New to reloading and confused about powder measures

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Dr_B

member
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
822
Location
Pacific Northwest, east of Washington but west of
I just got a Lee Breechlock Challenger press with dies for reloading 9mm. Popping out the old primers, cleaning the pockets, and repriming were easy enough. Then I went out to get powder and bullets.

I bought some Hodgdon's Titegroup and a box of Hornady 115gr 9mm XTP's. Got home and noticed the recipe for 115gr 9mm on my Lee chart doesn't mention the Titegroup powder with this particular Hornady bullet. Instead it indicates some other powder.

The Titegroup bottle itself says 4.8gr for 9mm 115gr Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints. Doesn't mention Hornady bullets.

So, am I correct in thinking I can't use this particular powder with the XTP bullets? I am hesitant to load the cases with the powder charge listed beside 9mm 115gr JHP's on the Lee chart.

I know there are different charges for different bullet weights and calibers, but does each bullet brand have to have a particular charge from a particular powder?

Not sure what to do to move ahead with reloading. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Did you try the Hodgdon.com website for their Reloading data center? I am positive there is a 115gr hollow point listed for use with Titegroup.

It often makes life simpler if you do the reference work first and then buy components for which you have data.
 
Speer recommends a starting load of 4.1grs. and a max. of 4.5 grs. with the 115 gr bullets in Speer Reloading Manual 14. However this is a powder that I have but haven't yet used before neither do I load for 9mm. You'll also notice the Hodgdon states they are Max. loads listed on the can and should be reduced by 10% to start.
 
You'll be ok with the TiteGroup in the 9mm with the Hornady XTP.
I wouldn't have recommended you use TiteGroup with the 9mm, but since you already have it, try it/use it.

I suggest you start at about 4.3gr and work upward to a max of 4.8gr. The XTP isn't as sensative to seating depth and charge level's as the plated Gold Dot bullet. I use it in my match ammo for duplicating the factory loads I use in NRA/PPC semi-auto "Distinguished" matchs, and use the reloads in non-regional/registered matches.

I've used Bullseye and Win231/HP38 as well as many other powders with the Hornady XTP and haven't seen any issues with it.

I however was given several pounds of TiteGroup when it came out but couldn't warm up to it. It simply didn't do anything better than Bullseye or #231, and often came up short in my testing.

For the 9mm I would have recommended either Win231, Winchester SuperField (WSF), or Hodgdon's "LongShot". Presently I use Win231, although if I were to use the 9mm for self-defense I'd use "LongShot" due to higher velocities.

All the Hodgdon data I have lists the Gold Dot bullet in their data. I tend to believe the powder manufacturers data more than I do a competitor even though they too, make the bullet. However, observe what equipment they use in testing. It often doesn't bear any resemblence to your equipment therefore lacks direct relevance.
Reloading is as much an "Art" as a "Science". Find what works for YOU in YOUR gun...

With handguns I often find that 15% under max will often give a superior load regarding accuracy so long as it retains sufficent energy to operate the action of the firearm. Such is the case with the .40S&W and Winchester Super Field powder with the 155gr and 180gr bullets.... YMMV.
 
Last edited:
Good Doctor -

As per the comments above, you have truly bought the tires before picking out the car. This is not a safe or sound practice. Much better that you get a reliable reloading manual, such as the Lyman #49, and/or visit the Hodgdon web site. You only want to use published data.

IMHO your choices have made it more difficult to get started safely. TiteGroup is a very "fast" powder that does not take kindly to mistakes in measuring. Lots of people use it, but they have been reloading for years and use accurate, high-end measuring equipment.

In some handguns the Hornady XTP can be a bear the first time out. It's a wonderful bullet, but the sharp shoulder can give some chambers fits in getting a good fit. These are generally the eastern European guns like CZ and Springfield XD series.

If you were my patient, then I would have advised a slower, more general use powder, such as Winchester 231 (aka Hodgdon HP-38). It's not quiet as "edgy" and somewhat more tolerant of beginner errors. I would have also recommended using a Round Nose bullet from any of 15 bullet makers. These are good general use bullets at about 1/2 the price, with no OAL issues.

