FBI investigates taped LAPD beating

[Lucky]

but thinking what they deal with every day softens my opinion as long as it's a crook that takes the beating.

Cough cough, presumption of innocence, cough. Fair trial by jury of peers, cough, cruel or unusual punishments, cough cough

For the record, positional asphyxia is a serious issue in arresting people, though usually larger people, but kneeling on a person's neck is definitely cause for concern when said person complains about difficulty breathing. It's simply a fact that people suffering from positional asphyxia struggle, because they are having trouble breathing, and for that reason the struggle will continue until the subject stops (ie death). Usually this is more common in less trained arrests, store security and such, because peace officers are supposed to be the smartest and most highly trained and disciplined.

 

[Deanimator]

Half of me says I hope those power hungry pricks in LA get what they have coming to them, but thinking what they deal with every day softens my opinion as long as it's a crook that takes the beating. I'll never live there again, that's for sure... closest thing to a police state in the USA I'll testify to that.

Of course the problem with that is that if you allow the police to themselves break the law and violate the rights of criminals, how can you draw the line there? "Mission creep" INVARIABLY sets in. It goes from beating criminals, to beating people who MIGHT be criminals, to beating people that some individual officer just doesn't like. If you absolve those charged with enforcing the law from themselves obeying it, you render the law itself a nullity.

Somebody who commits a criminal assault is a criminal, and is a danger to the community, regardless of whether he wears a badge.

 

[Deavis]

I can certainly see how the fist to the face would be considered excessive. Most people are saying that it is because he was going for the 2nd cop's gun (which they stated in the report) but there I can't see that. The guy's arm angle doesn't seem right to be able to unholster the weapon and when his hand gets near it, it doesn't look like he is grabbing for it (the quality is poor though). Empty handed strike is kind of a misnomer, it makes it seem less painful because you don't have anything in your hand, i.e. trying to descalate it by associating it with open-palm strikes. A fist is a fist, it hurts.

I think that they ended up in a poor position and the 2nd cop is frustrated because he can't bring the suspect's arm under control. He is mad, lashes out, loses control, and then is forced to resume the same stalemate, not a good move. I don't understand the knee on the neck (you keep seeing that over and over), though, it seems like a knee applied to the head (pushing the ear forward) to put it flat on its side would help them leverage the guy onto his stomach and into a better position to cuff him. You go where you are looking and your neck is not strong enough to move under the weight of a man, I don't care what you neck press. From there you just wait him out. You can't stand up to fight if you can't get your head off the ground. Then again, what do I know?

 

[Lucky]

The only one is that video you have to feel sorry for is the unfortunate partner, who tried to do the job properly and was saddled with a reckless, dangerous colleague. Now they're going to be on paid vacation, and they might be the type of person who would rather be working.

The suspect will have a walk through court, and maybe make a few bucks.

And the punchinator, he didn't seem to care too much about his job anyway, so he won't mind a paid vacation, for however many months it takes.

 

[Coronach]

1. I have now seen 4 snippets of this video. It has been deliberately edited. In order to determine the propriety of the actions of the officer, one would need to see the whole thing. For instance, is the reason the one officer is "kneeling on his neck" because they finally managed to get him pinned, and if he shifts positions the guy will again get loose?

2. Screaming "I can't breathe!" is oxymoronic. If you can yell "I can't breathe", you can breathe. The human voice is created by air moving over the vocal chords. In order to make a sound, you need to inhale air into the lungs then exhale it over the vocal chords. If you actually cannot breathe, you cannot make a sound, at least not one able to be picked up by a camcorder several feet away. Every person I have ever maced has yelled the exact same thing. Heck, I probably yelled it myself when I was maced.

3. The position of the knee on the neck or shoulder looks bad, but it could easily be a result of the suspect being barely under control (see above). He clearly can breathe, despite his protestations to the contrary, and while it doubtless hurts, it is clear that the guy is still fighting. I have yet to see an actual resister get cuffed up all nice and neat like a training video. It is not clear how long they remain in that position before they finally get him rolled over, too. I can easily see a fight starting, reaching a stalemate for a moment with one cop on the guy's neck and the other holding the arms with one cuff applied, and then moving on to handcuffing as soon as they can do so (resting, gaining advantage over the arms, summoning aid on the radio, etc).

