Cops Raid Wrong Home, Taser Man

[DorGunR]

coronach posted:
2. We own houses, too. I shudder to think what would happen if a tactical team came pouring into my house at 4:30 AM.
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Yeah........that scares the crap outta me too.......cause I'm afraid I'm gonna be pumping lead.

Hello coronach long time no see....hope you have been well my friend.

 

[Keith]

http://adn.com/alaska/story/3879911p-3903136c.html

Burglars hold three children at gunpoint
INVASION: Suspects were apparently seeking marijuana, troopers say.

By S.J. KOMARNITSKY
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: September 9, 2003)
WASILLA -- Two young men apparently looking for a marijuana grow broke into a Wasilla-area home this weekend and held three children at gunpoint before being chased off by the children's father, Alaska State Troopers said.

The family, which is renting the home off Wasilla-Fishhook Road, was shaken up but unharmed during the Saturday morning break-in, trooper Dave Herrell said. The home contained no marijuana plants, but the father, Johnnie Wallace, said the landlord told him a previous tenant was kicked out for growing dope.

The children held at gunpoint included a 14-year-old girl, her 5-year-old brother and their 11/2-year-old sister.

Wallace said in a telephone interview that he and his wife, Charlene, were sleeping when two men broke in about 11 a.m. The couple were asleep because they had spent the early-morning hours delivering newspapers, he said.

The children were downstairs watching cartoons. A man, who appeared to be in his late teens or possibly 20, came to the door asking for someone who doesn't live there, Wallace said.

The 14-year-old girl told him he had the wrong house, and he left. But about 20 minutes later, he and another man about the same age returned. This time, when the girl answered the door, the two pushed their way in.

One suspect pointed a handgun at the girl and told her to lie on the floor and be quiet, Herrell said. Her siblings started crying, and the girl asked if they could sit next to her. The suspect allowed the three to sit together, the trooper said.

Meanwhile, the other suspect ran down to the basement, where he pulled insulation from around a window and rummaged around apparently looking for a secret room, Herrell said. He then came back upstairs and demanded to know "Where's the weed?" the trooper said.

About that time, Wallace heard his son crying. He said he thought maybe the boy had fallen. As he came out of his room, he saw one man coming up the stairs and the other standing near the door, he said.

"I said, 'What's going on here?' " he said.

The two then ran out the door.

Wallace said his landlord told him after the break-in that he had kicked out a former tenant for growing marijuana in the house. Herrell, the trooper, knew of no arrests made at the house but said the landlord had told him a previous tenant had run up outrageously high electric bills.

"I don't think it had anything to do with having 20 microwave ovens or anything like that," Herrell said.

The landlord could not immediately be reached for comment Monday.

The family has been renting the house for a month, Wallace said, adding that he's made an offer to buy another house and expects to close next month. Wallace said the move can't come soon enough.

 

[Coronach]

These situations scare the crap out of me because I have had a cop try to serve a warrant at the wrong residence, namely mine. The cop got the address wrong but, thankfully, rather than kicking in the door, he knocked.

This is how the vast majority of warrants are served. If you deviate from this, you simply must be correct about the address, the occupants, the scenario, everything.

Mike

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

You know, I just can't seem to sleep at that hour anymore. I am wide awake at 3:00am every morning. At least the man wasn't shot 49 times.

 

[TallPine]

I just don't remember hearing about these no-knock raids thirty or forty years ago.

Has the world really changed that much that we need them now and didn't need them then?

( I respect your point of view, Mike - I just don't understand it yet )

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I just don't get it .... Whatever happened to discrete survellaince and nailing the guy when he goes out to get more beer?

2 or 3 officers in a couple of cars who swoop in on the subject while stepping into the Quickee Mart doesn't make the papers as dramatically as "Swat Team Takes Down Wanted Fugitive" and makes it harder to justify the budget expenditures for all that new SWAT gear to replace last year's new SWAT gear.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[seeker_two]

The nine or 10 officers, most from the Okanogan County Sheriff's Office, were serving a "no-knock" warrant because they believed the man they were after was armed , said sheriff's Deputy Ernie Gahimer, who participated in the raid.

