Cops need 54 Rounds for one Gunman.

[CoyoteSix]

You can see the vid here --> http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/20...ign-and-dumps-on-police-when-pulled/#comments

Full article here ---> http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/middlefield_police_release_vid.html

Apparently it took the two officers 54-ish rounds fired to stop the gunman. Not 54 rounds on target but 54 rounds fired in general.

My question is: If it took two trained officers 54 rounds to take down one gunman, How are civilians supposed to do the same with 10 or 7 round magazines?

 

[AFDavis11]

Aiming

 

[CoyoteSix]

^^ True, but last time I checked there's not an easy (Or even legal) way to train for someone magdumping 7.62x39 at you.

 

[alsaqr]

Cops need 54 Rounds for one Gunman.

The number of rounds fired by the police does not matter. Both cops did very well under the circumstances. The vim and vigor went out of gunman after he took a round in the belly.

i don't know how a civilian using a 5-7 round magazine is supposed to take down a shooter using an AK-47. With any luck he would have brought along a model 670 shotgun and buckshot.

 

[SilentScream]

One thing to remember is the average gun owner shoots/practices WAY more than your average cop. Cops as a general rule (obviously there's always exceptions) shoot only when it's qual time.

 

[M-Cameron]

Apparently it took the two officers 54-ish rounds fired to stop the gunman. Not 54 rounds on target but 54 rounds fired in general.

My question is: If it took two trained officers 54 rounds to take down one gunman, How are civilians supposed to do the same with 10 or 7 round magazines?

because even making the large assumption lawmakers honestly give a crap about the regular citizen........they think gunfights are like they are in the movies....

....where the good guys are always good....the bad guys are always bad......and you always only ever need 1-2 rounds to stop someone...and a 7 round mag actually can hold enough rounds to fire 300 shots before reloading.

they dont realize that sometimes even under the best of circumstances, it can take upwards of 10+ HITS to actually stop someone...and that sometimes, its pretty damn hard to hit your target when they are shooting back at you.

One thing to remember is the average gun owner shoots/practices WAY more than your average cop. Cops as a general rule (obviously there's always exceptions) shoot only when it's qual time.

no, your average gun ENTHUSIAST shoots more than an average cop.........your average gun OWNER keeps a shotgun or a rifle for hunting and maybe owns a handgun, and they only shoot at game or to sight in their guns before a hunt.

 

[CoyoteSix]

Oh I'm not criticizing the LEO's, I'm just wondering how legislators expect us to defend ourselves with 7 or 10 when it takes LEO's 54.

 

[Impureclient]

Did he reload twice?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Now as Jeff Cooper once wrote..

Which takes more time, a bunch of shots fired mighty fast that some may hit or slow down just a fraction of a second to watch that front sight?

Yes he was talking about 9mm .vs. .45 ACP but in reality only good hits count for anything. While I have nothing against 15 shot pistols (I have some) it's those first few that count so much. If you lose control of your self and start spraying then only by luck will you stop the attacker. That is why they call it 'spray-n-pray'.

So when you go out and train, push yourself for good hits ALWAYS. No matter how far or close, fast or slow, big targets are small, force yourself to slow down just enough to get good hits every time.

And train often!

Deaf

 

[allaroundhunter]

Oh I'm not criticizing the LEO's, I'm just wondering how legislators expect us to defend ourselves with 7 or 10 when it takes LEO's 54.

Legislators don't expect us to do that. They expect to call the police and let them handle it.

How would I handle it? With an AR-15 and a 30 round magazine or two.

 

[CoyoteSix]

Gotta rub it in don't you AllAround?

 

[allaroundhunter]

Gotta rub it in don't you AllAround?

I'm just saying, my state and local legislators don't want to take my guns away so it is an option that I keep and will use. There is a reason that many officers are also issued ARs. Going up against a high-powered rifle with handguns is just a bad idea to begin with. Glad to see these officers are okay, but if their adversary had any idea in the world as to what he was doing then they wouldn't be. This should be more of a reason for this department to issue rifles to its officers as opposed to argue that civilians should be allowed to own standard capacity magazines.

 

[Rexster]

Regarding average gun owners training more than the average police officer, well, actually, when I worked security at an FFL dealer, "moonlighting" in the daylight, an employee told me about 90% of the pre-owned firearms brought in by their original owners were as yet unfired, and plenty of the guns that had been fired were brought in with most of the first box of ammo that had been bought new along with the gun. (This store would not purchase the pre-owned ammo.)

This store was in an urban area, which might affect the likelihood of a firearm being fired. I would think that a more rural demographic might shoot more often.

The average THR member probably does, indeed, train more than the average police officer.

