Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Vex said:
So a report is filed and they are looked at on a case by case basis. Cost prohibitive? Tightening the screws may help keep the growth of government down or its true nature revealed...
Cops and attitude Problems...
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So a report is filed and they are looked at on a case by case basis. Cost prohibitive? Tightening the screws may help keep the growth of government down or its true nature revealed...
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Vex said:
I'm not sure I understand. What I've stated is fact, not opinion... and what is this about tyranny? Cite examples please, or atleast elaborate a bit more on your thoughts.
Just read my sig. What is confusing about it?
Vex
Member
Derby FALs said:
So basically you're saying that the State can't be considered a victim because it's the agents of the State that are victimizing law abiding citizens that are breaking laws that aren't real laws because they're created by the tyrannical State?
Your signature. It only works in a totally anarchist utopia with no property, no posessions, and where everyone is exactly the same as everyone else without opinion, differences, or desires.
The Freeholder
Member
Hardly, but you're welcome to your opinion. My view (not a dogma, it doesn't meet the definitions) has been formed by a lifetime of experience and observation. I do not trust the police, in general, to consistently be good guys. I do not even trust those whom I believe to be good guys to always be good. People change, sometimes quite quickly.
I, like you, don't trust those who haven't proven themselves. That said, ponder on this--it's pretty much an acknowledged fact that you can't tell if someone is a criminal just by looking at them. So how do I tell a good cop from a bad cop just by looking? They all have their uniforms, badges, equipment and so on. Good ones and bad ones look just alike, until the bad one demonstrates for you why he is "bad".
I try to minimize my interactions with the police and with any and all government as much as I can. Call it flying beneath the radar, if you will. I have found that in this place and time, that is the safest route to follow.
The Freeholder
Member
Because filing a complaint about the police is a little different than complaining about rude service in a restaurant, say. How hard would it be for a police officer who "has it in" for someone to harrass the daylights out of them? In this day, there are so many laws that no one can be sure they're obeying them all. If someone has the time and inclination, they can find some law you're guilty of violating. If that someone is a police officer, they can do something about it.
A bit of history here...
The reason that criminal cases are always "The State of Lower Slobbovia vs. John Q. Public" is that the State is the victim. The fact that a person was killed, robbed or offended by aggravated mopery with intent to loiter is sort of a technical extra. The offense comes from breaking the laws of the State or disturbing the State's peace. It goes back to our Common Law heritage. Crimes were offenses against the King's Law or the King's Peace. By breaking them you were offending against the sovereign and everyone above him on the Great Chain of Being. Offending against the Natural Order in this way is so heinous that the king (or the State in countries that don't have monarchs) is justified in punishing it with imprisonment or death.
Torts (if I've got the terminology right) are something else. You feel you have been injured, so you go to the courts and ask that your damages be made good. That's why civil suits are along the lines of "Oliver Shagnasty vs. The Whizzo Chocolate Company".
If you don't like it you'll have to come up with a new legal system and convince a lot of people to go along with it.
The reason that criminal cases are always "The State of Lower Slobbovia vs. John Q. Public" is that the State is the victim. The fact that a person was killed, robbed or offended by aggravated mopery with intent to loiter is sort of a technical extra. The offense comes from breaking the laws of the State or disturbing the State's peace. It goes back to our Common Law heritage. Crimes were offenses against the King's Law or the King's Peace. By breaking them you were offending against the sovereign and everyone above him on the Great Chain of Being. Offending against the Natural Order in this way is so heinous that the king (or the State in countries that don't have monarchs) is justified in punishing it with imprisonment or death.
Torts (if I've got the terminology right) are something else. You feel you have been injured, so you go to the courts and ask that your damages be made good. That's why civil suits are along the lines of "Oliver Shagnasty vs. The Whizzo Chocolate Company".
If you don't like it you'll have to come up with a new legal system and convince a lot of people to go along with it.
Vex
Member
The Freeholder said:
But if a department has a procedure for citizen complaints, the procedure needs to be followed every single time to the T. The citizens don't rule the police procedure. Walking into a police station and asking for a blank complaint form may not be the proper procedure, and asking "Can I have a blank complaint form," is NOT the correct question. Instead, the correct question is, "What is the procedure for filing a complaint about a recent interaction I had with a police officer?"