4. The guy is not handcuffed and is clearly fighting/pulling/resisting the officer holding the arms. It looks like his arms are just up, and the other cop's arms are just up, and they're just sitting there holding each other's hands. Unless this is the goofiest arrestee ever, that is not the case. Cadenas is pulling up with all of his might, and the cop is pulling down, and they're stalemated there. Note that his arm pops free at one point, one cuff applied, and the cop has to go grabbing for it. This is the "trying to stop the puncher" motion that has been mentioned.

5. As to the punches, empty hand strikes (punches) are perfectly appropriate, in general, against active resistance of the sort exhibited by the suspect. They serve two purposes, either striking muscle/nerve groups and causing a muscle to relax by sympathetic action, or as a distraction technique which then allows the officer to successfully complete some other move. Since the suspect is actively resisting and is not yet handcuffed, a punch to the face is a perfectly legitimate and trained technique for our department (I'm not LAPD, but I bet it is the same for them). The point of the punch would be to stun the suspect enough that the second officer could pull the uncuffed arm into a handcuffing position and get it hooked up. I can't stress this enough: while it looks ugly as hell, I have zero problems with the punches, given what I've seen on the video in conjunction with some very resonable assumptions about what happened immediately prior.

6. They should be shouting "quit resisting" and "you are under arrest" the whole time and giving loud verbal commands, but anyone who has been in a fight knows that you do that for the first 20 seconds and spend the rest of the time breathing and doing only necessary communication.

7. Whomever said that they should just be able to get him under control without all the "excessive force" has obviously never tried to cuff someone who does not want to be handcuffed. If you have a reasonably strong guy who wants to not be cuffed, there is pretty much no way that one guy is going to do it. Two will probably fight him to a stalemate and wait for him to tire (hey! Sounds a lot like this, dunnit?). It takes three or more to get a strong guy who really doesn't wanna go into the bracelets.

8. I'm not sure if it has been said or not, but usually someone will opine that they should just hold him there until the cavalry arrives. The problems with this are manifold: help can be far away; the suspect is still resisting and you might tire before he does; he has not been searched, and one loss of grip can give him access to a concealed gun or knife; one loss of grip can give him access to your gun or knife; you are on the ground, fully occupied with holding down a bad guy, and you're the center of an ever-growing crowd of his friends and relatives. Just holding him there is not an option unless it is the only thing you can do.

Mike

 

[Lucky]

For the record, an attorney is going to take this thing right apart in court. When I say "you" I'm not meaning you, just what a lawyer will bring up later.

You probably know the secondary reason why you're supposed to continually give loud clear verbal commands - BECAUSE SOMEONE MIGHT BE VIDEO TAPING YOU. And that also happens to be a secondary reason why you don't go 'ghetto on his ass'. You can try and justify it, but you know full well that was not professional behaviour. And again, one officer who was just trying to do his job is going to get sucked down by a schizo.

At the very least you say, "GIVE ME YOUR HAND AND I'LL GET OFF YOUR NECK." "GIVE ME YOUR HAND AND I'LL STOP HITTING YOU."

That's kind of a moot point, though, since the subject places his hand onto the violent officer's wrist, and the officer shakes the hand off to continue striking He was wasn't real interested in handcuffs

You can deny it all you like, but an officer who doesn't attempt to control the arm/wrist/hand is not attempting to apply restraints.

And you also ought to know that ignoring a subject complaining of positional asphyxia is borderline negligent.

And again, even with mediocre training I know that the first thing to do is roll the subject over, because if you get cuffs on the front it's going to be a bitch to try and switch them to the rear later. Still, if you can't manage that on a skinny guy who's not aggressive, if you pull up and in under his nose, since he's on his back, that ought to bring his hands up for you pretty quickly.

