Cops taking hostages
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goalie
Member
Ben Franklin said it well: "Those who would give up their freedom.............
I wonder what happens if the LEOs get a gun and release the perp. Then they discovered the gun was used in a murder or other serious felony. And, maybe the perp knew the history of the gun and it might be traced.
Now you have perp, perhaps a murderer, who instead of being in jail is now on the lam, and maybe desperate enough to commit more violent crimes.
And, maybe there are detectives who would like to speak to the perp, but have no opportunity because he has fled.
Now you have perp, perhaps a murderer, who instead of being in jail is now on the lam, and maybe desperate enough to commit more violent crimes.
And, maybe there are detectives who would like to speak to the perp, but have no opportunity because he has fled.
Linux&Gun Guy
Member
This is sad. If it is just minor drug charges why don't they give them a minor fine? Whats next? Cutting people's hands off it they don't give up the gun?
What a positive thing for the RKBA!!
I think it was Coronach I'm quoting above???
Every thug and low level street scum will run out and buy a pistol to keep as their "get out of jail free" card.....
Won't the gun manufacturers love that!
I think it was Coronach I'm quoting above???
Every thug and low level street scum will run out and buy a pistol to keep as their "get out of jail free" card.....
Won't the gun manufacturers love that!
feedthehogs
Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
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- 1,801
The police are becoming judge and jury instead of a court of law.
Wether the system is broken or not, due process in a court of law before a jury or judge is essential. No representation by counsel?
This should scare the crap out of people.
Wether the system is broken or not, due process in a court of law before a jury or judge is essential. No representation by counsel?
This should scare the crap out of people.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Yeah, but we're not a police state. We had to burn down the village to save it.
anapex
Member
I'm really REALLY not surprised that this is happening in Baltimore. But what I can't help but thinking is that we'd be hearing a lot more public uproar if it was the police getting tricks from hookers instead of arresting them. Darn Maryland.
Selfdfenz
Member
In an ends-justifies-the-means situation like this:
1. why not ask for dope?
2. why not ask for stolen stuff?
3. why have limits on what you demand?
Pretty soon, in B'more, you really could get away with murder if the price was right.
Wonder what happens to all those guns?
I bet there are a few here and there that never get turned in. Which means the police are crooks (twice over) or are doing things in a fashion that naturally may lead them to become so.
But, the bottom lines is the police have given up trying to stay on the best side of the law or even the better side of the law in B'more......I'm sure this kind of dealing really inspires the bad guys to respect the whole LE system up there. And the bad guys kids grow up really respecting LE too, and the people that live in neighborhoods where crime is a point you can negotiate with LE come to love and respect LE and so on and so on....
S-
1. why not ask for dope?
2. why not ask for stolen stuff?
3. why have limits on what you demand?
Pretty soon, in B'more, you really could get away with murder if the price was right.
Wonder what happens to all those guns?
I bet there are a few here and there that never get turned in. Which means the police are crooks (twice over) or are doing things in a fashion that naturally may lead them to become so.
But, the bottom lines is the police have given up trying to stay on the best side of the law or even the better side of the law in B'more......I'm sure this kind of dealing really inspires the bad guys to respect the whole LE system up there. And the bad guys kids grow up really respecting LE too, and the people that live in neighborhoods where crime is a point you can negotiate with LE come to love and respect LE and so on and so on....