But if you go slow and ask lots of questions you'll be OK. It's that "go slow" part that most beginners want to pass up.


If you get stuck, then take two nurses and call me in the morning !! :D
 
There is also the option of just putting the Titegroup and XTPs away for now and buying a pound of Win 231/HP-38 and some plated or FMJ bullets to learn on?

Some reloaders end up with a variety of powders/bullets in their inventory that through testing they have found to work in specific situations better (their standard) than others. I've stayed with Win 231/HP-38 for all my reloading, including 9mm. I am primarily reloading for indoor range plinking.
 
I've used TG with 115 jacketed and plated bullets. Suggest the good doctor start at 4.0 grains with a min. COL of 1.075" per the Hornady manual. That should start you out at about 1000 to 1050 fps depending on your barrel length. Work up from there, but I'd put the brakes on at 4.5 grains.

The volume of TG in the 9mm case is very low, so it is imperative that you verify the charge prior to setting bullets. Since you're using a single stage press, make triple sure of your charges on the loading block prior to the start of seating. Don't know what you're using to dispence and weigh the charges, but at these smaller amounts of TG, dispencers may show variation of greater than +/- 0.1 grain between throws. Check and double check often.
 
I use Titegroup with XTPs all the time in both 9mm and .357 Mag.

It is very clean burning, and I typically load 124 gr bullets in the 9mm over 4.2 or 4.3 grains for target practice. It is not the maximum load, but will reliably cycle any of my 9mm pistols.

Follow GooseGestapo's recommendations above. IMO, he is right in what he is suggesting.
 
I appreciate all the advice here.

I had intended to load 115gr FMJ's, but came out of the store with a box of XTP's, because I didn't know what I was buying. I also figured any 115gr 9mm could be loaded with any powder that had a recipe for that bullet weight and caliber. Not so, as I understand now.

So I think the best thing to do for now is put the XTP's on the shelf and find some FMJ's. The store I went to yesterday only had that particular 9mm bullet in stock. There is another one in town I can try.

I'll hang on to the powder and XTP's for later when I know more about what I'm doing. I'm not going to load powder and seat bullets before I am absolutely sure I'm doing it correctly.

By the way, I'm using the Lee Perfect Powder Measure. Right now, I have it set to release .36cc of powder, which should be 4.3 grains. That's actually another issue. I am not 100% sure it is dispensing the right amount. Using the rod and thimble on the powder chamber seems rather inexact.

Also thinking of getting together with someone local who reloads 9mm so I can see how it should work.
 
Dr. B,

I would assume that you have a reliable scale to check the charge weight? I went through a couple of electronic ones, but found that they were not as accurate as a balance beam scale. I use the Dillon one, but any of the major manufacturers' scales are good.

I have a buddy, my reloading mentor, who uses the Lee Perfect Powder Measure. He swears by it, but I have never been convinced. I use the Hornady LnL that came with my LNL AP, but again, most of the major manufacturers' powder throwers are just fine. Reloading equipment is mainly a question of personal taste and budget, so long as you have the basics covered.

I think getting a manual and a local "mentor" is a terrific idea.
 
Ah, yes, the Internet Recipe Hunt.

First, you do not mention a powder scale. You NEED a powder scale. There are cheap digitals that will do ok if you get a check weight so you can be sure they are holding calibration. I might load with only a fixed cavity measure, their charts are very conservative and the tolerances all minus, no plus. But screwing a plug down to a setting and expecting it to deliver what the chart says is not reasonable to me.

Second, the powder and bullet companies can't affordably test every possible combination of components to assure you of a tested recipe for what your dealer might have in stock.
That is why the manuals have the boring fine print about "starting loads" and "working up."

I think you can use the load given for a generic or other brand 115 gr jacketed bullet AT THE STARTING LOAD LEVEL, which is 90% of the maximum from most sources - a 10% reduction.
I would. I do.