 

[Coronach]

You probably know the secondary reason why you're supposed to continually give loud clear verbal commands - BECAUSE SOMEONE MIGHT BE VIDEO TAPING YOU.

I agree that they should have been shouting commands. However, I'm assuming that they had been struggling for a while before the clip starts. They probably gassed out- after you've been wrestling for a short while, you don't do much yelling

And that also happens to be a secondary reason why you don't go 'ghetto on his ass'. You can try and justify it, but you know full well that was not professional behaviour. And again, one officer who was just trying to do his job is going to get sucked down by a schizo.

You can repeat that if you like, but I don't see that from the video. And I have no problem with the professionalism of the officers, at least not as evidenced in that short clip.

At the very least you say, "GIVE ME YOUR HAND AND I'LL GET OFF YOUR NECK." "GIVE ME YOUR HAND AND I'LL STOP HITTING YOU."

Agreed, their verbal commands, at this point, were lacking. However, "Officers Did Not Yell Right Things At Suspect" is a far cry from "Officers Beat Man For No Good Reason." I'll stand by my reasoning for why they were not shouting commands at this point, though, until we see the rest of the video.

You can deny it all you like, but an officer who doesn't attempt to control the arm/wrist/hand is not attempting to apply restraints.

OK. I'll deny it all I want, because we're trained to do this.

Let's take "clean", hypothetical scenario. Arrestee shoves arm under body. You try to pull arm out. You cannot get it. So, you adminster a couple of strikes to the body, prior to pulling on the arm again. Are you "not attempting to apply restrains" anymore? Or are you engaging in a distraction technique in order to get the suspect to relax his arm? I'd say the latter, and the same argument applies to Cardenas.

That's kind of a moot point, though, since the subject places his hand onto the violent officer's wrist, and the officer shakes the hand off to continue striking He was wasn't real interested in handcuffs

He was not really in a position to do anything with the hand, and his partner was already grabbing for it. The whole point of the strikes, from my POV, seemed to be to break the stalemate between his partner and Cardenas. I would want that arm to relax, not pop up, so my partner could grab it and twist it backwards- the puncher can't really do anything with it from his angle and was probably startled that it suddenly appeared there. The reason he kept punching was, I imagine, the same reason he ended up squatting over a suspect, laying on his back with one cuff applied; namely, things don't go according to plan in a fight. Also, that arm popping up would tell me "hey, maybe that worked, keep doing that" so my partner can finally get the arm snagged. Could he have grabbed it? Maybe. But saying "he wasn't interested" in the hand just because he failed to immediately recognize the opportunity and seize it is not really fair.

I also just retyped that about 4 times, trying to be clear, and I realized something else; we've had a lot of time to dwell on the video. He had about half a second to see the suspect's arm, recognize the "opportunity" (if in fact it was one), and decide what to do with it. Couldashouldawoulda, the battle cry of the Monday Morning QB.

And you also ought to know that ignoring a subject complaining of positional asphyxia is borderline negligent.

I'd agree with you, if they had control of the subject. If he was laying there, cuffed up, and complaining about inability to breathe, I would be inclined to move him to a seated position, or at the very least monitor him closely. As it is, they cannot even get cuffs on him, so they're in no position to worry about his comfort, and his constant shouting of "I can't breathe!" serves as a nice indicator that his airway is open and his lungs are working fine. The cop is obviously not on his throat (probably the side of his head and shoulder/neck area) and he is breathing well.

BTW, positional asphyxia would not be the appropriate term in this instance.

And again, even with mediocre training I know that the first thing to do is roll the subject over, because if you get cuffs on the front it's going to be a bitch to try and switch them to the rear later.

Right. I'm sure that was Plan A. However, by the time the video started, Plan A had gone to hell in a bucket and they were left with this. If you search for later clips, you'll see a 4 second shot where they do have him on his belly and are pulling his arms back. What you were witnessing in this clip is them working on getting him there. It's not exactly like you just go "Oh, duh! We should flip him over!" and *poof* it is accomplished. It takes work, a lot of groundfighting, and occasionaly some strikes. It looks a lot like this video, actually.