Heck, that's everyone in my entire COUNTY!!!

Kudos to Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers for admitting the error & trying to make it right.

If only ALL LEO'S were so upstanding...

(...and I'm glad no one was killed or severely injured---on BOTH sides! )

 

[moa]

Brings to mind an no knock raid in Baltimore last year. The guy they were looking for got off six apparently unaimed shots with a .45. Four officers wounded for five times.

Shooter was not charged, much to the anger of the police Chief. The police apparently failed to follow procedure.

It still amazes me about the necessity of many of these no knock raids. If bail bondsmen and bounty hunters can make arrests without the heroics and casualities, then why can't law enforcement do the same? And the bail bondsmen do not need a search warrant to enter the premises.

I remember reading someplace here on the Board, that the last statistics for New York City, was that they had over 13,000 no knock raids, and about 10% were at the wrong address. Seems kind of high, but very startling.

 

[Doctor Wu]

I too am pleased that all they did was Taser him.

First thing to do to help prevent this from happening to you.
Post your house numbers in six inch or taller, glow in the dark numbers and keep it lighted so these geniuses can see the address on your house.

Next, beef up your entry ways.
Aint nobody coming through my front door without alot of racket and multiple attempts. Avon rounds will fail, pry bars will fail, only a chain with a grapple hooked to a moving vehicle or a good cable winch will open the doors to my humble abode.

I know the difficulty the cops have with my door set up, cause I have been there watching the SWAT guys try to breech one.
I was laughing so hard I fell out of my patrol car.
SWAT guys hate it when us mere mortals in patrol laugh at them.
It angers them even more when you yell, "Why don't you call him and have him open the door?"

FWIW, I feel SWAT teams are greatly overused.

 

[Doctor Wu]

From Tallpine:

I just don't remember hearing about these no-knock raids thirty or forty years ago.
Has the world really changed that much that we need them now and didn't need them then?

Tallpine,
I won't pretend to answer for Mike, but here is my take on it.

I believe things are a little bit more dangerous, but my dept uses SWAT on all the "high risk" warrants out of pure liability.
Defense lawyers have whined that SWAT was only used on their client because their client is _______.
If an officer gets killed serving a "high risk" warrant, then the spouse and/or family of the deceased can sue for negligence, because their family member was placed in harms way, instead of using the unit that is specially trained for such deployments.
There are other liability driven reasons for my depts use of SWAT, sadly they all were derived from abuse of the courts by lawyers representing their clients.

So instead of each situation being reviewed and then a decision is made as to use SWAT or not, a blanket rule has been made that we "Shall" use SWAT.

Which works out fine, as long as they go to the correct address.

 

[Moparmike]

And how is your humble abode secured? This might come in handy for the rest of us whom wish to beef up the outer perimeter of our domicile.

 

[pax]

"The bottom line is, we screwed up," Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers said.

What a refreshing quote!

He didn't say "mistakes were made." He said "We screwed up." He didn't pass the buck to someone else further up or down the line. He acknowledged on behalf of his department that the department was at fault.

Kudos to Sheriff Rogers -- and I'm going to write to both his department and their local paper and say so. Such an honest statement is rare and commendable.

No one was seriously hurt in the 4:50 a.m. Thursday incident, authorities and residents said Monday.

Not only did they screw up, they lucked out.

The heavily armed officers, all wearing ski masks and camouflage clothing, ....

Hopefully with the "POLICE" logo on them somewhere.

Not that that should stop any honest citizen from protecting his domicile from what are obviously thugs. Any honest citizen knows there's no reason for police to be breaking into his house at 4 in the blessed a.m. Therefore, if the house is getting broken into, bad guys are doing it and should be dealt with as such. If you are a LEO and this line of reasoning bothers you, it means that you know, deep in your heart, that such mistaken raids are far too common.

