Could the Army be used to confiscate guns?

[CapnMac]

Hard not to have these sorts of conversations while at LoAC seminars. Duke brings up a salient point--one which seems to derail professional discussions on this topic.
The "why" of that is subtle, though. The conflict of 1861-65 was not a true civil war. CSA did not wish to overthrow USA, only to not be forced back into Union.

The case being considered here is of an all-inclusive federal law and a suspension of posse comitatus, which could pose a very real situation where parties would have to choose between what would then be lawful orders and the morality that made those orders lawful.

Now, an executive directive, or similar federal mandate (say an arbitrary ruling by AGUSA), then, that is some different. Even under martial law declarations, then the underlying foundations of the Constitution remain.

Sadly this gets to much thinking well "above pay grade" you start questioning whether a given civilian authority is allowed to declare martial law, or that the rules promulgated under martial law are just or mete.

Personally, I have to hope it never comes down to that. Bad enough engaging in OEM planning for asteroid strikes, hurricanes, zombieapocalypsae and the like . . . <sigh>

 

[Hungry Seagull]

CaptnMac, R.E. Lee was offered Command of what was then the Army of Potomac and had the potential assignment to go down to Richmond and take care of the Confederate Government that was then forming under J. Davis. The individual States felt that thier rights were being underfoot and thier way of life was economically threatened as well.

R.E. Lee decided that he loved Virginia more and did not take the Commision offered to him. He did not make this decision lightly because he has had provided MUCH valuable service to the Nation just about his entire Military Service up to that time.

He lost his Arlington Home which is now part of the US Government and stood to be at risk like all the other Confederates who decided to fight.

In some cases, the war is to divide families on a basic level. It was brother against brother as happened to the 29th Infantry which is why they carry the blue and grey logo as thier Unit Shield. Other places like Gettysburg at a place called Culp's Hill, A family was to experience loss from the Southern Army from one of thier family members serving there under Lee and at the same time suffer loss on the Northern as well as having thier home and lands part of a battlefield.

Lincoln shrewdly disarmed the Baltimore Police and placed certain Maryland and Local Politicians persons under arrest so that Maryland cannot legally move to join the South and Isolate DC or even move to join the North and become such a target for the south. So the people in Maryland mostly Germans who were either Farmers, loggers, Factory workers and beer had to choose both sides or no side at all.

There would be many many more things far beyond what I can write here. So I leave it here.

I plead for patience from the Moderators because during that time, Naval Stores, Arsenals and other places with weapons accessible to Citizens, Militia and Regulars (Aka Active Duty) were seriously threatened and in some cases destroyed or confiscated for use by either side. Most particularly also transportation systems like the B&O Railroad were also under attack constantly.

 

[Blakenzy]

In theory no, but in reality yes.

I don't mean to make anyone angry, but let's face it, the Army will most likely do as it is told. It's what the organization is meant to do, and what it's members are conditioned to do. Following orders is given higher value than questioning authority and learning constitutional law...

Considering that, I don't think any US soldier in his right mind would follow an order to kill kindergartners crossing the street w/o authorization, but given the right lie from the POTUS and the right label on the target citizens(terrorists), I can easily envision occupation and widespread violation of citizens constitutional rights, after all it's just to keep the "Homeland" safe, right? I'm sorry to say that I don't believe soldiers are trained enough to determine whether what they are doing is right or wrong.

 

[Zoogster]

Watch this gun confiscation video and ask yourself if you could rely on members of the military to disobey orders. As they setup checkpoints to disarm, patrol streets, and enter homes with orders to disarm any who are armed. (Obviously using lethal force against those who resist with arms.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo

Many of them were uncomfortable, but they will set thier consciences aside and follow orders.

"it is surreal, you just never expect to do this in your own country"

But they continue to do the "necessary" task.

"Many would rather be in Iraq..."

But they will follow orders.

"walking up and down these streets you don't want to have to think about the stuff your going to have to do..."

"You mean shoot an American?"

"Yeah."

Could the Army be used?
Sir, yes sir!
The standing army could be used.
They would follow orders, the resulting civil chaos would likely further allow them internal justification that it was necessary to establish control.

Over time morale would suffer, sucide rates would likely increase in the armed service as they reflected on what they "had to do", but they would have done it.


Don't think citizens should be armed with the type of arms that can fight a military force?