Still, if you can't manage that on a skinny guy who's not aggressive

Huh?

if you pull up and in under his nose, since he's on his back, that ought to bring his hands up for you pretty quickly.

That's a pressure point, actually. Infraorbital, I believe. The problems are:

1. He's been maced, so he is snotty and slippery. If you apply pressure, you'd probably slip off.
2. That puts your hand by his mouth, and no officer I know wants to be bitten. We're trained in the IO, but I've never seen it applied, for precisely that reason.
3. The whole point was not to get his hands to go up, but down.

Mike

 

[.38 Special]

I'll argue against the idea that shouting "I can't breathe" makes respiratory status a non-issue. Yes, shouting "I can't breathe" is an oxymoron in the most technical sense, but it is probably a bit much to ask that a person involved in such a struggle should clearly articulate his actual respiratory status.

IOW, "My breathing is currently compromised by several factors including but not limited to increased oxygen demands, the various chemicals present in increased levels in my bloodstream due to combat, and the partial airway constriction secondary to my awkward position and the weight being applied to the area of my trachea" is likely, in certain situations, to be expressed as "I can't breathe!"

"I can't breathe", no matter how it is expressed, is a sentiment that scares the daylights out of EMS. Cops may be different, but probably should not be.

 

[junyo]

Screaming "I can't breathe!" is oxymoronic. If you can yell "I can't breathe", you can breathe. The human voice is created by air moving over the vocal chords. In order to make a sound, you need to inhale air into the lungs then exhale it over the vocal chords. If you actually cannot breathe, you cannot make a sound, at least not one able to be picked up by a camcorder several feet away. Every person I have ever maced has yelled the exact same thing. Heck, I probably yelled it myself when I was maced.

Most sound is produced by exhaled air, and since the average human doesn't actually empty their lungs on every breath, you can continue to expell air, making words and sound, for a little while after you haven't been able to inhale, depending on their lung capacity. So it's very possible that someone could be screaming with the last bit of air in their lungs.

 

[TCB in TN]

Just interested in a trained LEO perspective

I am not LEO, never have been trained to cuff anyone. Did do a wee bit of boxing, wrestling, and more than my share of fighting so I can perfectly well understand both the rigors, and the unexpected twists and turns of any physical confrontation. What I don't understand, is that in the society we live in today, any professional LEO training would approve of striking a prone, (even if still struggling) suspect in the face. We live in an age of video, and we live in an age where society who may see that video, does not respect the need for violence in general. Even if you buy the idea that the officer with his knee on the suspects neck was "distracting" rather than meeting out a little "justice", how can any of you believe that it is an intelligent course of action for a LEO to undertake? I did see the entire Rodney King footage at one point and I felt that it was taken completely out of context. I hope that this footage turns out to be the same. I suspect that it might not be. But either way any LEO who thus strikes a suspect in the face, on video, is certainly risking his/her job, among other things.

 

[Lucky]

Coronarch I've never seen the nose one used irl either, but that's mostly because it was a hospital setting and help gets to you very quickly. But I stress that once you have a hold of a limb, I don't understand any reason why you'd let it go. The hardest part is when they go turtle, you can't get any points on the neck and they lie on their belly clasping their hands together. Then you have to try to get the hands out, and brother you don't let go if you get them.

Professionalism, appearances, practicality and effectiveness aside, if you're striking someone to get them to give you an arm, and then they extend an arm, it's illogical to knock the arm away and continue striking. It shows that priorities are not the mechanical restraints.

For the record, if you feel comfortable with strikes, why not do it right and use the palm or such? Sure, it doesn't look bad-ass like a movie-star, but for Pete's sake, the striking officer could have at least made a tiny effort to appear professional. Or maybe he was hoping for medical leave, punching the strongest bone in the body with a system containing 27 small bones, most of them fragile. ...But Jack Bauer...