"I feel bad for the people," the sheriff said. "We'll just make amends as best we can."

The sheriff's office asked the owners of the trailer park to replace the broken door as soon as possible and send the bill to the sheriff, he said.

I tell you, leadership like this is rare. "Deny, deny, deny" is usually the ploy of the day. (Heh, up in ... er, dunno the name of the town but in the Olympia area, there's a widow lady whose house had a couple walls knocked out by the boys in blue in a similar incident earlier this year. Guess who hasn't repaired the damage for her?)

Raeann Sanabria, who is married to Jose, said the family is still waiting for a new door, plus replacements for two interior bedroom doors that were broken.

"Still waiting" -- journalist might be a little unfair to phrase it like that. Been less than a week. You can pick a door up at Home Depot off the floor, but if you order a door to match the old one, it'll take a couple weeks.

"How can they get the wrong address? It doesn't make me like police very much," she said.

Hey, all you boys in blue: no-knock raids make your jobs more dangerous. Your safety depends upon the willing cooperation of ordinary citizens. Every single one of these incidents makes more enemies for you out on the street. You think you feel beleaguered now? The more these incidents take place, the more enemies you've got.

While the deputies were in the wrong home, Parisien, the original target, ran out of another trailer and was arrested without incident, Gahimer said.

Proving yet again that most criminals are D-U-M-B.

Btw, the 'arrested without incident' doesn't speak well for the necessity of this particular no-knock, does it.

Parisien was wanted on a Colville Tribal warrant for failure to appear and, according to a Spokane County Superior Court clerk, for allegedly violating conditions for his release pending sentencing on drug charges.

Hmmm, so which was it? Second degree assault? Or breaking parole rules on drug charges? Both?

The sheriff's office is conducting an investigation to determine whether any officers should be disciplined, he said.

Someone should. It's just a question of who.

Oh, and the no-knock policy should be revamped so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again. No-knocks meet certain legitimate LEO needs in some very illegitimate ways. The policy should be revised so that a no-knock is never performed if there are any alternatives to doing a no-knock.

pax

A policeman's job is only easy in a police state. -- Orson Welles

 

[TallPine]

Which works out fine, as long as they go to the correct address.

Agreed, but ...

how do you (I mean LE agencies) determine a "high risk" arrest?

If the net gets cast wide enough, then you risk including someone who may have honestly forgotten about a traffic ticket or something.

Most of us here on THR would not expect to be SWATed in our homes because we haven't done anything wrong - as far as we know, anyway - and would assume that the SWAT was NOT and respond accordingly.

Bad situation for both sides.

I always thought most fugitives got themselves caught by speeding or something ...?

But I am beginning to think the real problem is a criminal (in)justice system that is:
a) persecuting people for substance use, and
b) letting violent criminals back out on the streets all too soon again and again.

The problem with "catch and release" is that the catching can get so dangerous.

 

[TheeBadOne]

In my neck of the woods 2nd Degree Assault is Assault with a deadly weapon (gun).

FWIW

 

[standingbear]

1 more way to insure they dont get the wrong place- hanging strings of tin cans in the doorway and draping em across the floor.too bad the occupants hadnt thought of that one,im sure the combined noise would have awakened the people in the next town as well.definatly a sound to be rukus with. -in all seriousness though..charging through the door dressed in camies and wearing ski masks aint gonna make many people i know submissive.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Yeah, but we're not a police state.

 

[Doctor Wu]

And how is your humble abode secured? This might come in handy for the rest of us whom wish to beef up the outer perimeter of our domicile.

Oh yah, forgot to mention that.
The outer doors on my abode, were made by a buddy on my dept, they are wrought iron.
They are not the flimsy "security doors" that are sold commercially, it is very heavy metal welded completely, not just touched by the welder to keep it from falling apart, with heavy duty hinges also.

