Cost comparison of reloading 2000 rounds of .45 Colt and .38 special for CAS.

[MCMXI]

I recently ordered a pair of USFA Rodeo revolvers with the intent of getting into CAS. I've been reloading for many years, and like many here, I reload for a number of reasons.

1. I REALLY enjoy it.
2. Developing VERY accurate loads for my rifles.
3. Developing accurate/reliable loads for my pistols and revolvers.
4. Reduce costs associated with shooting.
5. I REALLY enjoy it.

I knew I wanted to shoot .45 or .44 caliber revolvers since I personally feel (and there's documentation to back this up) that the majority of the cowboys in the "wild west" favored those two calibers for day to day use in their revolvers and rifles. Anyway, I've read a lot on this board about the cost differences between shooting .45 Colt and .38 special. One member claimed that it's about 50% cheaper to shoot .38 special compared to .45 Colt. Here are some comparative "real world" numbers that I came up with.

Cases: 200 new/unfired Remington cases purchased from MidwayUSA.
Powder: IMR Trail Boss bought in 9oz containers from a local gun shop.
Primers: Winchester large and small pistol purchased in bricks of 1000 from a local gunshop.
Bullets: 200 gr RNFP and 158 gr RNFP purchased on line.

All prices used in the calculations include shipping and sales tax if bought locally. These calculations assume that 200 new cases of .38 special and .45 Colt can be reloaded 10 times for 2000 loads.


.38 special
Remington .38 special case
158 gr RNFP bullet
3.5 gr of IMR Trail Boss powder
Winchester small pistol primer

Average cost per load
($) (# of loads)
0.374 200
0.258 400
0.219 600
0.200 800
0.188 1000
0.180 1200
0.175 1400
0.171 1600
0.167 1800
0.165 2000

Total cost for 2000 rounds = $329.38


.45 Colt
Remington .45 Colt case
200 gr RNFP bullet
5.8 gr of IMR Trail Boss powder
Winchester large pistol primer


Average cost per load
($) (# of loads)
0.487 200
0.324 400
0.269 600
0.242 800
0.226 1000
0.215 1200
0.207 1400
0.201 1600
0.197 1800
0.193 2000

Total cost for 2000 rounds = $386.26

So there's a 17.3% increase in cost associated with shooting .45 Colt compared to .38 special (for the loads listed). The case is the biggest initial investment in both cases (no pun intended) but after the first load, the breakdown per load is as follows:

.38 special
Bullet Powder Primer
$0.09 $0.02 $0.04

.45 Colt
Bullet Powder Primer
$0.10 $0.03 $0.04

Anyway, I hope someone finds this comparison interesting or useful. I've read some posts claiming that reloading doesn't offer much in the way of savings and I've been told that by a couple of local gun shop owners too. 2000 rounds of Blackhills CAS 250 gr will cost you $1240 plus over $200 in shipping!! One of the cheapest CAS loads I've seen is the 200 gr from Magtech which costs about $1120 for 2000 rounds plus over $200 in shipping. So it's clear that reloading for CAS is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 the cost!!

 

[rcmodel]

Hang and be dang the cost, what would "Real" Cowboys shoot?

rcmodel

 

[SJ1]

1858, thanks for doing all the research and posting it. I've sent it to s/o who does his own reloading. It was very kind of you to post it.

 

[MCMXI]

SJ1, you're welcome ... and welcome to this wonderful forum. Like you I'm a newcomer and I've learned so much since being here.

I should add, the reloading numbers above are close to a worst-case scenario. It's possible to reduce costs even further by casting your own bullets, buying powder and primers in bulk, using cases more than 10 times, reducing the amount of powder, using lighter bullets etc.

 

[Piney Woods]

1858, I think you'll find that by loading mild 'cowboy' loads, you'll get way more than 10 reloads per case. Some of my Starline 45 Colt cases have been loaded 50 times and show no signs of impending failure. That's loading 200 gr bullets to 625 FPS in a 5 1/2" Vaquero - a fairly mild 45 load, but with plenty of power if you come across any pistol knockdowns.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I shoot .38's for SASS, as does my wife. We buy our powder (Bullseye) by the 8 pound keg for $99.99, and there's no sales tax or shipping in our state, and we buy it at Sportsman's Warehouse. Primers cost us $26.99 per thousand, again no tax or shipping. We just purchased 20,000 bullets for $48.50 per thousand, delivered.