And we've held people down for entire medical procedures, a couple hours at times, I've never seen someone too winded or forgetful to communicate, with their partners or the subject. You're just basically saying what you're doing, it's more difficult to walk and chew gum. "You see that?" "Yea" "Lean on it" "Got it" "PUT YOUR HAND OUT PUT YOUR HAND OUT" etc.

 

[Coronach]

"I can't breathe", no matter how it is expressed, is a sentiment that scares the daylights out of EMS. Cops may be different, but probably should not be.

Two reasons for this:

1. It is usually said as a result of being hit with OC and/or CS. It certainly feels like you cannot breathe. But you can.

2. It usually is not true (either because of #1, or otherwise).

Now, do cops monitor the respiratory status of their prisoners? The vast majority do, and all certainly should. Indeed, if I have someone claiming respiratory distress, they get a EMS squad, right away. However, I need to have them in custody first. No one is saying that cops should ignore the pleadings of their prisoners once they are secured.

However, there is a difference between that and having someone engaged in active resistance shouting "I can't breathe!" If that were true, they will not be actively resisting for long.

Most sound is produced by exhaled air, and since the average human doesn't actually empty their lungs on every breath, you can continue to expell air, making words and sound, for a little while after you haven't been able to inhale, depending on their lung capacity. So it's very possible that someone could be screaming with the last bit of air in their lungs.

Okaaaaaaaay. Sure. He could scream "I can't breathe!" once, maybe twice...and then he would be silent. That was not what was happening here, though.

I am not LEO, never have been trained to cuff anyone. Did do a wee bit of boxing, wrestling, and more than my share of fighting so I can perfectly well understand both the rigors, and the unexpected twists and turns of any physical confrontation. What I don't understand, is that in the society we live in today, any professional LEO training would approve of striking a prone, (even if still struggling) suspect in the face. We live in an age of video, and we live in an age where society who may see that video, does not respect the need for violence in general. Even if you buy the idea that the officer with his knee on the suspects neck was "distracting" rather than meeting out a little "justice", how can any of you believe that it is an intelligent course of action for a LEO to undertake? I did see the entire Rodney King footage at one point and I felt that it was taken completely out of context. I hope that this footage turns out to be the same. I suspect that it might not be. But either way any LEO who thus strikes a suspect in the face, on video, is certainly risking his/her job, among other things.

Because the first order of business is to survive the encounter with the least amount of injury to all involved, the second order of business is to do PR. Cardenas is, if the rumors circulating are correct, a known gang banger who is known to carry firearms. The officers are off their feet, on Cardenas' turf, busy dealing with him and surrounded by people who are, at the very least, hostile in attitude to them, if not action. Cardenas is fighting hard, and has not yet been searched, and has allegedly made at least one grab for an officer's gun. This could escalate very very quickly to a lethal-force scenario, and despite gunboard rumor we really do try to avoid those. If my choices are:

1. Continue grappling unsuccessfully with him and hope for the best

or

2. Try punching him in the face or another effective spot and see if that makes cuffing him easier

I'm most certainly going to experiment with #2. The whole point is to end the fight as rapidly as possible.

Note: I am making assumptions about Cardenas' character, the character of the neighborhood, the crime for which he was being investigated and the officers' prior knowledge of Cardenas. Change something in that constellation of facts, and the propriety of the use of force could change as well. I also have no idea what LAPD is trained to do as far as strikes go, this may very well be against LAPD policy. But here, we are trained to box, and with an empty hand the face is a perfectly viable target.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

Coronarch I've never seen the nose one used irl either, but that's mostly because it was a hospital setting and help gets to you very quickly. But I stress that once you have a hold of a limb, I don't understand any reason why you'd let it go.

No one let go of a limb. Cardenas grabbed at the striking officer's arm, but the striking officer never had ahold of the suspect's arm in turn. The second officer had ahold of the cuff the whole time, it looks like he lost mechanical advantage for a moment when Cardenas' arm came up.