The frame is heavily anchored at several points, especially around the lock mechanism. Which often flex on cheaper doors when a simple pry bar is used on them, popping them open with minimal effort.
The locks are the pricier ones made of stainless steel, rather than the brass and aluminum that most "deadbolt" locks are made from. They don't fall apart from contact with breaching loads, like the cheaper locks do.
The outer door opens outward, so it can't be forced in, it has to be forced open.

The inner doors are next.
They are simple metal doors in metal door frames, with the same locks as above.
I see people with expensive doors and deadbolts, that are easily defeated because the door frame is thin pine and shatters with minimal effort.

I give this info out all the time to burglary victims and those concerned about home invasions, nothing fancy, just better quality components and a little extra effort to make your home safer from anyone wishing to force their way in.

 

[Doctor Wu]

Tallpine,
My dept only does "home visits" to serve felony warrants for drug and violent crime offenses. Fraud and property crimes get pretty much a free ride from "home visits" around here.
Traffic warrants are rarely served, even when the person is encountered on the street.
Misd warrants are served a little more frequently, but honestly we don't serve all that many unless they are DV, DUI or child related. We just don't have the manpower to serve low end warrants.

You are very correct in the fact that what is "high risk" can change without notice to those effected. Leaving that moniker up to the judgement of the incident commander. (shudder)
I don't like blanket policies, they lead to people being Lemmings and not thinking for themselves, but then again that may be just what they want from such policies. I don't know for sure yet.

In a large city area, it is easy to go undetected in the masses with any kind of warrant, last time I looked we had over 30,000 misd warrants outstanding, not sure how many people since many people have multiple warrants, but that's alot of warrants for a city of 500,000+.
In a smaller area where there are few people with outstanding warrants, the cops there go after many more of them.
How they do that is based upon their policies, whether good or bad policies, I don't know.

I too watch the happenings in le with a jaundiced eye.
I also agree about the worthless WoD and letting violent criminals back out at the drop of a hat.

 

[C.R.Sam]

If bail bondsmen and bounty hunters can make arrests without the heroics and casualities, then why can't law enforcement do the same? And the bail bondsmen do not need a search warrant to enter the premises.

Bounty hunters blow it too, on occaision. Couple years ago there was a high profile wrong addy bounty intrusion that turned into a fatal gunfight in Phoenix.

No knock has a place.

No knock idea scares me.
But, being deaf, knock n smash scares me equally.

Sam

 

[Fed168]

Tallpine, a couple things are looked at prior to determining if the warrant service is high risk. The nature of the charge and the suspect's history are the two big ones.

 

[SkunkApe]

Seems to me the authorities should:

1) Conduct an investigation and find out who was responsible.

2) Allow the victim to Taser the police officers responsible.

3) Allow the victim ten minutes in the responsible person's house with a sledgehammer.

That oughta learn 'em.

 

[GSMD Fan]

This is a tough thread. No winners in this one.

First, if my guys go through your door and you start shooting you are in a world of hurt. It is three in the morning, you just wake up, and you are shooting it out with 5-10 guys with MP5/M4/Benelli and level III body armor. They have sure fire lights on the weapon foregrip, EOtech sights, and practice doing this. Obviously, the home owner is clearly outgunned. Very few rolling out of bed will defeat them.

Would a law abiding homeowner expect the guys breaking in the door to be police? Heck no, why would he, he has not broken any law. So the homeowner feels the need to defend himself and family.

Say the homeowner is killed or injured. Besides the obvious grief of the family think how the officer feels.

That is why using SWAT/SRT require a great deal of recon and planning.

For all the dynamic entries used it seems the vast majority (and I include NYCs 90% rate listed above) are at the correct address.


Not making excuses, but LE is not easy today. It is dangerous. I know, no one made anyone do it, but the guy who does it wants to go home to his family.

All concerned should thank God no one was killed. The Sheriff admitted the mistake and will do what he must to make sure it does not happen again.

Just saying no one wins in this scenario. I do not think LE does this to make up for not playing enough paintball as a kid. I think it is a sign of the times.