S-
Balt Shakedowns
Boy this reminds me of The Wire,the HBO seriesabout Balt detective squads..But as gritty and profane as the fictional series is the cops never stoop to illegal shakedowns like this.I gotta keep up with the show since now the brass is putting the heat on the beat cops to recover an officers stolen pistol taken after he was murdered.Boy!What a concept!A major heroin dealer get a Get Out Of Jail Free card by mail ordering a black powder revovler thru the mail,and stashing it in his grandmothers basement.Take it out and fire it once so it shows some signs of use.Then the cops would be in 7th heaven after they recovered a"crime gun" Then they let the lowlife go free after presenting another token to be offered up for sacrifice on the altar of Political Correctness.I wonder how much humans have really learned after 5000 yrs of recorded history? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Boy this reminds me of The Wire,the HBO seriesabout Balt detective squads..But as gritty and profane as the fictional series is the cops never stoop to illegal shakedowns like this.I gotta keep up with the show since now the brass is putting the heat on the beat cops to recover an officers stolen pistol taken after he was murdered.Boy!What a concept!A major heroin dealer get a Get Out Of Jail Free card by mail ordering a black powder revovler thru the mail,and stashing it in his grandmothers basement.Take it out and fire it once so it shows some signs of use.Then the cops would be in 7th heaven after they recovered a"crime gun" Then they let the lowlife go free after presenting another token to be offered up for sacrifice on the altar of Political Correctness.I wonder how much humans have really learned after 5000 yrs of recorded history? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
If there was truly any integrity left in law enforcement circles, we would be reading about this case under an ongoing Title 18, Section 242 federal prosecution..."deprivation of rights under color of law". What a good and fitting use of "Project Safe Neighborhoods" resources this would be, to help eliminate police corruption.
Instead, some in the LE community have the temerity to classify this as:
I guess its OK for cops to break the law if their intentions are good (snicker, snicker). Shows just how far gone this country is.
Instead, some in the LE community have the temerity to classify this as:
I guess its OK for cops to break the law if their intentions are good (snicker, snicker). Shows just how far gone this country is.
LiquidTension
Member
Great, so if my friend accidentally dropped one of her prescription Xanax pills on the floor of my car and the cops found it, they'd steal my Kimber in exchange for not pressing drug charges.
Remind me to never go to Baltimore. Wait, I never intended to!
Remind me to never go to Baltimore. Wait, I never intended to!
Joe Demko
Member
In the heat of competing to see who can most loudly denounce this, could any of you answer this question: Are the guns that are confiscated the legal property of people who are legally entitled to own them? Or are the police taking illegally owned weapons from convicted felons or other people prohibited from owning arms? Yes, I already know that All Gun Laws Are Unconstitutional and the rest of my gunboard catechism, please just answer the question if you have a factual answer.
longrifleman
Member
There's that whole due process thing that is such a drag to deal with. Also, in the original story the perp was told to get a gun without the police caring where it came from, assuming the story was accurate (a big assumption).
The rule of law exists for a reason. For the law to be respected it must be based on clearly defined principles that are applied equally to all. That is not what is being done here. This will lead to all kinds of problems, not the least of which is viewing the police as crooks and shake-down artists by the folks dealing with this. There is already way to much distrust of the police to think this will be anyting but bad for the long term benefit to society.
Whoah now!
Hey, its cool. I'll quote you, too.
Hammer4NC:
Mike
Just a moment! You're quoting me, there. Did you read my reply? Do you really believe I am condoning this practice? Or are you deliberately pulling a quote out of context?
Hey, its cool. I'll quote you, too.
Hammer4NC:
Wow. You're quite the socialist!
Mike
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
For those commenting about "police state" and "deprivation of rights": Maybeso. But, if this weren't a fairly isolated situation, it wouldn't occur to you to think of it in this fashion.
No more than 40 or 50 years back, this would have been seen as a relatively benign way of being "proactive", to use a modern term. And back before WW II, cops' "street justice" was often much harsher.
The thing is, 40 or 50 years ago, the cops didn't have near the numbers of Joe Demko's dad's "mopes" to deal with. Sorta funny-odd: At the same time we create a societal structure that allows or causes more guys to be mopes, we've also begun worrying more about the civil rights of these mopes.
But we don't want to pay the cost of having enough law enforcement to control the mopes via truly constitutional means--and then we bitch at the cops when they use "creative enforcement".
Art
No more than 40 or 50 years back, this would have been seen as a relatively benign way of being "proactive", to use a modern term. And back before WW II, cops' "street justice" was often much harsher.
The thing is, 40 or 50 years ago, the cops didn't have near the numbers of Joe Demko's dad's "mopes" to deal with. Sorta funny-odd: At the same time we create a societal structure that allows or causes more guys to be mopes, we've also begun worrying more about the civil rights of these mopes.
But we don't want to pay the cost of having enough law enforcement to control the mopes via truly constitutional means--and then we bitch at the cops when they use "creative enforcement".