The hardest part is when they go turtle, you can't get any points on the neck and they lie on their belly clasping their hands together. Then you have to try to get the hands out, and brother you don't let go if you get them.

In some ways that's less dangerous than this, in some ways it is more so. It all depends if there is a weapon down in there.

Professionalism, appearances, practicality and effectiveness aside, if you're striking someone to get them to give you an arm, and then they extend an arm, it's illogical to knock the arm away and continue striking. It shows that priorities are not the mechanical restraints.

Again, hardly fair. How many times have professional MMA fighters missed an opportunity? That's why they have coaches shouting at them from the side of the ring. I agree that he probably should have grabbed the arm (better groundfighters might say it is a bad idea, though. Anyone?), but that becomes a question of hindsight being 20/20. He was struck how many times? It happened how fast? If he just kept pummelling him, you might have a point. But in the midst of a fight, landing one or two more in lieu of grabbing an arm that you cannot do to much with from that position...eh.

BTW, we're talking a total of five punches on the video I saw. Five. Over the span of a few seconds, during the confusion of a fight. Assuming that striking him was within LAPD's policy and training given the level of resistance offered (I suspect it was), you're going to have a real hard time convincing anyone who has been in a fight that it was excessive. It's not like Cardenas stopped fighting between punch #1 and #5.

For the record, if you feel comfortable with strikes, why not do it right and use the palm or such? Sure, it doesn't look bad-ass like a movie-star, but for Pete's sake, the striking officer could have at least made a tiny effort to appear professional. Or maybe he was hoping for medical leave, punching the strongest bone in the body with a system containing 27 small bones, most of them fragile. ...But Jack Bauer...

You revert to training. He was probably not trained to do palm heel strikes, and there might be a very good reaosn for that. I honsetly have no idea how effective they would be, vis a vis a closed fist.

And we've held people down for entire medical procedures, a couple hours at times, I've never seen someone too winded or forgetful to communicate, with their partners or the subject. You're just basically saying what you're doing, it's more difficult to walk and chew gum. "You see that?" "Yea" "Lean on it" "Got it" "PUT YOUR HAND OUT PUT YOUR HAND OUT" etc.

I've seen officers so winded they could not speak. I've seen officers immediately roll off a suspect and throw up. I, personally, have been so busy concentrating on what the Bad Guy's left arm was doing that I had no idea that another officer had even showed up until he told me to let go. How exhausted and tunnel-visioned was this guy? I have no idea.

Mike

 

[Roccobro]

So far two seperate naysayers have brought up using pain compliance in leu of the ugly strikes. It would have "looked" so much nicer.

Anybody with a minute of street time know that once drugs or adrenaline are introduced, pain compliance from pressure points usually goes out window. A hoodlums first, tenth, or even twentieth adrenaline boost from an "exciting" encounter will always be greater than that of a cop with more than a year on (or 6 months for LAPD). Cops in that area have 1) almost nightly doses of that adrenaline dump, and 2) have learned to control or ignore it's now diminished pysiological response. DIversion strikes work. They are regularly used in some situation. They are affective.

Didn't see any tasers on their belts. That would have been a GREAT tool to use. They used what they had (they coulda used their flashlights or radios instead of fists )

You ever wonder why pay starts in the 70k+ region to work there? And there are many open positions? I'm not man enough and thoroughly enjoy my life too much to risk it doing what they do.

LAPD is militant because they have to. It is a warzone there. May they someday actually win the war on gangs and drugs "over there". Maybe they just need to win the hearts of the citizens with less striking blows to the face during the arrest of their son/brother/boyfriend/homey to end it all. Yeah right.

*end rant*

Justin

 

[Coronach]

Didn't see any tasers on their belts. That would have been a GREAT tool to use. They used what they had (they coulda used their flashlights or radios instead of fists

Concur and concur- well, not really on the latter, but I think that is actually your point.

Taser would have been splendid, but I don't know if they carry them and I don't know if they wold have had a chance to use it before things went rodeo (that pesky missing part of the video).

