Cougar/Panther Comments

[Art Eatman]

Note that I have not at all claimed "black panther" of the sort exemplified by Kipling's "Bagheera". I would doubt the existence of such except on some sort of uber-extreme rarity. But a high-melanin brown if seen at night could readily elicit a description of "black panther".

FWIW, back some 35 or 40 years ago, the YO Ranch near Kerrville had (IIRC) four cougars and three jaguars in cages behind the foreman's house. Bobby Snow's wife's "pets". I never heard the origin of the jaguars.

While they hunt best at night, due to superior night vision, they'll wander around in daytime. A fair number of daylight sightings around here, with a cougar "just wandering along".

Heck, I was sitting here at my computer around 3PM one day and a bobcat ambled casually across my front porch...

 

[Flintknapper]

I did understand the thrust of your post Art, I should not have picked out the "Black Panther" part to post about.

It has taken the thread off-track over a pet peeve of mine.

My apologies.

Flint.

 

[Jalexander]

I saw a lion about a mile and a half from my house last year. I had him dead to rights but with luck being what it is, my rifle was shooting higher than I realized so I only managed to graze him. Never found a trace of him.

Probably a once in a lifetime thing around here but I have been keeping a more vigilant eye out since.

Where in Cedar Creek, Justin? I've heard a couple near there, off of 21, west of Cedar Creek.

James

 

[kyle1974]

a mountain lion is probbaly my #1 trophy I'd like to take. There have been 5 killed in around 20 years on my deer lease, so they're certainly in the area.... just like winning hte lottery if you see one though.

 

[shiftyer1]

I've never seen one but I have seen tracks on my property in dale near taylorsville. There was also a lady in dale wanting someone to hunt one on her land that was taking goats or sheep.

As far as afternoon bobcats, I shot one a couple weeks ago around noon as he was eating one of my chickens!

 

[oneounceload]

Black Panthers in Africa, are actually dark-colored leopards.

Here in FL, the Florida Panther is MUCH smaller than the typical Cougar or mountain lion we used to get out West and tend to have a spotted coat

 

[KodiakBeer]

Credible people are seeing what they believe to be large cats that appear black in color.

Credible people also report bigfoot, flying saucers, ghosts, sea serpents, dogmen, etc, but I'm not going to accept any of these things without some sort of hard evidence.

There are no black cougars (at least none have ever been demonstrated). Black jaguars exist (though extremely rare) and some suggest that it is these, slipping 1000 miles beyond their range that explain the "black panther". Yet, if this were true, wouldn't we be seeing spotted jaguars about 10,000 times more often than black ones?

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Credible people also report bigfoot, flying saucers, ghosts, sea serpents, dogmen, etc, but I'm not going to accept any of these things without some sort of hard evidence.

Fair enough but I see no reason to take someone's opinion as fact (who lives a couple of thousand miles away) over the word of my neighbors.

 

[Justin Holder]

Where in Cedar Creek, Justin? I've heard a couple near there, off of 21, west of Cedar Creek.

James

A few miles down FM535 from the CC elementary school .


I feel there are, or at least at one time were, some form of big black cat roaming the woods of America. I haven't heard about any sightings recently but in the stories the old timers used to tell, often the big cat was black. I don't know how reliable those old stories are, but I am reminded that things were different over 100 years ago. The woods were a whole lot deeper and wilder than they are today.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Fair enough but I see no reason to take someone's opinion as fact (who lives a couple of thousand miles away) over the word of my neighbors.

Fair enough, but then I'm not the one telling you there's a cryptozoological animal creeping around in the back 40.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Fair enough, but then I'm not the one telling you there's a cryptozoological animal creeping around in the back 40.

That too is true. I have been told (not personally but indirectly) by official state wildlife experts that there are no cougars of any color in Alabama regardless of the number of eyewitness accounts to the contrary. They hold that since there are no roadkill carcasses or specimens shot by ranchers/farmers that that is proof there aren't any here. I can't help but laugh at such experts. Having seen 3 seperate cougars as well as countless tracks I KNOW they are here. The same experts declared that eyewitness accounts of black bears were mistaken identity, had to back track in the local newspaper when a farmer in a nearby(10 miles away) county killed one in his beehives,as well as issue a warning to anyone killing one in the future. As for me,I wouldn't be any more surprised to see a black panther than one of any other color. Someone who shot one now would be facing state wildlife charges so I doubt any being shot or atleast admitted to.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I have little doubt that cougars are present in Alabama and other southern states. I don't know if there are breeding populations, but young male cougars have been scientifically proven to travel as much as 1000 miles from their home range. The cougar killed on the outskirts of Chicago a couple years back was DNA tested and shown to be from the Black Hills population. That's a long way from Chicago...

There's no reason cougars couldn't be moving east or more likely north (from Florida) into any of the southern states.

If you look on the net you'll find unmistakable pix of a cougar in the eastern corner of the upper peninsula of Michigan (around Detour IIRC).

 

[JTH]

If you see a Black Jaguar, you can still see thier spots, just not noticable except up close.
JT

 

[azyogi]

Ok, I saw a large blackish feline back in 89. Was still hunting the foothills of the Santa Catalinas between Tucson and Oro Valley. The cat was bigger than a Bobcat but smaller than a Cougar. Smaller even than an average Lab, or Rottie canine. As I was bow hunting and camoed to the max, I got a good long look. Black from face to tail, fading to grey along the flanks, with some spots just in front of the hind legs. Eating a rabbit next to a barrel cactus. If i had caught a fleeting glimpse of it I'd of said black puma. From examining foot prints and the cactus it was next to I am fair sure of it's size. The only thing I have been able to come up with is a Jaguarundi, the one at the Desert Museum is greyer than what I saw but very close. My point is I was lucky to see as much as I did. In the dark or as it ran passed easy enough to mistake it for something else. Game and Fish did not respond to my reported sighting. So who knows.

 

[countertop]

I saw a black panther in the Bronx zoo once as a kid. It was labeled as such, but in reality was a very very very dark brownish color - to the point of almost being black.

The Jacksonville, FL zoo has a great exhibit on jaguars. They have a couple of "black" jaguars (or at least did in August when I took my son there). Again, you could see the spots and the use of the term black was used to simply signify a very ark color.

I've never thought of black as having to mean black. But rather extremely darkly colorred.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Bobcats can be much bigger than people think and come in every color from pure black to spotted to gray. They can stand 24" at the shoulder. I suspect most "black panthers" are actually bobcats.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

FWIW,I trapped our creeks and streams from the time I was 12 years old and never caught or even saw an otter even though others reported seeing them. I eventually wrote it off as mistaken beaver or muskrats or even mink and gave up on otter. That is until the winter of 2008 when I saw 5 roadkill otters,3 within 1 mile of my house. I may never get the privilege of seeing a "black panther" or I may see 2 tomorrow. If I do I won't have a camera and no proof except to myself. If I never see one it still won't prove they don't exist. Won't make much difference either way. What is is,what isn't can't be proven.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I suspect most "black panthers" are actually bobcats.

Surely you don't believe oldtimers don't know a bobcat when they see one? These people tend the same land their parents did. They traverse that land daily and observe wildlife every season of the year.They know how many points the resident bucks have,not from trailcams but from watching them daily. Anything out of the ordinary is noticed immediatly. I can understand mistaking dark brown for black in a low light situation but not seeing a cat with an 8" tail and thinking it was 30''.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Surely you don't believe oldtimers don't know a bobcat when they see one?

Being old doesn't always make you smarter. I wouldn't be disrespectful to anyone claiming they saw a black panther, but I wouldn't believe them either. I'd think they were mistaken.

 

[Art Eatman]

KB, to repeat, folks aren't saying that there are actually-black cougars all over the place. What's the gist of all this is that there indeed are a very few with high melanin--and that the use of "black panther" is nothing more than a casual inaccuracy.

And, in general, bobcats in the southern part of the US are not as large as those found as you get farther north. I've seen six and killed two. I've seen bobcats killed by others. None exceeded some 18" at the shoulder; common weight of 25 to 30 pounds. That includes an old cat I see from time to time, and the one which wandered across my porch one afternoon.


The size thing also true for many other species as well: Farther north, larger critters.

 

[Flintknapper]

Art Eatman wrote:

KB, to repeat, folks aren't saying that there are actually-black cougars all over the place.

The folks here may not be claiming that, but since there are literally thousands of claimed/reported sightings nationwide...then by inference they are.

What's the gist of all this is that there indeed are a very few with high melanin--and that the use of "black panther" is nothing more than a casual inaccuracy.

I can accept a dark color phase or incomplete melanistic cougar or two, but either these two are really "getting around" (as in the entire U.S.) OR....the rest of the people are mistaken. We must reconcile it one way or the other to be intellectually honest, yes?

And, in general, bobcats in the southern part of the US are not as large as those found as you get farther north. I've seen six and killed two. I've seen bobcats killed by others. None exceeded some 18" at the shoulder; common weight of 25 to 30 pounds.

I have killed about a dozen total both in Deep East Texas and South Texas and none have been outside the figures you state. They are not large animals by any stretch of the imagination, but could be perceived as bigger under low-light conditions or where nothing else of known scale was nearby.

Anyway, if a cougar were observed from the side (profile), the long tail (if not obscured) would be readily apparent. It seems to be the one prominent feature mentioned in nearly all claimed sightings. Proportionally, the bobcat more compact and shouldn't confuse anyone familiar with both species.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Here are a couple of links to pictures of (1) a large long tailed black cat and (2) an apparent black bobcat. Both links are to pics REPORTEDLY taken in Alabama. I offer these as food for thought not as proof or even evidence. In this day of photoshop,it is impossible to varify the validity of the pictures.

http://www.thejump.net/multimedia/cougar/black-panther.htm

http://www.thejump.net/multimedia/cougar/big-black-cat/bc.htm

 

[H&Hhunter]

Leopards and Jaguars with black coats are simply the same speciesl with a recessive gene that causes a melanistic coat. The opposite of an albino. I don't understand how there can be no melanistic jaguars in the Mexico population. Rare, yes, but how can they be non existent?

PS

To clarify what I saw down in S. Texas was not a "black" panther it was a Jaguar and it was dark in color but not black it had spots. I've got a pretty good pile of experience with Mt Lions, (Panthers,Cougars,Catamounts, Pumas) all basically the same thing. What caught my attention initially was the shape of the head and shoulders. Once I put glass on it I saw spots. If it wasn't a Jaguar I have no idea what it could have been. It was NOT however a bobcat. Which is another animal that I've got a pile of experience with.

 

[Roughneck08]

In Wise County, Texas in Bridgeport growing up we had seen two cougars. Walking back from our pond one day was a 12 year old I did see a large black cat up above the hill in the evening time and no I was not mistaken.

Sure enough we lived 15 miles away from the Big Cat Sanctuary and a panther had escaped two days previously. Very frightening moment just armed with a pocket knife and abu garcia rod and reel. We did not hear the follow up if it was found. Cats could escape Wildlife sanctuarys.

Any time livestock died or the random deer that was hit by a truck and too damaged to eat we did take to big cat sanctuary across town.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

the use of "black panther" is nothing more than a casual inaccuracy.

To avoid any further mistake/confusion, "Panther" is a term used genericallythroughout the Southland to describe any and all long tailed wild cats. The name panther is to distinquish between the long tails and other cats,i.e.,bobcat(aka wildcat) or ferals.