Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
GTSteve03 said:
I'd like to see it. Might wake people up.
Cops and attitude Problems...
- Thread starter Autolycus
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I'd like to see it. Might wake people up.
Derby FALs said:
In more ways than one. The social contract by which the people largely give up the right to self-help in return for the state assuming police responsibilities would be broken. So, the right would return to the people.
Further, without the ability to enforce laws, the state would find itself with the necessity of pulling back in terms of said laws.
Some places would be like LA or New Orleans. But many others would be like the true old west, where crime was actually far lower than heavily policed areas. After all, criminals fear armed citizens more than cops: we don't have the same rules to play by.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
buzz_knox said:
That is more what I would hope to see. My State is shall issue. I applied for my permit a year after it went into effect. When I went to pick up my permit I was surprised they had over 200 waiting to be picked up in my county. It's a small county at that.
Sindawe
Member
It is almost always the same apologists who cry "Cop Bashing" on any thread that is remotely critical of police. 
Those of you who are cops do you fellows in the job no service when you this.
What I get from the story and videos.
1. It does not appear that complaint forms are required by law, only a recommendation by a professional association for police. Good that some departments have them.
2. The undercover investigators encountered some VERY poor behavior on the part of som "police officers". Notably in the Lauderhill P.D. and Sea Ranch P.D. Its cops like these that earn the label JBT, and reflect poorly on the good officers out there.
Those of you who are cops do you fellows in the job no service when you this.What I get from the story and videos.
1. It does not appear that complaint forms are required by law, only a recommendation by a professional association for police. Good that some departments have them.
2. The undercover investigators encountered some VERY poor behavior on the part of som "police officers". Notably in the Lauderhill P.D. and Sea Ranch P.D. Its cops like these that earn the label JBT, and reflect poorly on the good officers out there.
robert garner
Member
Originally Posted by GTSteve03
Just think how you all would be reacting if all the police officers out there just decided to quit one day. You'd be sorry you were bashing them all the time, wouldn't you!
Actually not a bad idea!
Most of us know what the sit rep is,just as we know that law enforcement's hands are tied,by a CJ system that is set up as a welfare program(yes virginia,
there is a reason for the revolving door,)No I am Not cop bashing... those boys
and girls are often the ONLY justice in the system!
Imagine the BG's dancin' when the news goes out BLUE FLU only cure is to take
junior fishing for 6-8 weeks!
Coupla weeks consternation
Coupla weeks conflagration
a Generation o Peace?
Just think how you all would be reacting if all the police officers out there just decided to quit one day. You'd be sorry you were bashing them all the time, wouldn't you!
Actually not a bad idea!
Most of us know what the sit rep is,just as we know that law enforcement's hands are tied,by a CJ system that is set up as a welfare program(yes virginia,
there is a reason for the revolving door,)No I am Not cop bashing... those boys
and girls are often the ONLY justice in the system!
Imagine the BG's dancin' when the news goes out BLUE FLU only cure is to take
junior fishing for 6-8 weeks!
Coupla weeks consternation
Coupla weeks conflagration
a Generation o Peace?
The Freeholder
Member
You mean I might actually have to take personal responsibility for my own safety, and not have to depend on professionals with .40 Glocks? Oh, the horror!
Those of you who label any thread that takes police agencies to task for poor/unprofessional/whatever behavior don't help your case by doing so, for you're failing to see the facts. I'd venture that the majority of people don't hate cops--instead, they don't trust them.
Like some other posters have noted, I've called the police my share of times--accidents, the time I saw a guy crawl through the open window of an apartment, when there was a dispute between a male and female in a parking lot that was beginning to turn ugly, etc. All but one time, the police have been Johnny-on-o-the-spot, and did their job in such a way that no reasonable person could object. (The one time...
...well, I must have interrupted their break or something.)But I don't trust the police. I grew up in a town where the cops were indeed corrupt (the one who lived next door to us broke into our house and stole nearly all of my Dad's war trophy guns--and yes, I do have proof, thanks), sold drugs from the trunks of their squad cars (been there, saw that in bars I used to frequent), pulled females over on trumped up moving violations to solicit sex (that was an interesting lawsuit) and so on. Nice guys. Not sure if things ever improved; I avoid that place when at all possible.