I load our loads with 3.0 grains of Bullseye, which gives us roughly 18,666 rounds per 8 lb. keg. I figure it's costing me about $180.50 per thousand to load them. I'm still loading .38 brass that I've had for years and years, so I don't count any cost for brass.

For me and my wife, the .38 made sense, as far as costs were concerned. When we started, I already had two carbines in .357 magnum, as well as about 10,000 rounds of .38 brass on hand. I also had about 15,000 .38 cast bullets in stock. I got a good deal on two Ruger Blackhawks that had been built by Oglesby & Oglesby of Springfield, Illinois, and I bought my wife two Great Western II's in .357.

I didn't have any .45 Colt ammunition, brass or bullets, so it was a no brainer for me to choose .38 Special for this game. It's worked out well for us, and the main thing is, we're shooting together and having a ball doing it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[zxcvbob]

You can cut your costs several cents per round by using Wolf primers and Alliant Promo powder, and ordering them from someplace like Powder Valley or Grafs -- even with the shipping and hazmat fees.

(Your bullet prices also look too high, but I dunno, I haven't bought bullets in a while.)

 

[VegasOPM]

There are some other benefits to reloading for CAS. There aren't any power minimums- so a 150gr .38 at 700fps is ample. My buddy would shoot 125's at 700 fps and keep a few heavier loads for the rare occasion that there was a pistol knock down on the stage. With lead prices going through the roof, the pricing on bullets has become a matter of materials cost. A 250gr bullet costs about twice what a 125 gr bullet costs.

As stated, case life with low pressure rounds is quite long- just don't "bell" the cartridge too much prior to bullet insertion. Only open them up enough to get the bullet started without shaving lead.

 

[MCMXI]

(Your bullet prices also look too high, but I dunno, I haven't bought bullets in a while.)

The prices are for laser-cast bullets made by Oregon Trail.

.45 200gr - $99.00/1000

.38 158gr - $90.45/1000


I hope I'm being fair in comparing a .45 Colt 200 gr bullet with 5.8 grains of Trail Boss to a .38 158 gr bullet with 3.5 grains of Trail Boss in terms of whether or not you'd find those loads used at CAS matches. I have to thank owlhoot for the .45 Colt recipe since he's the one that recommended it. I chose the 158 gr load based on load data from IMR for Trail Boss powder. 3.5 grains behind a 158 grain bullet is right in the middle of the recommended range.

 

[MCMXI]

Hmmm ... comparing a 250 gr .45 Colt load to a 125 gr .38 special load ...

... using 5.8 grains (max) of TB powder in the .45 Colt and only 3.0 grains (min) of TB powder in the .38 special the cost increase of .45 Colt compared to .38 special is ....

18.7%

Still a long way off from the supposed 100% increase in cost that I've read on this board. So if any of you are struggling with the .45 Colt or .38 special decision, perhaps this will help you make a choice that you're happy with. I know I did!!

 

[MCMXI]

A 250gr bullet costs about twice what a 125 gr bullet costs.

Where do you buy your bullets? If you compare bullets from Oregon trail, a 250 grain RNFP .45 bullet is $115.65/1000 and a 125 grain FP .38 bullet is $86.40/1000. That's only a 34% increase and it's an unfair comparison anyway since it compares one of the heaviest .45s to one of the lightest .38s. From what I can gather, many shooters want loads that will feed in a lever action rifle so they may want a RNFP. A much more reasonable comparison then is a 200 grain RNFP .45 which is $99.00/1000 and a 158 grain RNFP .38 which is $90.45/1000. That's only a 9.5% increase in cost!!

 

[Bitswap]

I'm going to chime in here only cause I shoot CAS.

Go 45 colt. You can load these with anything from 'powder puff' loads to 44 mag levels. Since your into this, you'll need a lever action like the 1894, do that in 45 too. Just be sure the twist rates are the same.

Reason I say 45 colt is 'cause it will serve dual purpose. With a blackhawk with non-adjustable sights, you can use it as a camp gun loaded for bear. Same with the 1894. The blackhawk loaded with cowboy loads is a pleasure to shoot. If you decide to get out of the sport, you can use them anything you'd use a 44 mag for. Under 100 yards, the 1894 is my go-to gun but a bit hard on rabbits.

IMO, the 45 is has much more utility than the 38 on and off the stage. Brass for these seem to last forever. The 45 may cost a bit more but well worth it.