Hard impact weapon would not seem to be indicated, based on this snippet of video, and certainly not to the head. That is, I believe, what you're trying to say- fists seem bad, but at least they weren't braining him with a Maglight.

Remember, everyone: the question is not "was hitting him in the head the very best way to handle this?" The very best way to handle this is to get control of him from the start, put him on his belly with a perfect arm-bar, and cuff him up without incident. Well, it didn't happen that way. The real question is: "I just found myself kneeling on this guy's shoulders and neck, he's been maced, he's on his back, and we can't get him turned over because I'm kneeling on him, but if I get up we're probably going to lose control of him because my parter only has a cuff on one wrist and we just had to go WWF to get this far...so...what the HECK can I do now?"

Mike

 

[copper4262]

As a current LE officer I am always surprised at how people can jump all over the cops when anything like this video comes up. I should be used to it by now but im not. I have not seen the video yet so I can not give my opinion of what happened in that particular incident. What I can say is that before anyone does any cop-bashing they need to ask themselves how much they really know about what we do. Sadly there are many who feel free to condemn us when they have no idea what really happens in some of these incidents. Are there cops that step over the line? Yes - it happens and it makes me ashamed every time - But dont label the rest of us - Most of us are just doing what it takes to go home to our families at night.

Before condeming us keep in mind that we have a hard job and pretty much no-one in society backs us up. Before yelling at the cops for an incident like the one in question, ask yourself this: Have you ever been down in the dirt wrestling with someone 100lbs lighter then you that you could not control? How about someone 150lbs heavier then you?? have you ever felt blood tricking down your face and dirt grinding into your torn up knees and had the knowlege that you still didn't have the fighting suspect in cuffs? Ever wondered what was taking your back-up so long when you were out of breath and your arms were getting weak and you didn't think you could fight anymore? Its not a good feeling. Pressure points are great in a controlled setting or after a suspect if cuffed. On the street I have never had them work once. I gave up on them after about 2years on the job. Arm bars and locks and throws and chicken wings all work great on the training mat- but when the crap really gets flyin they only work about half the time. A drunk is easy to put in an arm lock - someone messed up on meth is near impossible. I can't condem an officer for doing what he has to do to survive a fight. What alot of people dont think about or realize is that we are dealing with people that have absolutely no morals at all. They could care less if I live or die - some would prefer I die. We don't know if they are armed and we have to assume they are. If you drop your guard and assume that someone is unarmed you run the risk of dying there in the street. I dont understand why that is so hard for so many people to understand. We can't always be nice to people. Sorry - we dont like mistrusting everyone all the time. Its just the way it has to be. In order to be effective we have to do certain, ugly, things. No - we dont like it. Its just how it is. Fighting and arresting people is just a part of the job that has to be done. Sometimes it gets ugly. I wonder what would have happened if the suspect had been the one taped beating on the cops?? Would the cops be making a huge issue out of it?? Or would they be told that was part of the job and to suck it up?? Guess what - that has happened. I have never had any written appologizies or any lawsuites filed on my behalf. No one from the department called to see how my wife was doing after we recieved death threats or I came home bandaged up. It doesn't really seem fair if you really think about. But it comes with the job and I guess you get used to it after awhile. Its just sad to see people complaining about cops when they dont know what its like. All the training in the world doesn't help when things get out of hand. Sometimes things just happen too fast. You just have to react and pray that you dont go home in a bag.

Anyway - That being said - The idea of a taser is a great one - The taser is about the only solution that works in some of these situations. But again - Mr. Murphy is always there. I have seen times when the wind blows one barb away - or a barb will hit a belt or some other odd thing will happen that makes them useless and your back to duking it out and praying that your backup gets there quick. I once went to pull my taser out on someone only to have the whole thing, holster and all come up off the belt - not a good feeling -

Thanks for letting me vent - Before we do too much cop bashing lets just ask ourselves - How would I have reacted if put in that situation??