My SIL is a police LT. Some of the stories she's told us about goings on have caused my wife to reduce her contacts with her to family emergencies, funerals and Christmas. (Me, I wouldn't have anything to do with her at all.)
So in short, I've been taught by the police themselves that they are not to be trusted. Powere does, unfortunately, corrupt--and far too often, no one is watching the watchers.
The Freeholder said:
That's as sweeping and dangerous a dogma as the argument that any criticism is cop bashing.
There are good and bad cops, and corrupt agencies. My area has had its share of corruption and I've seen cops do some highly unprofessional things, but you can't paint all cops by the actions of some. If you don't trust anyone, that's fine and understandable. I don't trust anyone until they've proven themselves. But cops don't get any special trust/distrust from me.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
A few years ago, there was an African American who was in the process of crossing the country to gather information on filing complaints with various law enforcement agencies. The endeavor was part was for graduate research. He wore a mic and camera.
He approached various agencies at various times and I seem to recall that he had a partner (either a white male or white female) that he had make similar requests at some of the same departments to see if the partner would be treated differently.
It made the news here because of an incident much like the one described in the initial post. He went in the Flowermound or Hickory Creek, Tx PD later in the evening and asked about filing a complaint, what was needed, etc. The officer basically said that he would take the complaint and the guy said that he wanted to write it out himself because of the sensitivity of the situation or something like that. Anyway, the officer eventually came out from behind the reception area to address the guy directly and started pumping him for more information. When he refused and asked for a form or supervisor, the cop unsnapped his retaining strap on his holster. During the next exchanges, the officer got made that this guy wasn't answering his question and to make the point, he moved his hand to his gun at least 3 times as was seen in the video. When asked while he could not just fill out a complaint form and send it in, the officer said it was because he handled the matters and that the guy needed to be cooperative (hand moves to gun) because the officer was not conducting an investigation into the incident and that if he failed to cooperate that he would be arrested. At that point, the guy basically said, that maybe there wasn't a problem after all and left successfully.
As the gun noted in the interview with the TV reporter while his tape was being broadcast, he said he felt threatened by the officer (rightfully so) and ascertained things got out of hand and felt that if he had been arrested that the presence of his recording gear would make things very bad for him.
The TV station went to the police chief on the matter and asked what investigation was being undertaken by the officer and the chief said the officer used the wrong words because he was doing an interview, not investigation. When asked about the threat to arrest and the unhostered gun, the chief sheepishly agreed those aspects were not righ. The officer was suspended for one day without pay.
Watching the footage and hearing the exchange really hit home as to what might have happened to this guy who simply wanted to fill out a complaint. The chief pointed out that since there was no actual complaint, that the incident was moot in regard to how the officer acted. What a load of poo.
Additional research footage gathered by the grad student showed a whole range responses. Some were fairly hostile as with the case noted here and in the initial post. Some were extremely helpful. Some even seemed to be going out of their way to be helpful. He said that based on his preliminary data so far, there definitely were some patterns that seemed to be happening. For example, help during regular office hours tended to be better than during after hours. If there was a problem during regular hours, getting to talk with a supervisor usually wasn't a problem. Departments with formalized procedures (often, but not always larger depts) tended to handle his requests as normal business.
He approached various agencies at various times and I seem to recall that he had a partner (either a white male or white female) that he had make similar requests at some of the same departments to see if the partner would be treated differently.
