I'm getting ready to try some Titegroup in 9mm pushing some RMR Heavy Match Winners. These shoot very well pushed by HS-6 in the 780 fps range (book value). The minimum velocity given for them using Titegroup is 840 or so. Is there a correlation between velocity and accuracy, and if so, does that mean I have no chance to replicate the accuracy using Titegroup? I don't want to reduce the load below the minimums. I'm using Hodgdens data for a 147 grain Hornady XTP. The RMR HMW are slightly shorter but are otherwise very similar in shape.
Correlation Between Velocity and Accuracy in 9mm
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Charlie98
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TiteGroup is much faster than HS-6, and I suspect the heavier charge is to get those bullets out the end of the barrel without sticking one. As far as accuracy, just give it a go... the pistol will tell you if it likes it or not.
ETA: Also, remember, the XTP is a defensive bullet... it needs a certain amount of velocity for it to expand properly.
ETA: Also, remember, the XTP is a defensive bullet... it needs a certain amount of velocity for it to expand properly.
I'm just using the XTP data to push the Match Winners. They're conical flat points, so won't expand anyway. The charges are about a grain different. 4.3 grains of HS-6 and 3.3 or so grains of Titegroup. Titegroup would be nice if I can match the accuracy. It uses about 25% less per round and it's cheaper by the pound by about 20%. I know many don't like it. It is dirty when shooting my HBWC loads in my Blackhawk. However, if I can save 30% on powder, some sacrifices will have to be made.
Charlie98
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No, what I'm saying is... the minimum charge Hodgdon lists is very likely because they had a velocity threshold to achieve for that bullet (the XTP.)
Charlie98
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Plugging the numbers into QuickLoad, and using the Berrys T/RN 147grn plated bullet, 2.8grn TiteGroup will prolly give you what you are looking for. I would start at the listed 3.2grn, however, and reduce to see what you can find.
lordpaxman
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If it’s any help, one of my match loads for the RMR 147 MW is 3.5 gr TG at 1.150”, it makes around 132PF, about 895 fps. That’s out of a P320 Legion.
By accuracy, do you mean group size, or POA=POI? If it’s group size, or precision, I was just running tests on another load using N320, which requires about 3.6 Gr of N320 to be a comfortable PF, but I had some 3.7 gr N320 loaded as well and the group size shrunk somewhat, benchrest at 20 yards and only a sample of 6.
It got me wondering if pushing them a bit faster might help stabilize them more, or, perhaps I’m hitting a node.
At any rate, mind the COL with Titegroup, it can get squirrely fast.
By accuracy, do you mean group size, or POA=POI? If it’s group size, or precision, I was just running tests on another load using N320, which requires about 3.6 Gr of N320 to be a comfortable PF, but I had some 3.7 gr N320 loaded as well and the group size shrunk somewhat, benchrest at 20 yards and only a sample of 6.
It got me wondering if pushing them a bit faster might help stabilize them more, or, perhaps I’m hitting a node.
At any rate, mind the COL with Titegroup, it can get squirrely fast.
I dont think velocity and accuracy run hand in hand, but ES/SD and accuracy certainly do in pistol.
The XTP is really close to the RMR 147s, and I would swap the data with no issues. Ive tested 147 XTPs all the way to 3.8gr of TG and noticed heavier recoil as I increased powder charge but minimal velocity gains, point of diminishing returns one might say. I settled on 3.4gr of TG in my M&P Compact 2.0 which yielded 973fps. Its accurate enough that an average shot such as myself can hold 2" at 50".
The XTP is really close to the RMR 147s, and I would swap the data with no issues. Ive tested 147 XTPs all the way to 3.8gr of TG and noticed heavier recoil as I increased powder charge but minimal velocity gains, point of diminishing returns one might say. I settled on 3.4gr of TG in my M&P Compact 2.0 which yielded 973fps. Its accurate enough that an average shot such as myself can hold 2" at 50".
These HMW bullets shoot about 1.5” at 25 yards from my sons Canik. Nothing else I have in 9mm comes close. I’m trying to replicate that for cheaper. By all accounts, HS6 is a great powder for accuracy in 9mm so I’m not likely to match it but I’m going to try.
fxvr5
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This article found no correlation between es/sd and accuracy in a typical pistol at a typical pistol distance of 25 yards.
https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/
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I have not shot anything heavier than a 124 grain bullet in my 9mm pistols. Talked to the gunsmith David Sams when I sent back my Beretta M92 to have an optical sight fitted. David said you have to push the 9mm fast, from no lower than 1150 fps to 1200 fps for the 115 grain match bullets to be stable at 50 yards. I would assume the same is true for all bullet weights.
