Correct charges for 9mm

[RugerSteve]

I just loaded some 9mm and was wanting to ask a question these are the particulars for my recipe.
9mm casings once fired and cleaned, 115gr RN Plated bullet, CCI primers, Hodgdon HP-38 powder. I was told by Hodgdon balistician seeing I won't find a plated bullet listed, to just go ahead and use recipe for LRN.
Min charge is 4.3 and Max charge is 4.8
I loaded 25 at 4.1.
Will that work? I have a Lee Pro 1000, with the pro powder feeder using the disks. My recipe calls for the VMD of .40 which should supply .43gr of powder. It gives around .41-.42. If I switch to the next higher VMD which is .43 which supposed to supply
Right around .48gr of powder, and actually supplies roughly around .45.
Long story short, are the .41 loads that I did too low, or will they be okay? Should I load them at a higher grain? I wanted to start out on the low side first.

 

[rcmodel]

Min charge means Exactly that.
The MINIMUM charge you should start with!

With no reloading experiance?
Do Not reduce a Min charge further, as it is already reduced to the minimum recommended charge.

Your loads are probably safe to shoot, but about 100% sure to be too weak to operate the action.

 

[dave333]

What does the charge with the .40 disk weigh on your scale? I load on a Pro 1000 with the auto disks and what you are suppose to get and what you actually get when you weigh it on a scale are often different, sometimes by a lot. I would definately start with 4.3 grains or as close to it as you can get and go from there. Also, I personally never load more than 10 test rounds on something new, just in case it doesn't work right, less bullets to pull or single shots to get through.

 

[Gadawg88]

I believe you have some misplaced decimals in your post. If it were me, I would have started with the 4.5gn. Your 4.1gn load is 0.2gn below minimum for a 115gn lead bullet. Platted bullets are often/usually loaded at mid-range for jacketed bullets. I don't think your load will be dangerous, but you may find it doesn't properly cycle your gun. I wouldn't waste the components by firing them. If your curious, keep two or three to test and break the others down and start over.

 

[loose noose]

Ruger Steve, If the minimum load is 4.3, I don't understand why you would go under to 4.1. I seriously doubt that they will eject properly as there wouldn't be enough blow back. Further if you go too low you also have the possibility of a cartridge exploding as the primer would ignite all the powder at one time, in other words the powder would lay level in the case and the flash of the primer could quite possibly ignite all the powder instead of progressively igniting it.

I'm not sure what reloading manual you are using, but all of the manuals I own have recipes using the fmj 115 grn bullets.

 

[noylj]

We will assume you are loading 9x19, and not one of the other plethora of 9mm cartridges out there.
How would we know if the round will cycle in your gun? Your gun may be stiff or loose. The recoil spring could be brand new or worn.
I can tell you that from various manuals, I show starting loads from 2.9gn to 4.5gn for 115gn L-RN bullets and max loads from 4.2-5.0gn, so you are well above some starting loads and right at one manual's MAX load. I like to check several sources first and start with the lowest starting load--overly cautious, some say, but I remember when I just took a starting load from ONE manual and used it back around 1974.
1) The Auto-Disk charges Lee lists are really, as far as I can tell, for the powder in its most compacted form and you will almost always find that the real charges are lighter. Record what you get so you'll know. You can even take the charge weight and divide by the cavity CC and get a gn/CC constant to estimate the charge weight from all the other cavities for that lot of powder.
2) Never load a lot of rounds without verifying they feed, chamber, and cycle in your gun, because you may have to break them down if they don't. Thus, you should load 10-20 at the start.
3) 0.40CC should supply 4.3gn of powder per Lee (not .43gn--you need to be sure to use the right values). You say it gives about 4.1-4.2gn? Well, my lots of 231/HP38 give me 4.2gn of 231/HP38 with the 0.40CC cavity (so, you match me quite well) and 4.5gn of 231/HP38 with the 0.43CC cavity (so, you match me quite well) and 4.7gn of 231/HP38 with the 0.46CC cavity--so you can load from starting to max/almost max. Seems like an excellent situation to me.
PS: you are starting out on the low side first, just like you should ALWAYS start out--at the starting load.