 

[TCB in TN]

Don't get me wrong

I am a huge LEO supporter. Many of my best friends are LEO as well as having family who are LEO as well. I have stopped and helped LEO on several occasions, including a middle of the afternoon incident where I pulled a drunk off of an officer outside a local bar years ago. I admire those who are willing to actually serve and protect. I also am close enough to know that even locally here in small town USA, not every officer is really out there for the right reasons. How many guys on the squad you work on do you trust? How many scare you? I know from my own experience with local officers, and my conversation with my friends and family that they have concerns about some officers as well. In fact 1 guy I went to high school with was fired for stalking good looking young women. Had a couple of others fired for various illegal activities, and one disciplined but not fired after warning his theiving brother that officers were on their way to his house to search for some of the stuff he sold. Not saying that to knock LEO. Most are good people, just want to point out to all of you guys that we have just as many reasons to question LEO as do LEO to have to wonder about Joe Blow on the street.

The fact is that LEO are supposed to do it right! They are there to enforce the law, not to serve as Judge, Jury, and Exocutioner. Do some suspects deserve a good pop in the mouth? Sure they do, but the point is it is not a LEOs job to do it, unless there is no way to subdue him without it! I watched the video, and like many others I want to see the rest before I decide how I really feel about it, but from the clip we can see it certainly looks bad. For you LEOs out there who think that means you are being bashed, well I am sorry you feel that way. In all reality LEO are supposed to do it right, and when they don't, when they screw up, or worse when they choose to do it wrong they need to be held accoutable.

 

[Coronach]

Do some suspects deserve a good pop in the mouth? Sure they do, but the point is it is not a LEOs job to do it, unless there is no way to subdue him without it!

In general I agree with this, but I would not frame it as "no way to do it without it". There is always another way, the question is whether or not that way is safe, effective and likely to meet with success. As I implied before, the question is not "was this the best way to handle this", but rather "is this an acceptable way to handle this." I maintain that it is, assuming that everything is as it seems to be (assumptions about what happened up to that point, for instance).

I agree very firmly with you, however, that the cop should not be using strikes as a form of punishment/retribution. Based solely upon the clip, however, I do not think that is what he was doing. Only he knows the true motivation for the striking, of course, but I would say that he has a very plausible reason for doing it that does not include "he had it coming".

Mike

 

[roo_ster]

I'd like to see the rest of the video.

I am not a cop, but I have some small experience in the formal & not-so-formal martial arts. I recall planty of times thinking, "How in the heck did I get in THIS position?" Point being, ending up on top a guy with your leg across his colar bone & face is not outrageous.

Marquis of Queensbury Rules definitely do NOT apply.

 

[longeyes]

I've heard there are 850,000 gang members in this country, the number rising daily. Great to know the Feds have their priorities straight as usual. Would that the same righteous fervor prevailed down at the southern border.

 

[Headless]

Didn't look to me like the other officer was trying to hold his partner back, it looked like he was trying to pull the arm with the handcuff attached and they were simply entwined with his partners. Run from the 5-0, expect a beatdown.

 

[hqmhqm]

The alleged victim should have watched this first

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEEWcsWk4E0

 

[50 Freak]

Argue what you will about whether or not it was justifiable.

The truth of the matter is:

1) Public perception of the LAPD was bad. Now it's worse. Not good for the LAPD.

2) Tax payers will most likely have to pony up the large legal fees in fighting this in court, a huge settlement fee or large monetary award in favor of the guy.

Either way, it's a lose lose situation for the LAPD and the citizens of LA.

Honestly the only winner here is the guy that was arrested.

 

[crazed_ss]

heh.. what's funny is this kind of thing has become expected of the LAPD. It's like, "LAPD beat someone in the face.. so what's new?" .. That's just the culture of things there. Their police force is like a small country's army.

I hang in LA a lot and everyone knows that you do not play with the LAPD. Do exactly what they say, when they say, how they say.. lest you get your head split. As long as the LAPD is handing out equal oppurtunity beatdowns, Im not too bothered.