Oh and by the way, all our gear is not Rambo syndrome, we have a counter terrorist role on a major military installation.

 

[Chipperman]

"Are POLICE velcro badges and hats available to anyone? Seems like BGs can just buy those things and make their own raid jackets."


Well theoretically they could, but they don't because impersonating a Police Officer is illegal.

 

[seeker_two]

First, if my guys go through your door and you start shooting you are in a world of hurt. It is three in the morning, you just wake up, and you are shooting it out with 5-10 guys with MP5/M4/Benelli and level III body armor. They have sure fire lights on the weapon foregrip, EOtech sights, and practice doing this. Obviously, the home owner is clearly outgunned. Very few rolling out of bed will defeat them.

How long will it be before we all have Tokarevs & CZ-52's as "nightstand guns" for this sort of thing?...

The odds are on the side of the LEO's in this case, but Mr. Murphy often screws things up at the most inopportune times---and Lady Luck is a fickle mistress...

 

[JohnKSa]

Bounty hunters blow it too, on occaision. Couple years ago there was a high profile wrong addy bounty intrusion that turned into a fatal gunfight in Phoenix.

I'm not arguing that bounty hunters are infallible, but the incident above did not involve bounty hunters.

It was a home invasion that went badly--several of the invaders were wounded slightly (wearing body armor) and at least two of the residents were killed.

When the police got there, the invaders claimed to be bounty hunters which was how the story was initially reported. Those claims did not hold up to investigation and follow up stories published the truth--that they were simply creative criminals.

First, if my guys go through your door and you start shooting you are in a world of hurt. It is three in the morning, you just wake up, and you are shooting it out with 5-10 guys with MP5/M4/Benelli and level III body armor. They have sure fire lights on the weapon foregrip, EOtech sights, and practice doing this. Obviously, the home owner is clearly outgunned. Very few rolling out of bed will defeat them.

Right now, the guys kicking in the doors, are willing to do it because they feel invulnerable. If you don't believe it just read the post that I pulled the quote from. Why should he worry? If there's a screwup, someone has to apologize publicly and someone gets fired for giving the wrong address. In most screwup scenarios none of the actual entry team is going to take any heat at all. Heck, I'd kick down doors just for the FUN of it if I had that kind of immunity. Getting paid for it too would be gravy.

It's very simple. As long as the homeowners are the ones being shot and tasered and the cops are the ones saying "we screwed up" this is going to go on.

When the cops start getting shot and the homeowner gives the news conference then there will be a change.

I have no choice but to resist. I can't assume that someone busting down my door in the middle of the night is doing it "legally". If I give up, I run the risk of getting to watch my family tortured. If I resist, I MIGHT win, and even if I don't, being killed isn't the worst thing that can happen to me--not by a long shot.

If someone breaks into my house at night, I will get at least one of them. I've thought it out carefully, and there's no question in my mind that someone besides me will die. Body armor is becoming common enough in the criminal element that I feel it is reasonable to formulate a strategy that circumvents it. That is exactly what I have done. There are very simple and effective and legal solutions available to anyone.

IF the home invaders turn out to be LE, it will be VERY bad. There will be NO CHANCE of making any kind of trumped up charges stick because various agencies of the government have frequently and repeatedly certified me to be squeaky clean. It will be clear that a screwup of major proportions has resulted in the death of an LEO and (most likely) of an upstanding and law-abiding citizen who was just doing his best to protect his family.

There will be no chance of making my firearms and ammunition sound like an arsenal in order to paint me as some sort of weapons nut because:

1. Everything I have is absolutely and unquestionably legal.
2. I am publicly involved in firearms training type activities (certified instructor) which warrant my possessing firearms and ammunition.

AND, last but not least, my wife works for a law firm and has many friends in the legal profession.

So, anybody who plans on kicking in doors (be they criminals OR LEOs). From now on, while you head toward the door, stop for a half a second just before you get to the door--and think these thoughts: "The occupants may have a plan just like that guy on the internet--this MIGHT even be his house!"