Art
WilderBill
Member
OK, so you are 'detained' for something and the LEO holding says,
'give me a gun and I let you go".
You reply, truthfully, 'I don't have a gun, but I'll give you enough money to go buy your own'.
Did you just offer a bribe to a police officer?
Did he just ask for one ?
Both?
Neither?
'give me a gun and I let you go".
You reply, truthfully, 'I don't have a gun, but I'll give you enough money to go buy your own'.
Did you just offer a bribe to a police officer?
Did he just ask for one ?
Both?
Neither?
Joe Demko
Member
Much of the loud "denouncing" (word of the day here at THR) seems to center around the idea that the cops in question are shaking these people down for guns which the cops then keep for personal use. I won't say it never happened, in fact it probably did, but I also don't think that anybody can make the case that it was the rule rather than the exception.
Which do you think is the more likely situation:
1. The cops are shaking down random, innocent citizens for legal guns which they then keep for personal use.
2. The cops are nabbing petty criminals, some of which they probably know from priors, and are shaking them down for illicit firearms which are then turned in for storage and eventual disposal.
There is a tendency here when the cops and gun seizure turn up in the same story to automatically assume that the cops have the basest possible motivations and the person who had his gun confiscated is a poster child/martyr for RKBA, and launch straight into "denouncing mode."
Which do you think is the more likely situation:
1. The cops are shaking down random, innocent citizens for legal guns which they then keep for personal use.
2. The cops are nabbing petty criminals, some of which they probably know from priors, and are shaking them down for illicit firearms which are then turned in for storage and eventual disposal.
There is a tendency here when the cops and gun seizure turn up in the same story to automatically assume that the cops have the basest possible motivations and the person who had his gun confiscated is a poster child/martyr for RKBA, and launch straight into "denouncing mode."
joab
Member
How about this senario Joe
Kid hanging out on the corner with his buds.
One is holding some dope.
Cops offer all the same deal
Kid calls his security guard dad with his self bought duty revolver or poor single mom with only a Raven for protection.
Being concerned and trusting parents of a child who has never caused them any grief they pay the ransom.
Have the police disarmed a criminal and taken an "illegal" gun off the street.
Or have they disarmed a pretty young woman living in a bad area or put a father out of work
As long as we're speculating I'm gonna go with the humanitarian non- statist angle
I'm sorta in agreement with Coronach. But I put most of the blame on the higher ups that have either turned a blind eye or have taught the rookies that this is the correct way.
Kid hanging out on the corner with his buds.
One is holding some dope.
Cops offer all the same deal
Kid calls his security guard dad with his self bought duty revolver or poor single mom with only a Raven for protection.
Being concerned and trusting parents of a child who has never caused them any grief they pay the ransom.
Have the police disarmed a criminal and taken an "illegal" gun off the street.
Or have they disarmed a pretty young woman living in a bad area or put a father out of work
As long as we're speculating I'm gonna go with the humanitarian non- statist angle
I'm sorta in agreement with Coronach. But I put most of the blame on the higher ups that have either turned a blind eye or have taught the rookies that this is the correct way.
CGofMP
Member
Lets cut through the Bravo Sierra here...
Cops are not supposed to be the entire system wrapped in one. We have courts to meet out the punishments and confiscations. LEGALLY.
Lets ask ourselves, if this is such a great idea why do we not give everyone this power? Would it be legal for a private citizen to do such a thing? HELL NO.
Remember the constitution of the USA and our traditions do NOT give police that much more power than the average citizen. This is by design. Police are civilians for a reason - to keep the power of the commoner in commoner hands.
We are not a feudal system with the Blue Knights of our society given free reign to do what they please in some fiefdom where their primary purpose is to protect the barons, cardinals, and kings.
How far do you think you'd get in your chosen career at Burger King if you grabbed some guy on some punky little charge, took him into custody as a citizen, then took him to his home and let him know youd let him go if he just gave you a gun.
Lets say you really are truly good-hearted-citizen-soldier-wanabe-cop and you then take the gun to the PD, turn it in and let them know how you obtained it.
How many seconds do you think you would stand there at the front desk of the police station without having YOUR butt placed in custody?