A 15% reduction from the maximum per GooseG would certainly be cautious but it might not cycle your action. For example a 1911 is very flexible and functional with very light loads, but a Sig Sauer P225 I was going to show a novice would not operate with a powder charge reduction of more than 12%.
 
Wow. You guys are making this way to hard & scaring the OP for no reason. There is published data for tight group so it must work OK. There is even testimony on this thread of it working. The only reason I would suggest not using the XTP is that they cost more. its like learning to drive in a Benz or a Chevy your still going to learn ether way.

The XTP has a sharper nose so it might seat shallower because there is more room to go deeper in the barrel or it my have to be seated deeper because it gets stuck on the ramp. I have to seat them deeper for my guns.

The 9mm is a extremely easy cartridge to load safely. Most guns can safely handle +P+ so if max for a standard cartridge is 4.8(which is what I show for the gold dot) even with the XTP it is still going to be way under what the chamber can handle. I would probably start around 4.0-4.2gr. & work up until action rechambered constantly. It is in the same burn rate as Bullseye & that has been a favored powder for 9mm forever.
 
It is important to use the correct powder and charge with the selected bullet weight. Different brands of bullets of the same type will all have data close enough to make no difference unless you are loading at the maximum pressure level.

If you are using the Lee supplied dipper then use the powders recommended for the bullet weights they list. If you have a powder scale you can weigh each charge or better yet use the scale to set an adjustable powder measure to throw a charge as listed in published data from various sources for the particular powder and bullet weight you have selected. Usually the bullet manufacturer will provide the optimum loads for their bullets. You can find data on line from the powder companies at http://hodgdon.com/ and http://www.alliantpowder.com/.

Propper practice when hand loading is to start at a safe reduced load from the maximum of 10% for most powders OR the published start load and work up the load using increasing amount of powder but NEVER EXCEEDING THE MAXIMUM LOAD published. The 10% reduction safely accommodates for differences in bullet types, powder,case, and primer variation. Usually somewhere in between the start load and the maximum you will find your best accuracy. Watch for pressure signs.
 
Last edited:
I believe you need to acquire a scale, even the Lee scale will weigh accurately but because of its light weight its a bear to use.

Not trying to open a can of worms but mayhap a decent digital scale would be up your alley.

Now then here it comes, everyone duck.
 
"I had intended to load 115gr FMJ's, but came out of the store with a box of XTP's, because I didn't know what I was buying"

The powder you purchased CAN of course be used quite safely by a reloader with some experience, but it does not have a large 'margin of error.' And newcomers need every safety advantage they can get as they load and learn. This includes strongly suggesting they do their homework before making any component purchases. Read, read and then read some more. It costs little and and an educated consumer makes the best customer.

I used the Perfect Powder measure for quite a while before I got my turret and it provides very consistent powder throws AFTER the setting has been confirmed by a scale - cheapo or expensive.
 
As several people here mentioned, this has been sort of a cart-before-the-horse problem driven by lack of knowledge. The end result of all this is I am:

1. Putting the Titegroup and XTP's on the shelf for now.

2. Reading the Lyman Reloading Handbook (48th Ed.). Particularly pages 1-126.

3. Learning to use my Lee scale and powder measure properly, and reading all the materials that came with the press a second time.

4. Getting together with a friend who knows how to reload before I attempt any more myself.

Thanks for the advice!
 
Good choice to do some reading with a good manual before starting to load. Just my opinion that Titegroup is safe to start with as long as you pay attention, but then you need to do that with any powder. I started loading with 9mm and TG. I settled in at 4.2 grains. Start at the beginning and work the load up for your gun.
 