I use 200 grain bullets for cas and 250's for camping. Clays will work for the 45 and your shotgun. With the 45 you can live in the present with magum loads or the past with bp loads. Guess you could do the same with the 38. But real cowboys used the 45 colt. If y'all gots a hankering to call me on that, I'll meet ya at the livery station at noon and we can settle things proper.

Whatever you decide to do, welcome to CAS!!! Half the cost is the rifles, and the other half is in the outfit... just kidding.

Got a name yet?

 

[MCMXI]

Got a name yet?

Bitswap, no name yet ... still thinking. Thanks for the great tips. I was wondering about the Marlin 1894 since that's what I've ordered. I have a Cowboy Limited in .45 Colt with a 20" barrel on its way and I've been wondering what it's capable of. I have two USFA Rodeos coming this Tuesday but it's my understanding that I can only shoot "standard" .45 Colt loads in those. How about the 1894? I plan to shoot the same loads in the Rodeos and 1894 for CAS but is the 1894 able to handle more, and if so, how much more.

zxcvbob, VegasOPM, ReloaderFred and Piney Woods, thanks for the suggestions and comments ... it's much appreciated.

zxcvbob, I think I'll be ordering from Powder Valley in the future ... thanks for the tip!

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

WOW, thank you for the time and effort in putting this together.

 

[Hutch]

Lots of effort and thought by the OP, BUT...

158gr is the classic weight for .38Spl, 200gr is light for the .45C. Original loadings were 250 - 255gr bullets, and most fixed sight revolvers were regulated to shoot those to POA. No fair comparing 158 to 200. Regarding the usefulness of the .45 as a camp gun, I bet most cowboys, when faced with a big critter in camp, would reach for the coach gun or '97 pump gun, so I don't think that's a valid reason for going to .45Colt. I agree that the .45's and .44's were much more common, 'way back when.

Brass may not wear out much, but you still gotta get some, and continue to replace the ones that get lost. 38Spl brass is way, way cheaper to buy than .45C. For this reason, I generally shoot my .44 Bis-queros and a Marlin .357 carbine. (you never lose revolver brass...)

Hope I didn't offend anyone

Hutch, aka "Tubby Thumbwheeler", CAS #43841.

 

[fecmech]

If your casting your own bullets the cost for .38 and .45 is pretty much the same.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I do cast my own bullets in a lot of cases, and with today's prices of lead, and the difficulty in obtaining wheel weights, the cost isn't anywhere near the same for casting two bullets of differing weights.

All my SASS loads are now with 125 grain RNFP bullets in .38 caliber, just to make my hoard of lead go farther. With the lighter bullet, that's the one area where I can conserve.

I have roughly 1,100 pounds of bullet metal on hand, which would give me approximately 61,600 of the 125 grain .38 bullets, but would only net me 38,500 of the 200 grain .45 bullets. If I decided to go to 105 grain bullets in the .38, then this same amount of lead would yield me 73,333 bullets.

But this is only if I was going to convert all my supply into one bullet or the other, which I won't, since I've got over 40 bullet molds of differing calibers and weights. It's just an example of the different amount of lead it takes to make each bullet. I do however have molds for both the .357" 125 grain RNFP and the .452" 200 grain RNFP.

I purchased the 20,000 125 grain bullets mentioned in the earlier post simply because at today's prices for lead, it was cheaper than casting that amount myself and sizing and lubricating them.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[JeepGeeek]

you're reloading for Close Air Support?!!?

 

[David Wile]

Hey 18,

I don't think it matters too much which calibers you choose - if you just think about it in the right way. For instance, if you had a .44 Mag, you just think of it as a plain old 44 and forget the Mag part. If you use a .357 Mag, you don't think .38 caliber - you think .36 caliber and tell yourself if .36 caliber was good enough for Bill Hickok it certainly is good enough for you and me.

While I don't do CAS, I have observed some competitions, and I think the use of lighter bullets in any caliber is a good way to save some bucks. Unless they are shooting knock-down targets, it seems a lot of those cowboys are shooting some fairly light loads and bullets. Recoil is not very evident for me

As far as case life goes, forget your calculations based on 20 reloads. Shooting light CAS loads, your cases will most likely last you the better part of a lifetime. Other folks have already mentioned using a light belling of the mouth to work the brass less. And you really do not need to crimp loads for CAS use. There isn't enough recoil to move bullets even in lever action rifles.