It made the news here because of an incident much like the one described in the initial post. He went in the Flowermound or Hickory Creek, Tx PD later in the evening and asked about filing a complaint, what was needed, etc. The officer basically said that he would take the complaint and the guy said that he wanted to write it out himself because of the sensitivity of the situation or something like that. Anyway, the officer eventually came out from behind the reception area to address the guy directly and started pumping him for more information. When he refused and asked for a form or supervisor, the cop unsnapped his retaining strap on his holster. During the next exchanges, the officer got made that this guy wasn't answering his question and to make the point, he moved his hand to his gun at least 3 times as was seen in the video. When asked while he could not just fill out a complaint form and send it in, the officer said it was because he handled the matters and that the guy needed to be cooperative (hand moves to gun) because the officer was not conducting an investigation into the incident and that if he failed to cooperate that he would be arrested. At that point, the guy basically said, that maybe there wasn't a problem after all and left successfully.
As the gun noted in the interview with the TV reporter while his tape was being broadcast, he said he felt threatened by the officer (rightfully so) and ascertained things got out of hand and felt that if he had been arrested that the presence of his recording gear would make things very bad for him.
The TV station went to the police chief on the matter and asked what investigation was being undertaken by the officer and the chief said the officer used the wrong words because he was doing an interview, not investigation. When asked about the threat to arrest and the unhostered gun, the chief sheepishly agreed those aspects were not righ. The officer was suspended for one day without pay.
Watching the footage and hearing the exchange really hit home as to what might have happened to this guy who simply wanted to fill out a complaint. The chief pointed out that since there was no actual complaint, that the incident was moot in regard to how the officer acted. What a load of poo.
Additional research footage gathered by the grad student showed a whole range responses. Some were fairly hostile as with the case noted here and in the initial post. Some were extremely helpful. Some even seemed to be going out of their way to be helpful. He said that based on his preliminary data so far, there definitely were some patterns that seemed to be happening. For example, help during regular office hours tended to be better than during after hours. If there was a problem during regular hours, getting to talk with a supervisor usually wasn't a problem. Departments with formalized procedures (often, but not always larger depts) tended to handle his requests as normal business.
molonlabe
Member
See good cops do exist. The cops who went for their gun need to be fired.
BozemanMT
Member
I work with cop departments on a daily basis (including Miami Dade and City of Miami) and I not a cop and have no desire to be one.
THEY ARE NEVER WRONG!!!
Just ask them.
Arrogant doesn't begin.
I totally do not doubt the TV's version, it plays exactly like some tele-conferences I've been in.
Never Wrong.:banghead:
THEY ARE NEVER WRONG!!!
Just ask them.
Arrogant doesn't begin.
I totally do not doubt the TV's version, it plays exactly like some tele-conferences I've been in.
Never Wrong.:banghead:
Steve in PA
Member
Sounds like the story shows that there are a few LEO's that need an attitude adjustment or worse, but most of them just didn't have the "form" the guy was looking for and so got criticized. I would have rather them just give out an address to send the complaint to.
Vex
Member
Tecumseh said:
You're right, lets cut all funding for the police departments. Hell, we're all super-hero keyboard-commando concealed-carry know-it-all bounty-hunters anyway, what do we need cops for?
In reality, most police departments have learned that people will complain about an officer just for receiving a ticket. The officer could be nice, polite, professional, and the violator could just be out to get revenge for a simple stop-sight citation, or whatever. This is why some departments don't have anonymous forms to be filled out by anonymous people. Do you know what happens at the internal affaird bureau if they get an anonymous complaint? NOTHING. Same as the law, if there's no victim, there's no crime.
And yes, this IS a cop bashing thread. It's sickening, too. Where are the rest of these conversatons between the tester and the police department? I see some of these are 4 lines long. Woopee, what does this mean? Skewed data.
This article/thread is worthless, but I'm glad I got in before thread lock!
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Vex said:
There are plenty of victimless crimes. Some are even felonies.
John G
Member
Vex said:
True, the text excerpts are limited. The video makes things much more clear. Give it a look.
Vex
Member
In incidents where crimes violate statute, the State is the victim. In incidents where crimes violate ordnances, the city or municipality is the victim.
There is always a victim in every prosecuted crime, whether it's obvious or not. "Victim" is not always synonymous with "human."
There is always a victim in every prosecuted crime, whether it's obvious or not. "Victim" is not always synonymous with "human."