I've been mixing and matching jacketed bullets with powder's for several decades, and it's perfectly safe so long as you are using safe work up methods, as should be the case.
For the 115 gr. XTP's which I laod a lot of those, has a powder charge from 4.5 gr. - 4.8 gr..
If I were you I would load those jacketed bullets with a slower burning powder, it takes some of the temparmental issues of having to cope with powder measurement variations of 1/10 gr. from being significant. Titegroup only has about a 3/10 th range with the 9mm, not much spread to work with. Some of the slow burning powder have as much as 4.0 grs. of range to the listed charge options. These poders are also usually the better performing powders for jacketed bullets delivering best accuracy and velocity in most of the application.
I suggest you try Power Pistol, SR4756, HS6, AA#7, and one of my personal favorites is Longshot. Just take a moment to look at your options. With something that typically uses so little powder like the 9mm you can use these slower burning powders without too much economical impact. There are 7,000 grains in a pound. A powder charge of 6.5 grains will load 1076 rounds, just an example that kind of fits the 9mm with a slow burning powder and 115 gr. bullet.
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of reloading.:D
One thing I have learned over time is to learn a system and repeat it religiously. I am right handed and start with my empty primed brass at my left in a loading block primer up. This assures me that they are empty and the primers are installed correctly. Then I charge the casing and put it in another loading block to my right. After the loading block is full I inspect the whole batch with a bright light to make sure the propellant level is the same in all casings. Then I will seat bullets in all of them or set that full block aside to charge another batch. I feel this system is the safest way to use a single stage setup. If interrupted finish handling that particular casing or put it back into the first block primer up before you stop. YMMV
 
A Good reloading handbook like : lyman 3rd edition "Pistol+Revolver handbook " is a very good place for info / charts on power + bullet combinations.....Cost $20. well worth the money.....
 
Welcome Doc_B!

Sounds like your well on your way to making some of the best 9mm ammo you have ever shot. :)

If you don't have check weights and a good caliper, get them.
 
The difference in data is primarily regarding OAL and not so much as to powder application. Some exceptions apply, and more commonly with Gold Dots, because they are not a typical jacketed bullet. One of the biggest factors is to remain consistent in using the same weight jacketed bullet. In other words if there is no existing data for a 90 gr. JHP then that powder is not suited for that bullet weight.
Don't interchange lead and jacketed data either. Lead is a different world and uses different data.
3.7 grs. - 4.8 grs. of Titegroup is a working range for the 115 gr. jacketed bullet.
115 gr. XTP OAL is not less than 1.075"
 
I had intended to load 115gr FMJ's, but came out of the store with a box of XTP's, because I didn't know what I was buying. I also figured any 115gr 9mm could be loaded with any powder that had a recipe for that bullet weight and caliber. Not so, as I understand now.
Click to expand...

You are correct. As a GENERAL rule of reloading, substitutions can be made as long as the bullets are of the same construction and weight. For example, you can swap 124gr Zero FMJ bullets in a recipe that calls for 124gr Montana Gold FMJ. But that's a general rule and those (as we all know) are generally meant to be broken. So you may not need a full reset back to the "starting load", but realizing they will not behave exactly alike, you should reduce your load by several 1/10ths and work your way back up.

After a year or more, when you can accurately predict how your gun and reloading machine will react to subtle load changes, THEN you'll be free to draw your own conclusions.



Moved into .38 specials as well, and soon .45 ACP.
Click to expand...

I wish we'd have known. 38 Spcl and 45 are much easier rounds to reload and have a much wider load range making things much safer for the novice. IMHO those may have been a better place for you to start. But that's all water under the bridge now.



Good to hear you're having positive results and are enjoying yourself. That's the most important thing.
 
Last edited:
"The Titegroup bottle itself says 4.8gr for 9mm 115gr Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints. Doesn't mention Hornady bullets."

It doesn't need to, use the same data with your Hornady bullets. IF we couldn't do that, there are a LOT of bullets we couldn't load for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

JonB
  • Locked
115gr Hornady HAP 9mm
Replies
3
Views
2K
abl760
A
W
  • Locked
Too much powder? Case pictures
Replies
22
Views
2K
gamestalker
G
S
  • Locked
Handloading for EMP
Replies
15
Views
2K
RussellC
R
alrod013
  • Locked
Chance to get powder
Replies
13
Views
880
kcofohio
kcofohio
A
  • Locked
Need a titegroup load for 9mm 115gr FMJ
Replies
6
Views
12K
agony
A
Back
Top