Cost comparison of reloading 2000 rounds of .45 Colt and .38 special for CAS.

[ReloaderFred]

You absolutely must crimp any rounds that are intended for lever action rifles and carbines. I've seen over and over where during a match, someone has had their rifle lock up and jam completely because a round collapsed inside the magazine tube and was too short for the carrier to pick up and feed.

This is one of the most common problems, other than high primers. This is caused by either not crimping sufficiently, or using split cases for rifle loads. Some people try to get "one more load" from brass that's at it's life's end, and pay for it in a lost stage.

When 10 rounds are loaded into the magazine tube, they are under tremendous pressure from the magazine spring, which is compressed the length of those 10 rounds. Unless they're crimped, the bullets will be pushed into the case, which not only jams the rifle, but in the event the round is fired, increases pressure greatly.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ReloaderFred]

David,

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on the crimp issue. The light charges of generally fast powder used for Cowboy Action Shooting require a good crimp for good ignition. Very few shooters that I know use Trail Boss powder. In fact, I only know of one out of hundreds. Most use Bullseye, Clays, Universal Clays, Winchester 231 or VV powders. For these powders, and light bullets, you need to crimp to get them to burn properly. Almost every shooter I know uses 125-130 grain bullets in .38 Special. Those shooting .45 Colt are generally using anything from 165 grain to 200 grain bullets, but most are using 180 grain. With those "light for caliber" bullets, and fast powders, a crimp is necessary or you'll get substandard velocity and lots of unburned powder in the bore.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[MCMXI]

ReloaderFred, I just picked up 4 containers (9oz each) of Trail Boss powder good for almost 3000 loads. I have a lot of 231 powder that I use for my other handguns but due to the voluminous .45 Colt case I decided to use Trail Boss (based on some research and owlhoot's recommendation). However, I may well be in the minority if your experience is typical. Thanks for the advice on crimping though. I was under the impression that ammunition intended for tube magazines MUST be crimped to avoid seating the bullet further into the case during loading/firing which could result in significant pressure increases.

Dave, thanks for raising this issue and generating an interesting discussion.

 

[ReloaderFred]

1858,

If Long Hunter did your revolvers, they will be good ones. Jim does good work. You might also have him do an action job on your Marlin when you get it. He makes a one piece firing pin for the Marlins that I very highly recommend.

He buys his short stroke kits for the Model 1866 and 1873 Winchesters from a friend of mine that are the best on the market.

Best of luck.

Fred

 

[zxcvbob]

zxcvbob ... hmmm, I hadn't thought of it that way. So do you crimp or not?

I crimp everything, usually rather lightly. But I also don't expand the case mouths except for just flaring the ends a little, so my rounds have quite high neck tension. I don't go crazy with the crimping because I don't want my brass to split at the mouth after 2 or 3 loads.

I have experimented with using a taper crimp on .38 Specials; it worked but I didn't test it enough to reach any conclusions.

The worst problem I've had with bullets jumping the crimp was with copper-plated .45 bullets in .45 Colt using fast (Red Dot) powder.

 

[fecmech]

I do cast my own bullets in a lot of cases, and with today's prices of lead, and the difficulty in obtaining wheel weights, the cost isn't anywhere near the same for casting two bullets of differing weights.

Fred I won't argue that you will get a lot more 125 gr .38 bullets than 200gr .45 bullets but the cost difference per box of 50 is negligeable. If you are paying a dollar a pound for lead (which I'm sure not and I'd bet you are not paying) the cost difference per box of 50 rds of ammo is 51 cents! Primers and powder is the same. I pay $21./1000 for primers and $14./lb for Bullseye powder, that makes the .45's cost ( with dollar a pound lead) $2.82/box and .38's cost $2.31 per box of 50. I'm paying closer to $.20/lb. for my lead so my diference in cost between a 125 and 200 gr. bullet is $.10 per box and I don't consider that a significant cost difference. I only shoot 8-10 k rds per year so the $.10 may be a bigger factor to you.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I'm pretty new to reloading but have been having a ball with .38 special "cowboy loads".

I scored a nice deal on some Speer 158gr bullets so right now I'm cranking .38 Special loads out for about $0.16 each.

Speer 158gr RNFP
4.5gr Unique
Federal Brass (with a light roll crimp)
CCI small pistol Primers
COAL 1.455"

and I'm getting consistent results like this from my Ruger Blackhawks.

 

[zxcvbob]

Not bad... except for those 3 flyers on the left

 

[ReloaderFred]

Fecmech,

With me, it's not just a matter of cost per round. It's a matter of making the material go as far as I can, while it's still available.

Around here, wheelweights are impossible to obtain from any of the tire shops. The Exide Battery Company has an agreement with all of them to buy all their wheelweights, and Exide provides the collection buckets.