Vex
Member
k_dawg said:
Arrested for what, and by whom? None of us were there, so to automatically decide that this cop was wrong based off a clearly leftist-liberal organization's investigation is irresponsible.
From who's perspective? What else does he keep back there? OC Spray? Handcuffs? What else was said by the "tester" to the officer to get him so angry? You will never convince me that an officer was going to shoot someone because the person was asking questions about complaint forms. If the officer was making threats to the "tester," then there's obviously much more to the story than we're being told.
This was also in the excerpts, and it's 100% true. So many false compalints are generated because somebody's ego was tarnished they they got a ticket, or someone didn't feel they needed to be handcuffed, or someone didn't like the way the officer searched their car, or hundreds of other false reasons that criminals like to make up to threaten cops.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Vex said:
The "State" is a victim, alright.
How can even the State be victimized if there is no physical harm? It is simply tyranny.Vex
Member
Derby FALs said:The "State" is a victim, alright.
I'm not sure I understand. What I've stated is fact, not opinion... and what is this about tyranny? Cite examples please, or atleast elaborate a bit more on your thoughts.
I'm confused as to what the problem is here. Is the issue that some departments don't have a pad of complaint forms in the lobby for people to come in and use?
If someone wants to file a complaint about a private citizen's actions, they have to talk to an officer. Why would they expect it be any different if they want to file a complaint about an officer?
In most places when someone contacts the police for just about any purpose, an incident is created in the computer system and it is assigned a unique number. The officer or telecommincator enters the name, and identifiers (address, phone number etc.) of the complainant and a brief synopsis of the problem.
Then the officer talks to the complainant about the complaint, determines if a crime has in fact been committed, refers him to the correct agency if it's not a police matter, at that point the incident is closed with a statement saying why it was closed, unfounded, referred to other agency etc. If the complainant has a valid complaint about a criminal matter the officer assists him with preparing a statement if necessary and opens a case. The case is assigned a unique number. Then depending on the department, it's either assigned to an investigator from the proper department (to include internal affiars if the agency has such a unit) or the officer who took the complaint conducts the follow up.
I don't know why the TV station that did this expose' feels that there is something wrong with that process. If you really feel that the subject is too sensitive to speak to an officer about, you can always make an appointment to speak with the chief of police or call the public responsibility unit of the state police.
Why should police departmens be expected to just hand out blank complaint forms?
Jeff
If someone wants to file a complaint about a private citizen's actions, they have to talk to an officer. Why would they expect it be any different if they want to file a complaint about an officer?
In most places when someone contacts the police for just about any purpose, an incident is created in the computer system and it is assigned a unique number. The officer or telecommincator enters the name, and identifiers (address, phone number etc.) of the complainant and a brief synopsis of the problem.
Then the officer talks to the complainant about the complaint, determines if a crime has in fact been committed, refers him to the correct agency if it's not a police matter, at that point the incident is closed with a statement saying why it was closed, unfounded, referred to other agency etc. If the complainant has a valid complaint about a criminal matter the officer assists him with preparing a statement if necessary and opens a case. The case is assigned a unique number. Then depending on the department, it's either assigned to an investigator from the proper department (to include internal affiars if the agency has such a unit) or the officer who took the complaint conducts the follow up.
I don't know why the TV station that did this expose' feels that there is something wrong with that process. If you really feel that the subject is too sensitive to speak to an officer about, you can always make an appointment to speak with the chief of police or call the public responsibility unit of the state police.
Why should police departmens be expected to just hand out blank complaint forms?
Jeff
p35bhp09
Member
I personally can't stand cops. I am a law abiding, white middle class male and the son of a cop and have had several bad interactions with law enforcement. Cops have way too much power. Any one can and will walk up to you at anytime and demand i.d. Law enforcement routinely bust into peoples homes for extremely petty crimes. The police in my hometown would frequently poach deer and ducks on my relatives farm knowing the would get a heads up if the state police were called. Saying that these "bad cops" are the minority is BS. Personally, I don't trust cops and never will.
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