Bottom line is that this is extortion, kidnapping, false imprisonment, and infringement of civil liberties under color of authority.
In my uninformed opinion, this insidious and illegal practice has probably given several officers a certain number of 'drop guns' to use next time they have to justify a bad shoot...
What absolute crapola...
Cops are not supposed to be the entire system wrapped in one. We have courts to meet out the punishments and confiscations. LEGALLY.
Lets ask ourselves, if this is such a great idea why do we not give everyone this power? Would it be legal for a private citizen to do such a thing? HELL NO.
Remember the constitution of the USA and our traditions do NOT give police that much more power than the average citizen. This is by design. Police are civilians for a reason - to keep the power of the commoner in commoner hands.
We are not a feudal system with the Blue Knights of our society given free reign to do what they please in some fiefdom where their primary purpose is to protect the barons, cardinals, and kings.
How far do you think you'd get in your chosen career at Burger King if you grabbed some guy on some punky little charge, took him into custody as a citizen, then took him to his home and let him know youd let him go if he just gave you a gun.
Lets say you really are truly good-hearted-citizen-soldier-wanabe-cop and you then take the gun to the PD, turn it in and let them know how you obtained it.
How many seconds do you think you would stand there at the front desk of the police station without having YOUR butt placed in custody?
Bottom line is that this is extortion, kidnapping, false imprisonment, and infringement of civil liberties under color of authority.
In my uninformed opinion, this insidious and illegal practice has probably given several officers a certain number of 'drop guns' to use next time they have to justify a bad shoot...
What absolute crapola...
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
CGofMP, I don't think folks here see this deal as the proper way to do things. I've tried to point out that it's not reasonless, police-state thinking on the part of the Baltimore cops.
A few years back there was some discussion of Baltimore's crime/murder problems on the MsMagazine website. Some Baltimorean anti-violence lady was trying to explain her deal on local anti-crime efforts. From some of the data at that time, Baltimore's murder rate was just really way-high. I haven't read of much improvement, there, regardless of "hug them" vs. "jail them" efforts.
With that in mind, then, I can see where some cops would try to work outside the usual--and unsuccessful--system.
Reading through this thread, I note that there's little offered in the way of removing the perceived need for "pro-active" efforts by the Baltimore cops. Hollering "violation of rights" is about like prescribing aspirin for the pain of a brain tumor.
Art
A few years back there was some discussion of Baltimore's crime/murder problems on the MsMagazine website. Some Baltimorean anti-violence lady was trying to explain her deal on local anti-crime efforts. From some of the data at that time, Baltimore's murder rate was just really way-high. I haven't read of much improvement, there, regardless of "hug them" vs. "jail them" efforts.
With that in mind, then, I can see where some cops would try to work outside the usual--and unsuccessful--system.
Reading through this thread, I note that there's little offered in the way of removing the perceived need for "pro-active" efforts by the Baltimore cops. Hollering "violation of rights" is about like prescribing aspirin for the pain of a brain tumor.
Art
longrifleman
Member
Hmm. We're supposed to solve the social, cultural, economic and probably janitorial problems of a socialist poopy pile like Baltimore right here on our own little thread? Sounds like a challenge to me.
I think we can come up with a few ideas but I think we are in for some thread drift if not outright hijack. Of course, I've done that before.
End the War on (some) Drugs for starters.
S_O_Laban
Member
The cops in Baltimore sound like saints.... compared to the last 100 years of the Chicago police racket. But it doesn't justify what is going on. Actually it was going on right here in a small midwestern town of a little over 700 people back in the 70s.....in that case most of the cops went to jail. This is certainly in principle nothing remotely new, but is should be delt with.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
longrifleman, I also doubt we'll "solve" such problems here, but the unending ranting and venting certainly doesn't accomplish a whole heckuva lot...
S_O_Laban, from what I've observed, overall, in policing efforts in the U.S., it's less of a police state, now, than it was in the past. On the local level, anyhow (if not in airports ).
Art
S_O_Laban, from what I've observed, overall, in policing efforts in the U.S., it's less of a police state, now, than it was in the past. On the local level, anyhow (if not in airports
).Art
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