The nearest scrap dealer, which is 60 miles away, won't even let you take lead on the property, let alone buy or sell it. If you ask them about lead, they treat you like you've got some infectious disease.

The state immediately to the south of us has declared lead a hazardous substance, and has everyone in the region scared. They've banned lead wheelweights down there, lead sinkers for fishing have been outlawed for years, and lead bullets are banned in about 1/3 of the state, with pressure to make it a statewide ban.

My intent is to make my lead go as far as possible, and if that means shooting 105 grain bullets in some of my .38 loads, then I'll do it. I don't deal in boxes of 50 rounds. The minimum boxes I deal with are 1,000 round boxes, due to the volume of our loading and shooting. Every place I can save, whether it's in cash outlay or materials, adds up rather quickly. The last time I tried to figure up the number of rounds I've loaded, it was over 750,000 over the years, but in all probability, it's many more than that. I currently load for 29 different calibers, but all my cowboy shooting is done with .38's and 12 gauge. For the 12 gauge, I'm loading a 7/8 ounce load at 1150 fps, also to make it easier on the old 1897 shotguns we shoot, and to make the shot last more shells. For awhile, shot was $49.99 a bag around here, but it's currently back to about $42.99 a bag. My shooting partner and I bought 1,000 pounds of shot just before it went up, and paid $19.00 a bag. With the 1 1/8 ounce that's standard for most shotgun shells, you get 355 loads per bag of shot. With the 7/8 ounce load, I get 457 loads per bag. Not only am I saving some money, but I'm making the shot last for more loads, and getting the same results.

For me, the bottom line is to get as much bang for the buck (pun intended) as I can, and to make the materials go as far as I can.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[zxcvbob]

Lead is getting hard to find here too. I have a few hundred pounds of it is all. I buy bullets and lead when I can find them cheap, but cheap doesn't come along as often as it used to.

I like shooting heavy bullets, and while most reloaders scrounge range brass, I try to pick up at least 5 or 10 pounds of *lead* every time I go shooting.

That probably won't work for R.Fred because he shoots a lot more at a time than I do, but I like seeing my lead pile grow a little each time I shoot instead of shrinking.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I never pass up a piece of brass, or a piece of lead that I can reuse. Even the brass I can't use gets recycled. I'm a firm believer that reloaders were recycling long before it became a fad. I've read stories from the 1800's where hunters recovered the bullets from game and remelted them. This was especially true of the Mountain Men, who hauled everything they owned on their back and maybe a pack animal, and didn't see another friendly human for almost a year.

Fred

 

[fecmech]

Fred--If you want to make your shot go further use 3/4 oz. in the 12 ga. If you use Red Dot (a bulky, cheap powder) and Claybuster grey(7/8 oz.) wads there are no crimp adjustments using AA,STS, Rem Gun Club cases. The load we use for sporting clays is 17.0 Red Dot/ 3/4 oz. shot, which gives 1200 fps with no loading problems in any of the above mentioned hulls. I understand completely your desire to stretch your lead supply, I was simply replying to you saying there was a big cost difference when casting, when for the average shooter that is not the case if you are casting.

 

[ReloaderFred]

fecmech,

I understand your point completely. It's just that things are changing and we have to be able to change with them. I used to be able to get all the wheelweights I could handle just for hauling them away, but that's no longer the case. Everything is getting harder to come by that we used to take for granted. I remember when surplus rifle ammunition used to be a one cent a round, and thought it was always going to be that way. I also thought I could always buy surplus IMR 4831 for 35 cents a pound when I first started loading in 1963, but we've seen how that turned out. For what powder cost per pound now, I could have bought 57 pounds back then. Of course we're talking about different dollar values, too.

I just wanted to point out that in my case there's more to it than just the dollar. It's kind of like the discussion of the value of a bolt. If you're standing in front of the bolt bin in the local hardware store, and the bolt cost $1.00, then it's worth $1.00. But if you're stranded in the middle of the desert, and that bolt is what you need to get back to civilization, then that bolt takes on a whole new value. It's kind of like that with lead. It used to be everywhere, but now it's not, and who knows what the future holds?

Our local gun club has even passed a rule that you can't take lead off the range, since they're afraid of the "hazardous materials" rules that say you have to be able to certify where those materials ultimately ended up. They're afraid that someone will collect bullets and stockpile a bunch of lead, and then either store it improperly or dump it, and it's going to be traced back to the club. I offered to sign a document that I was going to turn it back into bullets and they would end up with it back again, but they're so afraid of the Department of Environmental Quality, that they turned me down. All lead has to be collected and only sold to a company who deals in lead, period. Of course, I'd be lying if I said I never picked up the bullets I see laying on the range, but I do turn them back into bullets and they do get them back again.