PPS: THERE IS NO MINIMUM LOAD. THERE IS ONE MANUAL'S STARTING LOAD, WHICH IS MOST OFTEN NO MORE THAN A 10-12% REDUCTION FROM MAX.

 

[rcmodel]

Just for the record.

A reduced powder charge will not 'just explode'.

There is not enough energy in that light a load to explode anything.

rc

 

[loose noose]

RC, on the contrary, had an Officer with a brand new Glock blow up on the range shooting, factory reloaded ammo during a qualification shoot. What Glock determined had happened was the load in the .40S&W cartridge had been under loaded causing the powder to lay level just under the primer, when fired all the powder ignited at one time exploding the cartridge and bulging the slide. The other cartridges were also checked, and a few others were noted to be very low on powder also. Needless to say the ammo company, which is a nationally known company, replaced the officers firearm.

I talked to the Glock field rep and the way he explained it, it made sense to me. Needless to say after that incident, the range was cleared and the qualification postponed until a future date. Since that time all qualifications are shot with brand name factory ammo.

 

[rcmodel]

I don't buy it.

light loads don't just explode because of the position of the powder.

Guns explode because of double charges, bore obstructions caused by squibs, and other mistakes & foolishness.

 

[nevadabob]

I load Berry's 115 grn plated 9's with the Lee Pro Auto Disk. With Win 231, the #43 hole drops 4.5 grns & the #46 hole dispenses 4.8 grns. My COL is 1.135.

 

[loose noose]

rc, didn't make sense to me either, however, who am I to argue. I do know that the ammo company replaced the weapon, and the way the Glock rep explained it to me it made perfect sense.

 

[RugerSteve]

My .40 disk consistently gives 4.1gr The .43. Disk if I remember gives about 4.5gr.
With this variation do you think it a good idea to go 4.5gr? Maybe I should buy the metering block, for the next time. So, is the majority opinion, disassemble the 25 and go to the next higher disk? I want to be safe, and that is why I did what I did. I've read that the powder companies throw in a 1-2+\- factor.

 

[RugerSteve]

Nevadabob, my COL is 1.100
I came to this conclusion because I was talking to one of the Ballisitians at Hodgdon, and he told me if I am going with a plated bullet to go with the recipe for lead round nose bullet because a plated bullet is just an electroplated bullet and not as thick as a FMJ. He said if there is a recipe for LRN, go with that, if not go with a recipe for the FMJ. That is why my COL is different than yours.

 

[RustyFN]

Nevadabob, my COL is 1.100
I came to this conclusion because I was talking to one of the Ballisitians at Hodgdon, and he told me if I am going with a plated bullet to go with the recipe for lead round nose bullet because a plated bullet is just an electroplated bullet and not as thick as a FMJ. He said if there is a recipe for LRN, go with that, if not go with a recipe for the FMJ. That is why my COL is different than yours.

Just an FYI. This is from Berry's, one of the larger plated bullet manufactures. It is posted on their web site.

Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

 

[LiveLife]

RugerSteve, I also use Lee Pro 1000 with Pro Auto Disk powder measure.

For me, .43 hole will drop around 4.5 gr of W231/HP-38 and .46 hole will drop around 4.8 gr.

With 115 gr plated RN, the 4.5 gr charge of W231/HP-38 will likely cycle the slide of full size 9mm pistols like Glock 17 but may not reliably cycle the slide of compact/subcompact pistols like G19/G26, especially with new recoil spring assembly.

