area making 75k and with overtime getting 100k and having a teacher make 50 after 20 years of tenure is a slap in the face to kids today.

A reality check is in order.....

 

[dfaugh]

OK, why is it....

that whenever we have have one of these threads, it automatically gets labeled as "cop bashing" (and often closed). I think we're all intelligent enough to know that "problem cops" are probably in the minority (although they may cause the majority of the problems).

That doesn't change the fact that those few are in the wrong, and shouldn't be exposed, and criticized. I'm 50 years old, and while I've not had extensive contact with LEOs (I've always been a "good boy") I do sense a change in the attitude of some LEOs. I still consider most to be stand up guys but I have had a couple less-than-pleasant encounters over the past few years. And, they were completely uncalled for, as I treated the officers with the utmost respect (as I would anyone), but wasn't treated with the same level of respect. Do I blame the Police Departments involved? Not really..just those particular individuals.