This is something that is not addressed at all in the in print press, that is when do bullets tumble. I have seen tumbling with very low velocity 44 caliber bullets in a handgun, and I have seen a surprising number of boat tail rifle bullets tumble between 300 yards and 600 yards while shooting at CMP Talladega.
You are going to have to test your loads and see if the bullet twist and velocity keep the things stable. Bullet twist is also very important, my Marlin 1894 has a 1:38" twist, far too slow to stabilize bullets heavier than 240 grain. I tried 290's, and they tumbled. Longer and heavier bullets require a faster twist to stay stable, and I don't know what the limits are for a 9mm.
Once you sail into the ocean of myth and legend, you are on your own! Might be monsters in those waters!
This is something that is not addressed at all in the in print press, that is when do bullets tumble. I have seen tumbling with very low velocity 44 caliber bullets in a handgun, and I have seen a surprising number of boat tail rifle bullets tumble between 300 yards and 600 yards while shooting at CMP Talladega.
You are going to have to test your loads and see if the bullet twist and velocity keep the things stable. Bullet twist is also very important, my Marlin 1894 has a 1:38" twist, far too slow to stabilize bullets heavier than 240 grain. I tried 290's, and they tumbled. Longer and heavier bullets require a faster twist to stay stable, and I don't know what the limits are for a 9mm.
Once you sail into the ocean of myth and legend, you are on your own! Might be monsters in those waters!
AJC1
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Your conflating velosity with individual powder character. Pressure is a vital component to effective and efficient burn, and in the same senerio you could probably not download hs-6 to match a good load made with tightgroup. Matching velosity has only effective in my experence when making lot to lot adjustments and is not an effective technique across broad burnrates.
Charlie98
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I was going to mention that... and I forgot. OP wasn't really going into the danger zone with TG, but with those 147's... you never know. Good call.
DMW, I would tend to agree with what the others are saying... a bullet's velocity in and of itself isn't the sole determination of accuracy, and I'm sure you know that. Although I don't like TiteGroup, I admit it's a pretty good 9mm powder, I just don't think the 147's are it's happy place... but you won't know that until you try, you might find some Magical Place with it. For what it's worth, I feel the same way about WST and 230grn bullets in the .45ACP. If I had a choice between HS-6 and TiteGroup with 147grn 9mm, I'd take HS-6 every day, and twice on Sunday. I'd be curious to see if you had stability problems at those low velocities, too... I don't know if I've ever run into that, and particularly in the 9mm, simply because I tend to drive my bullets towards the faster end of load data.
I had the same problem with my .45 Colt Marlin 1894... my standard handgun load of 9grn Unique under a 255grn cast bullet was an utter failure in the Marlin. I actually sold the rifle I was so disgusted with it... before I understood the cause. It was a very expensive lesson.
I haven’t seen any sign of instability with the HS6 load and it is slower than the Titegroup load, if Hodgden is to be believed. One of the best loads so far from my Shield has been a Berrys 147 grain plated bullet and a minimum charge of W231. I’ll load a few tonight and check them next range trip.
I spent probably an hour on the phone with Marlin Customer Service in 1999 before I sent my 44 Mag M1894 in for a Ballard Barrel. Marlin was absolutely tone deaf, they were not going to change the twist on their rifle, so customers could shoot heavy bullets, for any reason what so ever. I was told "It's SAAMI spec!". SAAMI is a voluntary standards organization, SAAMI standards do not have the force of law, and gunmakers regularly ignore them when they want to. Marlin did not want to change and was justifying the do nothing decision by blaming someone else.
The real bottom line is, organizations only respond to external forces, they are incapable of self reform. At the time, Marlin did not have real competition in the 44 Mag lever action market. You could not convince the Marlin organization that change was needed, because, they were not losing sales to someone with a better product.
Well they are gone. Hopefully Ruger will make advancements that the ossified Marlin New Haven Organization was incapable of understanding.
I do not disagree with their findings in the least. One thing worth pointing out though is that their results with their ES/SDs are actually fairly good. PP was a bit higher, as I consider a low teens SD and an ES around 50 to not be horrible. The TB results were fantastic with single digit SD and ES of 20ish. Because of this, Im not surprised at the results they ended up with. If they would have had an ES of 100 I wonder if the results would have been markedly different?
I consider ES of 100 to be bad and you need to examine what is going on. In a low charge weight powder like TG an ES of a 100 could put you in a position where you are over max charge, especially being that TG is one of those powders that has a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly. That 100 ES could be indicative of .2 or even .3 gr of powder which could end up being a bad thing. Obviously some powders have much wider load ranges and are far more forgiving.
Personally? Im an average pistol shot. My load dev for pistol is simple. I load to a specific velocity that is safe for the powder and bullet Im using in the handgun Im using. Then I look at the ES/SD numbers to determine if its a relatively consistent load. If Im getting the velocity I want, Im happy. I dont even put a target up, just shoot them over the chrono in the berm and call it done. So far its seems to work pretty well for the shooting I do.