I use 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 as it will reliably cycle all pistols and produce slightly accurate shot groups than 4.5 gr loads - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7217193#post7217193

 

[RugerSteve]

This will be used in a Glock 26, and a Ruger SR9c. Question, if data does not show for Hodgdon HP-38 in a recipe, use 231? Also looking at "The Complete Reloading Manual For The 9mm Luger" , for Hodgdon Powder, it shows a 115gr FMJ, but it only shows WSF powder, or it shows a 115gr LRN. It does not show a plated, so if I am using HP-38 how can I use data for something with WSF

 

[noylj]

I will ONLY believe in "detonation" when a lab can reproduce it at any time of day or night and when they can explain how the total energy in the powder could all be released at once simply by powder position.
At one time, the story was that there was powder by the bullet and powder by the case head and both were ignited at once and the pressure waves met and added together and made a boom. What no one could explain to me was how two pressure waves, that can't be more than 1/2 the pressure of the wave of the powder all together, could add up to produce a pressure high enough to blow up a gun, particularly with the small amount of powder (and, therefore, energy) available.
There is NO way after the fact to show that a light load did the damage and NOT an over charge. Just think--an over charge will ALWAYS cause higher pressure. They are saying that a lighter charge, that only might somehow, cause high pressure was the after-the-fact cause of what all inspections and tests would indicate is more easily explained by an over-charge.
Really, hand-waving without proof to back it up forensically, is less than worthless and is actually in the realm of lying to save someone's ass.

 

[Vol46]

I use 4.3 - 4.4 grains of W 231/HP38 with 115 gr. Berry's plated RN in a full size and a compact 9mm. It is a very pleasant and accurate load and cycles both guns fine. 4.3 grains is the minimum load listed in the Hodgdon manual for that powder & 115gr. LRN. W231 and HP 38 are the same powder.
If you are just a little on the light side, the most likely sign will be your gun not cycling reliably, perhaps not completely ejecting the fired case, or not picking up a new round from the mag.
If you are significantly low, you could get a squib, where the bullet does not exit the barrel. The big danger there is if you don't notice, and fire another round with the previous bullet obstructing the barrel, you could damage your gun or cause injury.
I have never seen or experienced it, but there are references in reloading literature to detonation caused ( very rarely) by excessively low charges, usually with fast powders in large cases. The theory is that the low density charge & resulting large surface area of exposed powder causes a detonation something like a grain elevator explosion. I have no clue whether that is possible or not.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

so if I am using HP-38 how can I use data for something with WSF

NO NO NO, you can not ever use load data from one powder with a different powder!!!

HP-38 and W231 are exactly the same powders and that was confirmed by Hodgdon and St. Marks' Powder company. You can interchange the load data from each as long as it's current load data. If you look at the Hodgdon load data site you will see the load data is exactly the same for each.

One thin I would like to know, if the experts at Hodgdon told you to use load data for the LRN bullet why did you use a lower charge than recommended on the site? There is a good reason why load data has a starting charge, it's where you should start.

You will probably be fine with the cartridges you made so you can probably shoot them safely but from now on use the data as written... (especially since you spoke to the ballistics expert at Hodgdon)

Like said above, with plated bullets you can use lead bullet data or starting to middle load data for jacketed bullets.

 

[RugerSteve]

BDS &Voi46,
With these recipes of yours what is your OAL.? Mine is 1.100 . I am using 115gr plated from
Rocky Mountain Reloaders.

 

[RugerSteve]

ArchAngelCD, I took into consideration that I heard powder companies supposedly say there is a +- factor of .1-.2 at least I heard that somewhere. And that is what the powder disk dropped for that VMD

 

[ArchAngelCD]

ArchAngelCD, I took into consideration that I heard powder companies supposedly say there is a +- factor of .1-.2 at least I heard that somewhere. And that is what the powder disk dropped for that VMD

I would have at least tried the next size hole and see what the charge weighed. I use a Lee turret press and their Pro Auto-Disk so I know what you are saying...

 

[RugerSteve]

I used the VMD .40 and ended up with 4.1gr, the next size up .43 dropped 4.5-4.6gr of powder. So I guess I will take these apart a fill with. 4.5

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I used the VMD .40 and ended up with 4.1gr, the next size up .43 dropped 4.5-4.6gr of powder. So I guess I will take these apart a fill with. 4.5

You don't have to take them apart. If they cycle the slide they will be fine for this time.

 

[Potatohead]

I heard that somewhere

Be careful. You may want to get a few more manuals and check them out pretty good. Im a new guy too, and they sure help.

I'm pretty sure Lee's manual has some plated recipes also, if that is what your looking for (sorry I just glanced over thread).