I do load with Red Dot for the shotgun, and use the 7/8 oz. load. I may try the 3/4 oz. load and see if it will knock over the steel shotgun targets. If it will, with cylinder bore shotguns, then I may reduce my load to that. The problem with cylinder bore is you have to have enough mass to knock the targets over and so far the 7/8 oz. load has been about the lower limit, though our load is only 1150 pfs.

Thanks for the discussion.

Fred

 

[MCMXI]

Fred,
You raise an interesting point ... are there alternatives to lead? I imagine that 99.0% of bullets are either lead (with or without a copper jacket) or copper. Copper is very expensive these days too so I hope the folks at Sierra, Barnes, Speer etc are working hard to figure out what we'll be using next!

 

[ReloaderFred]

1858,

I got a call today from a friend who has a custom ammunition loading business about that very thing. He's been written up in Guns & Ammo Magazine and specializes in obsolete and hard to find ammunition. I make some of his custom cast bullets for him. I've made him .577 Snyder, 6.5x53R and numerous other bullets that he couldn't get anywhere else.

Anyway, he has a customer from the next state south that wants to carry his 9mm as a sidearm when he's hunting pigs with a rifle. The only way the customer can do that, since he's hunting in the California Condor range, is to carry non-lead bullets in his handgun, and use non-lead bullets in his rifle. The rifle rounds aren't a problem, since he can use Barnes, etc. My friend wanted to know if I knew of any bullet companies making totally non-lead bullets for handguns. The only one I could think of off the top of my head was Sinter Fire, Inc., on the East Coast. Western Nevada Bullet Company used to make them, but I believe they may have closed their doors. Barnes makes some pistol bullets, but not in 9mm.

There will be companies developing non-lead bullets, but they won't expand like lead and will cost more than lead. Zinc has been used for years to make some pistol bullets, but it leaves a lot to be desired. Solid copper bullets will work, if done right, but are very expensive.

Most of the non-lead pistol bullets now are frangible, and not suited to hunting or self defense use. There will be some in the forseeable future, but the cost is going to be the big issue, if they can work out the performance issues.

Myself, I would prefer to stay with lead. It's not the hazard the state of California says it is and the world isn't coming to an end because of "global warming" either, despite what their governor, and ours, says.

Lead has been used for centuries as bullets, and not all lead issues are the same. Solid lead isn't absorbed into the skin, and unless ingested, isn't a danger to humans, if simple precautions are taken. Specifically, don't eat, drink or smoke while handling lead, and wash your hands after shooting or handling lead.

I've been reloading for 45 years now, and casting bullets for 39 years. I just had my blood checked for lead levels, and it's normal. I do more shooting and casting than the normal shooter does, but I take precautions like those enumerated above. The key is common sense, but unfortunately, it's just not that common anymore.........

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[zxcvbob]

Pewter is what you're looking for, but it's expensive (not as bad as copper tho'.) It's tough, reasonably heavy, and nontoxic -- and it should castable with ordinary bullet molds, but be careful so it doesn't wet the molds. Maybe use a mold release spray.

Most lead alternatives would be illegal in handgun cartridges because of the stupid federal "cop killer" law.

 

[MCMXI]

Anyway, he has a customer from the next state south that wants to carry his 9mm as a sidearm when he's hunting pigs with a rifle. The only way the customer can do that, since he's hunting in the California Condor range, is to carry non-lead bullets in his handgun, and use non-lead bullets in his rifle.

Fred, this seems like another attempt to make gun ownership and the shooting sports extinct. It's a kind of attrition intended to wear down the average shooter in the hope that we'll eventually give up because it "ain't worth the hassle".

zxcvbob, have you seen or used pewter bullets?

Fred, I was thinking last night about how many bullets I (or anyone else) would need to never have to worry about bullet availability in the future. So if you don't mind, what's your number?

 

[ReloaderFred]

1858,

Sorry, but I don't give out what kind of stock I've got on hand, other than an occasional purchase amount. As for the amount anyone needs, that's an individual requirement, and ultimately an individual decision.

Yes, it's a back door gun ban scheme, as far as I'm concerned. The Second Amendment doesn't mention ammunition, does it?

As for pewter as bullets, it's an alloy of tin, antimony, copper and lead, which is why they don't use it for kitchen utensils anymore. It may work, but the lead content would be the target of the "environmentalists".

I don't want to sound like an alarmist, and I don't believe in the "big government conspiracy" or "black helicopters" in the night, but I've been around long enough to see some changes, and I don't like what I'm seeing now concerning our sport. The people trying to ban lead aren't interested in facts, and completely ignore science. It's all based on emotion, and that's the scary part.

Hope this helps.

Fred