I wear a badge, and practice, well, somewhat more than the average LEO. Before some structural parts of my body started diminishing in their capacity, I practiced much more than the average police officer. A .22 LR conversion unit for my duty pistol is on my short list, unless I retire first. (I am less than a year away from 30 years of service!)

 

[CoyoteSix]

I live in a free state too AllAround, I just can't afford that dream rifle anytime soon! :banghead:

 

[Rexster]

Random thoughts:

I would think that the rounds fired through the cruiser's windshield might not have been all that accurate!

I am getting tired of some folks thinking that part of "serving and protecting" is to act as suicide assistants. "Suicide by cop" and "blue suicide" are two terms for this I have seen, and the younger generation may have their own current terms for it. I have killed two people. One was certainly suicide by cop; he had already cut his own throat, but managed to miss the relevant parts.

The other ran in front of of my patrol car, and when I swerved to iss him, he lunged back into my path at the last instant, leaving me no time to react again before the impact; a probable suicide by cop.

FWIW, I do second-guess myself, sometimes, about the auto-ped. I do not second-guess myself about the other.

I do not judge these officers who fired a collective 54 rounds. To be clear, I do not, generally, believe in suppressive fire, especially in urbanized areas. If, however, they did not hit any innocents, they lived through it themselves, and nailed the bad guy, then I will presume they did the right thing at that particular moment in time.

 

[Texan Scott]

I'm not law enforcement ... not only is it not my duty to seek out and engage armed criminals, it is generally not even within my legal remit to do so.

I may or may not have a duty to retreat (run, hide), but I have the option to do so.

And believe you me, given half a chance, I'm gonna.

 

[thump_rrr]

One thing to remember is the average gun owner shoots/practices WAY more than your average cop. Cops as a general rule (obviously there's always exceptions) shoot only when it's qual time.

I beg to differ. The average gun enthusiast who shoots often shoots more than the average police officer.
I believe that gun enthusiasts like car enthusiasts are probably 5% of the gun owning public.

 

[chrisTx]

Moral of the story: good people with guns stop bad people with guns. Good people without guns die by the truckload to bad people with guns, until good people with guns finally show up.

 

[Certaindeaf]

They don't all look alike.

 

[berettaprofessor]

In the video of the shooting at the second link, right after the shooting stops, I think I hear a good samaritan come up to the cops, tell them he has a pistol, and ask if they're okay. Am I imagining that?

 

[Reloadron]

Yeah, it made all the news up here. Ever wonder where so many bullets went? Note the small white car entering the intersection. Note the holy crap reverse. Middlefield, Ohio is a small quiet community where Amish buggies share the roads with motor traffic.

Nobody seems to have a clue what motivated this guy. Besides the AK type rifle shown with a 40 round magazine (he did manage 37 rounds fired) he also had 8 more 40 round magazines loaded at the ready in the car, plus more stuff.

The guy was stopped for a minor traffic violation so the question becomes where was he going and what was on his mind? I guess he also liked reading:

The names of some of the literature were "Backyard Rocketry: Converting Model Rockets Into Explosive Missiles," "Advanced Close-range Gun Fighting," "Homemade Detonators: How To Make Them." Another described how to get rid of a dead body.

The evening news showed all the books, loaded magazines and he also had some other gun or guns. I forget.

The guy also had a clean past, no criminal record. Don't know about mental illness yet or if they mentioned it I missed it. You have to wonder what this guys plan or intent was and if he had not been stopped what may have happened.

Ron

 

[feedthehogs]

Two cops standing toe to toe with hand guns against an AK is pretty courageous.

Not like NY cops cornering some guy in a door way and open fire against a wallet.

 

[Slamfire]

Well at least they shot the guy with a gun, New York Cops shot 41 times and hit an unarmed man 19 times, killing the man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo_shooting

This magazine cover is from after the event:

 

[PabloJ]

You can see the vid here --> http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/20...ign-and-dumps-on-police-when-pulled/#comments

Full article here ---> http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/middlefield_police_release_vid.html

Apparently it took the two officers 54-ish rounds fired to stop the gunman. Not 54 rounds on target but 54 rounds fired in general.

My question is: If it took two trained officers 54 rounds to take down one gunman, How are civilians supposed to do the same with 10 or 7 round magazines?

It's sad for me to say, but average European street cop shoots and moves like American SWAT team member.

 

[Averageman]

An interview with Cole Younger;..it would appear some folks are a little harder to kill?

http://www.civilwarstlouis.com/history2/jamescoleinterview.htm

Q. How often have you and your brothers been wounded?

A. I have been wounded altogether twenty times; eleven of these wounds were received at Northfield. Jim was wounded four times at Northfield, and six times in all. Bob was never wounded until the pursuit in Minnesota, where he was struck three times.