Charlie98
Member
That's me, in a nutshell. I don't shoot handguns for 'target' accuracy, I handload them and shoot them for 'combat' accuracy. I expect a certain velocity... and if the chrono shows me that, I throw them up on paper. Unless there is something really wrong... it's a done deal.
Sometimes the twain shall meet, and I get everything I want...
(4" S&W 58, 215grn SWC over 8.5grn Unique @1000fps...)
... and sometimes I just get most of what I want...
(4.25" Kimber ProEclipse II, 230grn Rainier PRN over 6.5grn Unique @800fps...)
I personally wouldn't use Titegroup for this load as it's operating window is pretty small. If I didn't have so much N310 available, I'd likely try Shooters World Cleanshot
I'm shooting that exact bullet out of my S&W M&P9 using an Apex Grade barrel from Apex Tactical. I usually shoot the 124gr MW over a load of Sport Pistol (in place of N320), but this barrel shot the HMW so much better that I broke down a dug out a few thousand to try. My most accurate load was using a heavy 3.1gr of N310, ignited by a Genix SPP, seated to 1.08" to plunk in my barrel (the Apex is pretty tight and the HMW pretty fat; a good reason not to use Titgroup).
I’d love some Cleanshot if I could find any. Only one LGS Carrie’s SW powders and they haven’t had any in a long while.
It might be an abject failure. I’m not sure if it’s the Titegroup or the traditional lubed bullets but the HBWC loads I’ve been shooting seem dirtier than usual. Than again I haven’t shot anything else in my revolver in so long I might just be remembering it all wrong. If it is indeed the Titegroup I probably won’t get any more. I’m out now as it is. Dividing up that last 30 grains to load 9 rounds was pretty tedious. I can’t say the Titegroup/HBWC combo doesn’t shoot though. Even if I decide it’s too dirty or some other issue, I at least hope these shoot well.
It might be an abject failure. I’m not sure if it’s the Titegroup or the traditional lubed bullets but the HBWC loads I’ve been shooting seem dirtier than usual. Than again I haven’t shot anything else in my revolver in so long I might just be remembering it all wrong. If it is indeed the Titegroup I probably won’t get any more. I’m out now as it is. Dividing up that last 30 grains to load 9 rounds was pretty tedious. I can’t say the Titegroup/HBWC combo doesn’t shoot though. Even if I decide it’s too dirty or some other issue, I at least hope these shoot well.
lordpaxman
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This is one advantage of having chrono data for reloading. When this occurs at the higher end of published data I believe it’s the point of bad things can happen. TGs infamous for this. OTOH, N320, in my data, remains fairly linear in this regard.
The competition crowd loves TG primarily for the low charge weight translating to reduced recoil. I’m not sure if this is one of the objectives, but I’ve always found TG to have a sharper felt recoil than N320 or Sport Pistol.
I’m interested in your group size vs velocity for the different powders. When I first started using a chrono it was with the 9mm and I looked for the lowest es/sd numbers to find the smallest group size, it was with TG, and it didn’t happen that way.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Accurate No.2 is very close to Cleanshot. I won’t recommend crossing the data streams (Egon says that’s very bad) but they are close enough to share starting loads reasonably safely if No.2-specific information is not available.
N555
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In hand guns maybe.
For 45acp about a 4.5gr charge of WST, solo or other faster powder under a 230gr bullet can make really good groups. Velocity I around 700fps.
This phenomenon appears to be more powder dependent than as a reault of velocity. Say I down load HP38 to around 700fps, it doesn't work and I get high SD. With about 4.5gr of WST my SD is stupid low, nearly singe digit, if I load HP38 to around 700fps velocity will be all over the place, more like a 60fps SD.
For 45acp about a 4.5gr charge of WST, solo or other faster powder under a 230gr bullet can make really good groups. Velocity I around 700fps.
This phenomenon appears to be more powder dependent than as a reault of velocity. Say I down load HP38 to around 700fps, it doesn't work and I get high SD. With about 4.5gr of WST my SD is stupid low, nearly singe digit, if I load HP38 to around 700fps velocity will be all over the place, more like a 60fps SD.
Ive shot both 320 and TG with 147s and found them almost identical in recoil impulse. The major difference I found between the two was 320 was cooler and cleaner burning. If I didnt have 6# of TG on the shelf, Id have made the switch to 320 a long time ago, but stupid TG seems to last forever.
Ive found TG to more snappy with lighter bullets, so I generally just use it for 147s in 9mm and 230s in 45ACP where is really seems to shine. I have been extremely pleased with CFE-P for lighter stuff for recoil impulse and velocity.
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