Catch more flies with honey, right? Especially if you use the correct honey in the correct place.
One real big important thing to remember is that the cases are *not* prosecuted by the police, and as such, the police do not represent the state in this manner. The state can prosecute law enforcement officers individually and collectively. When a police officer violates the rights of a citizen he is commiting a crime against the state, it is not the state commiting a crime.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Vex said:So basically you're saying that the State can't be considered a victim because it's the agents of the State that are victimizing law abiding citizens that are breaking laws that aren't real laws because they're created by the tyrannical State?
Quite often
Vex said:
I think you are too close to the problem. Everyone should be exactly the same as far as rights go. It's basically "Do unto others" philosophy. If you step over those boundaries the State can step in for the injured. Too few USA parts in homebuilt rifle can hardly be injurious to the State or any one person. 922r laws are basically tyrannous.
c_yeager said:
He is commiting a crime against that person, not the State.
Vex
Member
Derby, I'm sorry, but your argument is wrong on so many levels, and I think it's obvious that you and I won't agree considering you are an anarchist and I'm a devoted follower of the law.
And for the record, it's a crime against the state, and if charges were brought to an officer for miscondut by the State, then the criminal court case would be "State v. Officer Jones" or whatever, not "Victim Bobby v. Officer Jones." Here in Ohio, the law covers police misconduct by "ORC 2921.45 Interfering with civil rights" Look up the law before you argue it.
And for the record, it's a crime against the state, and if charges were brought to an officer for miscondut by the State, then the criminal court case would be "State v. Officer Jones" or whatever, not "Victim Bobby v. Officer Jones." Here in Ohio, the law covers police misconduct by "ORC 2921.45 Interfering with civil rights" Look up the law before you argue it.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Vex said:
I'm no anarchist. I believe there are times for the Law. I feel our system is very abused. The people have let down their gaurd.
As for your "record", the criminal charges would be State v. Officer Jones but the victim was Bobby. The State did not suffer.
Vex
Member
A few posts ago, you stated that not every crime has a victim. So, I want you to show me where there is a crime without a victim, with the understanding that under statute the State is a victim if the laws of the State are broken.
About this whole "Boddy v Officer Jones" thing, you need to understand your usage of terminology is under scrutiny. Bobby is the victim of a crime. The State is a victim of the suspect breaking the law. If there is no law covering the crime, there is no crime committed, by definition. If there is no victim, there is no crime, by definition. Thus, the State is a victim as long as a crime is committed because the State deems that it's laws must be followed.
About this whole "Boddy v Officer Jones" thing, you need to understand your usage of terminology is under scrutiny. Bobby is the victim of a crime. The State is a victim of the suspect breaking the law. If there is no law covering the crime, there is no crime committed, by definition. If there is no victim, there is no crime, by definition. Thus, the State is a victim as long as a crime is committed because the State deems that it's laws must be followed.
gunsmith
member
I saw the video and changed my mind
a clear case of police harassment by CBS, the commie broadcast system.
it was clearly edited to make the cops look bad, a poor attempt at mike moore tactics, the part you didn't see hear is the "investigator" gas lighting the cops. one second they are trying to help him and a second later they are threatening him? it doesn't pass the smell test, it's completely bogus.
it's the same treatment they give us gun owners, like when they do a story on "assault guns" and they show a class three AK destroying plaster walls but the story is on scary looking 22 rifles with a pistol grip.
this is just CBS cop bashing pure and simple, the "investigator" had an agenda and an attidude and he is a whiny liar, I have zero doubt he thinks that no one except for a communist control police force and army needs guns.
after all the time we have spent on exposing mike moore how could anyone fall for this bogus amature attempt at the same tripe?
a clear case of police harassment by CBS, the commie broadcast system.
it was clearly edited to make the cops look bad, a poor attempt at mike moore tactics, the part you didn't see hear is the "investigator" gas lighting the cops. one second they are trying to help him and a second later they are threatening him? it doesn't pass the smell test, it's completely bogus.
it's the same treatment they give us gun owners, like when they do a story on "assault guns" and they show a class three AK destroying plaster walls but the story is on scary looking 22 rifles with a pistol grip.
this is just CBS cop bashing pure and simple, the "investigator" had an agenda and an attidude and he is a whiny liar, I have zero doubt he thinks that no one except for a communist control police force and army needs guns.
after all the time we have spent on exposing mike moore how could anyone fall for this bogus amature attempt at the same tripe?
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Vex said:
Again I believe you are too close to the problem. You assume the Legislators can do no wrong. If the Legislators enacted a law that everyone has to shoot a LEO if they see one, would that be just because it is the "law"?
Autolycus
Member
Vex said:
Well the thing is sometimes we fear retaliation for filling out complaints. In my state the cops are allowed to go armed (I am not), have my name, physical description, picture, address, fingerprints, and phone number on file. If one of them wanted to get revenge it wouldnt be that hard.
Vex
Member
Derby FALs said:
I really don't see the relevance in your question, and I think you've lost sight of what started this. We were originally talking about complaints by citizens on police, to which my original explanation was that if a department doesnt give out blank, anonymous complaint forms, its probably for a reason. One example I cited was that if someone complains about an officer anonymously, it will mostly likely just be thrown away because unless you have a victim, there is no crime. You still have not given me a single incident where a crime was committed, yet there was no victim. Maybe it's because it doesn't exist? Now you want to move the conversation on to the rights of the State to enact laws and the relevancy of these laws?
I think we've hi-jacked this thread, and it's probably best if we just let this debate die of starvation, if you get my drift.
Tecumseh, I completely understand your feeling on this matter. I wish I could tell you that this wouldn't happen, but I'd be lying. However, I certainly hope that if a complaint is justified and true, the "victim" of any police misconduct would be brave enough to take a stand.
Autolycus
Member
Jeff White said:
I have filed anonamyous complaints (over the phone so technically they have the number I used to make the call; often my cell; but in theory I could use a payphone or someone elses phone) and seen a police response. Although it was about noise complaints and nothing life and death.
Vex
Member
Tecumseh said:
Reporting crimes anonymously is certainly legal. Why? Because if there's an incident of excessive, for example, and this noise is indeed a violation of the law, then the police respond to the crime and could charge offenders with a crime against the state, such as an offense against the public peace.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Semantics. Let it die.Vex said:
Tecumseh,
We respond to anonymous complaints many times a day. But those complaints are dispatched as make your own case. In other words, without a complainant to give us a statement, there is little we can do unless we see the illegal activity ourselves.
The number of DUI complaints that come in anonymously is staggering. When we do find the suspect vehicle, we don't pull it over unless we witness the erratic driving ourselves. An anonymous complaint isn't probable cause to take much action if we don't observe an illegal act. Another big category is nusiance calls, barking dogs, loud parties and such. If I get a barking dog complaint at 2:30 am, and when I go to the residence, the dog is quiet, should I wake the homeowner and tell him to keep his dog quiet or issue a citation? Now if the complainant wants to give me a written statement that the dog was barking and was keeping him awake, I will wake the homeowner and warn or cite him. Why, because I have a statement from a witness to an illegal activity that I didn't see myself.
There are plenty of ways to file a complaint about an officer. In a small department, go in and talk to the chief. A large department may have an internal affairs unit that you can talk to.
Police work is not the kind of job where you are going to make everyone happy all the time. The nature of the job requires you to do things to people that they don't like. I had a formal complaint filed against me over a parking ticket once. Yes, a parking ticket. I was on patrol one evening and they were parked two deep around the new fitness center in town. Including parking right up to the intersection. I had to inch the squad car out into traffic to see around the illegally parked cars to cross the intersection. I stopped and issued a parking ticket to every illegally parked car there.
About an hour later, dispatch called and told me I had a very unhappy customer in the lobby. There was a young woman who had received one of the parking tickets and she was livid. Cussed out the dispatcher after she was told if she wanted to make a formal complaint she could see the chief in the morning. Well 8 am the next morning she's in the chief's office with her parking ticket and she hadn't cooled down a bit. The chief told her that she hadn't been singled out, that all the illegally parked cars were ticketed and he was glad an officer took the initiative to ticket the cars, because he had noticed the parking problem and was about to put an order out to write some tickets there before there was an accident. He also told her that she should consider herself lucky that I gave her a break by writing the violation under the city ordinance which was a $10.00 fine and not the Illinois vehicle code which would have been a $75.00 fine.
I have a friend on another department who had a formal complaint filed because he spilled coffee on himself. He was working a traffic detail one morning and he'd just went through the drive through and got himself a cup of coffee, then went to his designated spot to run radar. A car shot by him at 19 mph over the limit, he locked the radar in and pulled the car over. As he pulled out of the place he was sitting, he sloshed a little coffee into his lap. They wear navy blue uniform pants so he wasn't worried about looking like he had a bladder contol problem. He stopped the car, issued the driver a citation and didn't think a thing about it.
Two hours later, he gets a radio call to go to the station and see the chief. He goes into the station and is ushered into the chief's office. Sitting there is the woman he had issued the ticket to earlier. She was upset because the officer's crotch was steaming when he was standing outside her car. My friend didn't think that it was a crisp Fall morning and that even though no one could see the small amount of coffee he spilled, it was apparently steaming. In retrospect it sounds pretty funny, but it wasn't very funny at the time.
People comlain about all kinds of things all the time, and not having compaint forms available in the lobby doesn't seem to slow them down much.
Jeff
We respond to anonymous complaints many times a day. But those complaints are dispatched as make your own case. In other words, without a complainant to give us a statement, there is little we can do unless we see the illegal activity ourselves.
The number of DUI complaints that come in anonymously is staggering. When we do find the suspect vehicle, we don't pull it over unless we witness the erratic driving ourselves. An anonymous complaint isn't probable cause to take much action if we don't observe an illegal act. Another big category is nusiance calls, barking dogs, loud parties and such. If I get a barking dog complaint at 2:30 am, and when I go to the residence, the dog is quiet, should I wake the homeowner and tell him to keep his dog quiet or issue a citation? Now if the complainant wants to give me a written statement that the dog was barking and was keeping him awake, I will wake the homeowner and warn or cite him. Why, because I have a statement from a witness to an illegal activity that I didn't see myself.
There are plenty of ways to file a complaint about an officer. In a small department, go in and talk to the chief. A large department may have an internal affairs unit that you can talk to.
Police work is not the kind of job where you are going to make everyone happy all the time. The nature of the job requires you to do things to people that they don't like. I had a formal complaint filed against me over a parking ticket once. Yes, a parking ticket. I was on patrol one evening and they were parked two deep around the new fitness center in town. Including parking right up to the intersection. I had to inch the squad car out into traffic to see around the illegally parked cars to cross the intersection. I stopped and issued a parking ticket to every illegally parked car there.
About an hour later, dispatch called and told me I had a very unhappy customer in the lobby. There was a young woman who had received one of the parking tickets and she was livid. Cussed out the dispatcher after she was told if she wanted to make a formal complaint she could see the chief in the morning. Well 8 am the next morning she's in the chief's office with her parking ticket and she hadn't cooled down a bit. The chief told her that she hadn't been singled out, that all the illegally parked cars were ticketed and he was glad an officer took the initiative to ticket the cars, because he had noticed the parking problem and was about to put an order out to write some tickets there before there was an accident. He also told her that she should consider herself lucky that I gave her a break by writing the violation under the city ordinance which was a $10.00 fine and not the Illinois vehicle code which would have been a $75.00 fine.
I have a friend on another department who had a formal complaint filed because he spilled coffee on himself. He was working a traffic detail one morning and he'd just went through the drive through and got himself a cup of coffee, then went to his designated spot to run radar. A car shot by him at 19 mph over the limit, he locked the radar in and pulled the car over. As he pulled out of the place he was sitting, he sloshed a little coffee into his lap. They wear navy blue uniform pants so he wasn't worried about looking like he had a bladder contol problem. He stopped the car, issued the driver a citation and didn't think a thing about it.
Two hours later, he gets a radio call to go to the station and see the chief. He goes into the station and is ushered into the chief's office. Sitting there is the woman he had issued the ticket to earlier. She was upset because the officer's crotch was steaming when he was standing outside her car. My friend didn't think that it was a crisp Fall morning and that even though no one could see the small amount of coffee he spilled, it was apparently steaming. In retrospect it sounds pretty funny, but it wasn't very funny at the time.
People comlain about all kinds of things all the time, and not having compaint forms available in the lobby doesn't seem to slow them down much.
Jeff
Autolycus
Member
Jeff White: I understand that it would be easier to make a case with the name of the complainer. I was just saying that it is possible. No debate there.
As for the coffee thing.
Someone had to much time on their hands. I watched one cop when I worked at the gas station on the night shift have a pizza eating contest with me. (I brought some in as I worked at a pizza parlor and the gas station with a small restaurant.) He was in there everynight and we got to know eachother. He burned his tongue on some of the pizza and threatened to arrest me for assault (before anybody askes he was joking!). I guess he got a call and he spilled soda pop all over himself when he dropped his pizza on the table. His Lt. came in and told me that he had to go home and change his uniform because his ticketbook was all sticky. Everynight after that when he came in I made sure he had a lid for his cup.
Here is a funny joke about citizens complaints and what not:
A couple of kids in the South get pulled over for speeding. When the trooper approaches the car, the driver says 'What's the problem, sir?'.
The trooper takes out his machined aluminum flashlight and whacks the kid across the head saying 'You don't speak to a state trooper unless you're spoken to'.
The trooper writes out the citation and gives it to the driver who responds 'Thanks a lot'.
The trooper again gives the kid a dose of the flashlight and says 'When you address a state trooper, you finish your sentence with the word sir'.
He then walks over to the passenger side and whacks the other kid with the flashlight.
The kid says 'What was that for, sir?'
The trooper says 'I was just fulfilling your wish.
Y'all wouldn't have gotten 100 yards down this road before you'd have said to your friend, "I wish he'd have hit me with that flashlight", so I fulfilled your wish.'
As for the coffee thing.
Someone had to much time on their hands. I watched one cop when I worked at the gas station on the night shift have a pizza eating contest with me. (I brought some in as I worked at a pizza parlor and the gas station with a small restaurant.) He was in there everynight and we got to know eachother. He burned his tongue on some of the pizza and threatened to arrest me for assault (before anybody askes he was joking!). I guess he got a call and he spilled soda pop all over himself when he dropped his pizza on the table. His Lt. came in and told me that he had to go home and change his uniform because his ticketbook was all sticky. Everynight after that when he came in I made sure he had a lid for his cup.Here is a funny joke about citizens complaints and what not:
A couple of kids in the South get pulled over for speeding. When the trooper approaches the car, the driver says 'What's the problem, sir?'.
The trooper takes out his machined aluminum flashlight and whacks the kid across the head saying 'You don't speak to a state trooper unless you're spoken to'.
The trooper writes out the citation and gives it to the driver who responds 'Thanks a lot'.
The trooper again gives the kid a dose of the flashlight and says 'When you address a state trooper, you finish your sentence with the word sir'.
He then walks over to the passenger side and whacks the other kid with the flashlight.
The kid says 'What was that for, sir?'
The trooper says 'I was just fulfilling your wish.
Y'all wouldn't have gotten 100 yards down this road before you'd have said to your friend, "I wish he'd have hit me with that flashlight", so I fulfilled your wish.'
KriegHund
Member
The first 'officer' was openly threatening the guy.
The others are a bit more understandable. I can see why they might bea little hostile to a person wishing to file a complaint against a fellow officer.
That said, alot of that stuff was unacceptable. Insults, threats?
There are alot of good cops out there that i respect, but there are a few that ruin it for the rest.
Respect civilians and (the majority) of civilians will respect you. Watch a cops epsidoe and you can see that alot of police officers have enormous amounts of patience.
But, like teaching, there are a few who think they are somehow "Holier than thou".
The others are a bit more understandable. I can see why they might bea little hostile to a person wishing to file a complaint against a fellow officer.
That said, alot of that stuff was unacceptable. Insults, threats?
There are alot of good cops out there that i respect, but there are a few that ruin it for the rest.
Respect civilians and (the majority) of civilians will respect you. Watch a cops epsidoe and you can see that alot of police officers have enormous amounts of patience.
But, like teaching, there are a few who think they are somehow "Holier than thou".
No denying that some of the officers in the video overreacted, but I'm always curious, if not downright suspcious, about the conveniently edited-out parts of news stories like these. It underscores my belief that the news media iis only interested in showing what they want viewers to see.
Optical Serenity said:Every time I see one of these cop bashing threads, I remind myself not to judge all citizens by the thousands I see all the time who are criminals.
Wow, can you imagine? If I judged everyone I come in contact with by the criminals I deal with?
Do you even see the irony?
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