Use whatever caliber makes the most sense to you personally and don't worry about what others think.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[ReloaderFred]

JeepGeek,

Both my wife and I shoot Cowboy Action Shooting and we go through a lot of ammunition in a year's time. It's a fun game and it's great that my wife is also having fun doing it.

With the matches we shoot each month, and a few practice sessions thrown in, the 20,000 rounds of bullets I bought will be gone in about two years at the most, and probably before then.

My shooting partner and I bought a Magma Master Caster, and we're casting our own for future use. It takes time to cast, plus about the same amount of time to size and lube, so we try to get ahead several thousand. I gave him one of my Star sizer lubricator machines, so we both work on them.

We took a shooting vacation this year and several of us shot in the Wyoming State Championships and then went to New Mexico for End of Trail, where the rest of the group met up with us. We carried all the guns and ammunition for the whole group, since several of them were flying to New Mexico. If we had gotten stopped and searched in the wrong state, we would have been headline news.

Cowboy Action Shooting is a game that we all enjoy. It's also addictive. There are now over 80,000 aliases registered with SASS, so there are a lot of people who agree.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[zxcvbob]

As far as case life goes, forget your calculations based on 20 reloads. Shooting light CAS loads, your cases will most likely last you the better part of a lifetime. Other folks have already mentioned using a light belling of the mouth to work the brass less. And you really do not need to crimp loads for CAS use. There isn't enough recoil to move bullets even in lever action rifles.

If you have a set of 9mm dies, you can use its taper crimp die for light .357's and .38 Specials. The brass will last longer than if you roll crimped it, but you still get a bit of insurance from the crimp.

 

[MCMXI]

Some more comparisons based on 20 reloads of 200 cases (4000 rounds) ....

A lot of good points have been made. The reason for doing this comparison is to help out others that might be struggling with the whole .45 Colt vs. .38 Special issue. I just wanted to show some real world comparisons of the cost associated with shooting either of these excellent calibers.

The plots above show four "typical" choices for those shooting .38 Special and/or .45 Colt. I was interested to see that the cost of shooting a max. load .38 Special with a 125 grain bullet is almost identical to shooting a max. load 158 grain bullet due to the difference in the amount of powder used. Also, it can be seen from the plot that it costs about 32% more to shoot a max. load 250 grain .45 Colt compared to a min. load 125 grain .38 Special. Not a fair comparison either but it shows that the cost difference isn't even close to the "twice as expensive to shoot" claim.

And you really do not need to crimp loads for CAS use. There isn't enough recoil to move bullets even in lever action rifles.

Dave, I'm about to start loading .45 Colt and was planning on a roll crimp. I kind of figured that a roll crimp was overkill in a revolver but how about a lever action rifle i.e. loading one? Is there a concern that without a roll crimp the bullet could get pushed further into the case during loading?

Thanks.

 

[zxcvbob]

The roll crimp is more important in the revolver than it is in the levergun because revolver bullets tend to jump *forward* and tie up the gun. I don't think the crimp or the neck tension hold as tightly to prevent the bullets from jumping out as they do from setting back.

 

[MCMXI]

zxcvbob ... hmmm, I hadn't thought of it that way. So do you crimp or not?

 

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

18 asked if he needed to crimp rounds for CAS lever gun use, and I had already suggested that crimping would not be required for the light loads used by a whole lot of CAS folks. However, I do not shoot CAS, and I do lightly crimp my .357 and .44 mag loads for revolver as well as lever gun. I also crimp a bit heavier for my 45-70 rounds, but I never have had any need to use any Lee Factory Crimp Die for any rounds. I simply use the bullet seating die to set a crimp - if I want one.

When it comes to CAS loads, I would suggest at least testing your light CAS loads without any crimp to see if there is any bullet movement without any crimp. If there is no bullet movement, there is no need to crimp. Obviously the testing should be done at the range rather than at a competition.

It seems to me that the reloading community has gone a bit "crimp crazy" in the last dozen or so years. When I first started reloading forty some years ago, folks did not seem to do as much crimping as they do today. I would avoid crimping anything that really did not require it, and I would suspect the light loads shot at CAS competitions just might not require any crimping at all.

Having thrown out all this big idea advice, I will again admit that my only experience with CAS events has been as a spectator. So I readily admit my premise may be wrong, but it is likely to be worth testing to verify your own requirements.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile