Could a Revolver be considered a Semi auto?

[mcb]

If I put a "black-box" around the handgun so the observer could not see the handgun in question and only see the shooter trigger finger and the fact that bullets where going down range how would you observe any differences between a DAO semi-auto and a DAO revolver?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

No more than a Gatling gun was a machine gun. It did not use the energy of the ammunition to operate, it was hand cranked.

Actually, back in the day the Army officially referred to the Gatling gun as a "machine gun." The Colt M1895 (the "potato digger" was an AUTOMATIC machine gun.

 

[chicharrones]

If I put a "black-box" around the handgun so the observer could not see the handgun in question and only see the shooter trigger finger and the fact that bullets where going down range how would you observe any differences between a DAO semi-auto and a DAO revolver?

That's just focuses on the observer's point of view. Not the designer's, or gunsmith's, or knowledgeable shooter's points of view.

Makes me think of an infant that thinks something is gone just because it is hidden from view.

 

[LaneP]

Descriptive lines can be blurred in some instances. The M61A1 Vulcan is a rotary, 6 barrel 20mm cannon classified as "Automatic", but it does not use the action of propellent gasses to cycle and reload itself. It uses the hydraulic system of the aircraft it's mounted on to drive the gun assembly and feed drum. In order to achieve phenomenal cyclic rates of 6,000 rpm, the primers are electrically actuated.

 

[BobWright]

All legal definitiions are somewhat subjective. In common terminology, a "pistol" has the chamber integral with the barrel/bore. A revolver contains multiple chambers with one fixed barrel. This definition eliminates the pepperbox from the classification of revolver.

This is common accepted terminology among gun savvy men.

Bob Wright

 

[buck460XVR]

So, could a revolver be a semi auto also?

Seems folks want to make this much more complicated than necessary. Every so often there is a new thread about a sensational revelation that appeared in the head of the OP about an old and tired subject. The simple answer is, there are subjective and objective definitions. Pistol/handgun/revolver. Clip/mag. Call it what you want. After 3 pages of opinions and definitions by a multitude of posters.....Doesn't change what things really are.

 

[wiscoaster]

...A video of the Webley Fosbery in action....

Oh, crap, I was gonna post that!!

 

[mcb]

That's just focuses on the observer's point of view. Not the designer's, or gunsmith's, or knowledgeable shooter's points of view.

Makes me think of an infant that thinks something is gone just because it is hidden from view.

How would the shooter distinguish the differences in experience? Functionally shooting them the experience and functionality is nearly identical. They pull the double action trigger and the gun goes bang. Nothing different until the have to reload or clear a malfunction.

I not saying a revolver is a semi-auto but off you look at it as a black box devices the distinction is not as clear cut.

Sort of like standing in a room with no window it is impossible for the observer to tell if the room is on the surface of a planet experiencing 1g of gravitational acceleration or out in deep space acceleration at 1g.

From a functional point of view a double action revolver shoots a whole lot like a double action only semi-auto handgun.

 

[BobWright]

Seems folks want to make this much more complicated than necessary. Every so often there is a new thread about a sensational revelation that appeared in the head of the OP about an old and tired subject. The simple answer is, there are subjective and objective definitions. Pistol/handgun/revolver. Clip/mag. Call it what you want. After 3 pages of opinions and definitions by a multitude of posters.....Doesn't change what things really are.

No, but it has contributed to some interesting and thought provoking conversation. What's wrong with that?

Bob Wright

 

[chicharrones]

How would the shooter distinguish the differences in experience? Functionally shooting them the experience and functionality is nearly identical. They pull the double action trigger and the gun goes bang. Nothing different until the have to reload or clear a malfunction.

I not saying a revolver is a semi-auto but off you look at it as a black box devices the distinction is not as clear cut.

Sort of like standing in a room with no window it is impossible for the observer to tell if the room is on the surface of a planet experiencing 1g of gravitational acceleration or out in deep space acceleration at 1g.

From a functional point of view a double action revolver shoots a whole lot like a double action only semi-auto handgun.

That bold part is important. It's more than simply pulling the trigger. The trigger puller should also know how to operate the remainder of the gun and recognize the differences between getting an empty DAO autoloader ready for firing versus getting an empty DAO revolver ready for firing.

Put both of these DAO handguns in that black box and tell the trigger puller to get them loaded and ready to fire. The methods are different because the mechanisms are different.
View attachment 1047717

 

[JohnKSa]

A revolver COULD be a semi-auto. There have been at least two commercial revolvers that I know of that used recoil energy to advance the cylinder. But standard revolvers require the shooter to advance the cylinder manually either via trigger action or by cocking the hammer. That is most certainly not semi-auto operation.

Both do identically the same operation.

The critical factor is WHAT is doing the operation, not that the operations performed are the same. In a semi-auto, the next round is placed under the hammer by the energy of firing the previous cartridge. If the shooter is doing that work (whether via the trigger, or by racking a slide, or by operating a lever, or cocking a hammer) then the gun is not semi-auto.

Well, all good arguments, BUUUUTTTT you still pull the trigger and get one shot with each gun until all the bullets are used up .

What makes the difference is not how the gun appears to operate from the outside, but rather what is putting the next round under the hammer. If it's the shooter (however that is done) then the gun is not semi-auto. It must be done by the energy from the previous cartridge for the gun to be semi-auto.

You keep focusing on the fact that you just keep pulling the trigger until the gun empties, but that's not what makes a gun a semi-auto.

<Speaking softly so the ATF can't hear> A revolver with the trigger held back and 'fanned' could be construed as full auto, since more than one round is fired with each pull of the trigger.

Under the current interpretation of the NFA, that would not meet the definition of a full auto since the user is having to perform a definable action for each time the gun is fired. In that case, the hammer becomes the "trigger" and since it must be manually operated for each shot the gun is not considered NFA.

 

[Jim Watson]

There are a lot of keystrokes spent to stretch terminology in directions it was not meant for.
Cooper Conditions of Readiness are one that I seem to notice. A Glock does not have a "Condition 1" although I read it said so.

 

[Mogas]

Well, after reading all the posts here, it seems that the problem lies with the Definition of semi-auto and Not the end results. Let me explain the best I can. you put a hand gun in your hand and pull the trigger. The gun shoots a bullet each and every time you pull the trigger without you reloading. To me and a very few others here , that hand gun just fired bullets like every Semi auto would. The rub to many of you is HOW the revolver did this and not that it actually does fire a bullet each time you pull a trigger. NOW THE REASON WHY I AM ASKING THIS QUESTION AND STARTED THIS POST. Too many Politician are wanting to ban all semi auto weapons and high capacity magazines also. Would you put it past these same people to try include revolvers as semi autos ? they will reason that the revolver fires bullets the same as a Semi auto? How the revolver shoots like a semi auto makes no difference to them , the fact that it fires 6 high power bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger without reloading, would make it a semi auto. The functionality would make no difference. This is just my opinion, right or wrong...

 

[LocoGringo]

To me, a semi-automatic means that with 1 pull of the trigger the round is fired, ejected from the chamber and the empty chamber is reloaded with the next round until all rounds are fired. There is only 1 chamber per source of ammo.

A revolver does not eject the fired case nor reload an empty chamber through the functioning of the trigger. A revolver can have 5, 6, 7 or more chambers (the cylinder).

 

[LocoGringo]

Well, after reading all the posts here, it seems that the problem lies with the Definition of semi-auto and Not the end results. Let me explain the best I can. you put a hand gun in your hand and pull the trigger. The gun shoots a bullet each and every time you pull the trigger without you reloading. To me and a very few others here , that hand gun just fired bullets like every Semi auto would. The rub to many of you is HOW the revolver did this and not that it actually does fire a bullet each time you pull a trigger. NOW THE REASON WHY I AM ASKING THIS QUESTION AND STARTED THIS POST. Too many Politician are wanting to ban all semi auto weapons and high capacity magazines also. Would you put it past these same people to try include revolvers as semi autos ? they will reason that the revolver fires bullets the same as a Semi auto? How the revolver shoots like a semi auto makes no difference to them , the fact that it fires 6 high power bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger without reloading, would make it a semi auto. The functionality would make no difference. This is just my opinion, right or wrong...

Definitions, terminology and function do not matter to any anti-gun politician. Logic and facts do not matter to them. They want all guns outlawed no matter what. They don't need to understand how things work to try to outlaw them. Hell, McCarthy wanted to outlaw heat shields on shotguns and when she was asked what a heat shield was, she said "the shoulder thing that goes up". Does that sound like someone who can distinguish between semi-auto and revolver...or even someone who cares about the differences?

 

[John_R]

My car has an automatic transmission but since I manually move the lever, is it a manual transmission?

 

[Jim Watson]

One of the car magazines coined the term "manumatic." It didn't stick.

 

[entropy]

If I put a "black-box" around the handgun so the observer could not see the handgun in question and only see the shooter trigger finger and the fact that bullets where going down range how would you observe any differences between a DAO semi-auto and a DAO revolver?

Maybe not, but I'd have to label it "Schrödinger's Handgun".

Well, after reading all the posts here, it seems that the problem lies with the Definition of semi-auto and Not the end results. Let me explain the best I can. you put a hand gun in your hand and pull the trigger. The gun shoots a bullet each and every time you pull the trigger without you reloading. To me and a very few others here , that hand gun just fired bullets like every Semi auto would. The rub to many of you is HOW the revolver did this and not that it actually does fire a bullet each time you pull a trigger. NOW THE REASON WHY I AM ASKING THIS QUESTION AND STARTED THIS POST. Too many Politician are wanting to ban all semi auto weapons and high capacity magazines also. Would you put it past these same people to try include revolvers as semi autos ? they will reason that the revolver fires bullets the same as a Semi auto? How the revolver shoots like a semi auto makes no difference to them , the fact that it fires 6 high power bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger without reloading, would make it a semi auto. The functionality would make no difference. This is just my opinion, right or wrong...

Did you read the definitions in the ATF link I posted?

 

[JohnKSa]

To me and a very few others here , that hand gun just fired bullets like every Semi auto would.

Correct--if one focuses only on the outward similarities.

The rub to many of you is HOW the revolver did this and not that it actually does fire a bullet each time you pull a trigger.

No, it's not that it's a problem for many of us, it's how semi-automatic function is defined. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of definition. The 'auto' in semi-auto is from a Greek word that means SELF. The KEY to semi-automatic function is that the gun loads the chamber/puts a round under the hammer by itSELF.

Semi-automatic function is NOT defined by firing a round every time the trigger is pulled, it is defined by the gun putting the next round under the hammer without need for the shooter to do anything.

Too many Politician are wanting to ban all semi auto weapons and high capacity magazines also. Would you put it past these same people to try include revolvers as semi autos ?

Not without changing the definition of semi-automatic or forming a new legal definition of the term. As it currently stands, the definition of semi-automatic prevents it from applying to conventional revolvers.

they will reason that the revolver fires bullets the same as a Semi auto?

It does NOT. That is the key. The defintion of semi-automatic is NOT firing a bullet every time the trigger is pulled. It has to do with how that next round gets into position to be fired. The fact that a gun fires a bullet with each operation of the trigger is INSUFFICIENT to state that it is semi-automatic.

The functionality would make no difference.

It DOES make a difference. You can't argue that you think they are the same and therefore they are the same. By definition they are different. Unless you change the definitions, they can't be the same.

What you're doing is like saying that salt is white and crystalline and therefore it is the same thing as sugar because sugar is also white and crystalline. Just because, at a superficial level they appear to be similar doesn't actually MAKE them the same thing. Salt is composed of sodium and chorine. Sugar is composed of hydrogen and carbon. They are FUNDAMENTALLY different things even if they appear to be similar at a glance.

You are choosing to focus exclusively on an outward similarity between double-action revolvers and semi-automatic pistols and also choosing to ignore a fundamental difference between the two things. The fact that they seem to operate similarly doesn't make them equivalent.

 

[Hartkopf]

The only way the average American calls a revolver a semi auto, is to twist ones mind to think like an anti gun politician. It’s common knowledge that a revolver is not a semi auto.

That long (usually moderately difficult) trigger pull of the DA revolver is advancing the cylinder.That makes shooting slower and more difficult than the average semi auto.

An anti gun politician doesn’t know or care about the difference. They just want to restrict and remove your right to self defense. The details and facts of this thread will be ignored or twisted but not actually understood by the antis.

 

[entropy]

The revolver does that also by mechanically turning the cylinder.

By the human action of either cocking the hammer (SA) or pulling the trigger (DA). So it is not mechanically operated by recoil, (except the W-F and Mateba 6 Unica) like the M1911, as an example of a semiautomatic magazine-fed pistol.

One of the car magazines coined the term "manumatic." It didn't stick.

Yet they still make them, whatever you want to call them. SWMBO's car has one, whereby pulling the shift handle toward me when it's in "D" upshifts one gear, and pushing it away from me downshifts it one gear. I used it once, to try it out.

 

[Jim Watson]

My BMW has a "bump shift" mode and there are a lot of paddles these days.
It's just the coined name didn't last.

 

[MedWheeler]

mcb writes:

Sort of like standing in a room with no window it is impossible for the observer to tell if the room is on the surface of a planet experiencing 1g of gravitational acceleration or out in deep space acceleration at 1g.

That doesn't affect the room's actual placement, though. Thinking that it might be in deep space when in fact it actually is rooted on Earth doesn't make it "become" in deep space.

Mistaking a long-haired dude for a woman from a distance doesn't make him one.

Mistaking a concealed-from-view revolver fired by Jerry Miculek for a semi-automatic pistol doesn't make it one.

 

[Mogas]

The only way the average American calls a revolver a semi auto, is to twist ones mind to think like an anti gun politician. It’s common knowledge that a revolver is not a semi auto.

That long (usually moderately difficult) trigger pull of the DA revolver is advancing the cylinder.That makes shooting slower and more difficult than the average semi auto.

An anti gun politician doesn’t know or care about the difference. They just want to restrict and remove your right to self defense. The details and facts of this thread will be ignored or twisted but not actually understood by the antis.

those pesky anti gun people! I remember when the M1-A got banned as being an Assault weapon. So the manufacture just removed the Bayonet lug and the Assault weapon was magically changed back into a hunting rifle. I wonder how many people lives they think they saved by the removal of the bayonet lug? Anyway that is the thinking process the 2 nd amendment is up against. BTW go look on youtube at fast draw world record holders on how fast they can fire a revolver. they are faster than any semi auto I have ever seen fired. (accurate too)

 

[BobWright]

After all (maybe) is said and done, here are the parameters with which I am most familiar, and to which I subscribe:

PISTOL: A handgun having the chamber integral with the barrel. Normally one barrel, but may have multiple barrels. Pistols may be single shot, manual repeaters, of autoloaders. Autoloaders fire, extract, and eject the fired cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge. It may, or may not, cock the action.

REVOLVER: A handgun having its chambers located in a revolving cylinder and having one barrel. Loading the cylinder with fresh cartridges and ejecting the fired cartridges is done manually.

PEPPERBOX: A handgun having multiple barrels with integral chambers so designed as to rotate the cluster of barrels to fire (hopefully) one shot with each rotation of the barrel into firing position.

These are the definitions I've heard and used all of my life.

Bob Wright