 

[Duke of Doubt]

CapnMac: "The case being considered here is of an all-inclusive federal law and a suspension of posse comitatus, which could pose a very real situation where parties would have to choose between what would then be lawful orders and the morality that made those orders lawful."

Interestingly, and unlike the analogous or inanalogous situation in 1860, virtually no Army installations containing training or combat formations remain in "blue states." The importance of this cannot be overstated. West Point, Fort Drum, Fort Dix et cetera may be subsumed in Blue, but the lands containing Fort Hard Knox, Fort Betting, Fort Braggadocio, Fort Ignorant Bliss, Fort Relaxin' Jackson, Fort Huck-a-chunka, Fort Lost-in-the-Woods, et al are Red as Red can be.

 

[punkndisorderly]

The US military has been used against it's own people before. Google the "bonus army". Not only were these civilians fellow countrymen, they were fellow veterans.

 

[QuietEarp]

I would think that if guns were made illegal nationally without a Constitutional amendment then any law restricting the use of armed forces on US soil would be quite easy to violate. Would the individual soldiers resist such orders? I doubt it but I could be wrong. I don't think that the soldiers confiscating guns would be viewed as friendly or even as Americans by many citizens because of the gross violation of the Constitution and its amendments.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It is pretty clear and should such confiscation be attempted it would be a sure sign of the end of a "free State."

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Could the Army be used to confiscate guns?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a law was passed that resulted in gun confiscation, could the US Army be used to enforce the law and collect the weapons?

Nope. The Army will be busy guarding the borders and seacoasts to keep the outsiders outside while the rest of us shoot it out on the inside.

When the smoke clears, the Army will meet the new boss.

Woody

 

[Duke of Doubt]

punkndisorderly: "The US military has been used against it's own people before. Google the "bonus army". Not only were these civilians fellow countrymen, they were fellow veterans."

They were also organized Reds. This gets left out of the story ever since, and that is no accident. That's why MacArthur and Patton were so eager to drive them out of Washington. They weren't trying to arrest them.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Watch this gun confiscation video and ask yourself if you could rely on members of the military to disobey orders. As they setup checkpoints to disarm, patrol streets, and enter homes with orders to disarm any who are armed. (Obviously using lethal force against those who resist with arms.)

Watched the video. Didn't see any US Soldiers confiscating weapons.

 

[jimbeam]

Put two and two together. Obama stating "we cannot rely on the military , we need a Civilian National Security Force" and the twenty million dollars funded to Gaza for "immigration and migration".

Where do you think these people will go? If the other countries in the middle east wanted them and their arms, they would have been there long ago. By the way, my two and two equals four-warned.

 

[taprackbang]

The Posse Comitatus act prohibits the U.S. Military...

Not anymore.. Our 'wonderful, conservative' former President Bush made sure that Canadians could patrol American streets and American soldiers could patrol Canadian streets.

http://current.com/items/89857653/canadian_troops_to_patrol_us_cities_in_civil_emergency.htm

Isn't that lovely??

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Last time Canadians tried to "patrol the streets" of Aroostook County, we Mainers had a thing or two to say about it.

"Say it loudah, say it proudah, say it with powdah!"

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Forgot the chowdah.

 

[CapnMac]

Fort Hard Knox, Fort Betting, Fort Braggadocio, Fort Ignorant Bliss, Fort Relaxin' Jackson, Fort Huck-a-chunka, Fort Lost-in-the-Woods, et al are Red as Red can be.

Hey, you left Useless off that list <g>
Not sure how Pt Hueneme, Ft Ord, or the elevnty AFB in FL fit in to that matrix <g>

 

[ar10]

Of course they can and did it in the past. Veterans marched on Washington regarding benefits US army called out to quell the "riot". Coal miner strike in KY against corrupt sheriff and coal company. President dispatch Army, (3000 I think, and they were not NG troops) to disperse the "Red Necks"
BTW: Red Neck is not a derogatory term. The miners on strike identified themselves with a red bandanna around their necks.

In a nutshell laws, even constitutional law can be changed at any time depending on the circumstances.

 

[Sand Rat]

lenn Beck said there are now 15 % of Americans have no faith in God, twice as much from 1990....

What IN THE WORLD does that have to do with arms confiscation or gun rights?

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Sand Rat, it is a pointing out of the systematic failure of our Society on several levels. The Soldier or Marine 50 years ago is not the Soldier or Marine today. Pretty close, but not the same.

In fact, gang influences inside the USA may provide the Military with a Objective to fight if necessary someday. Im not referring specifically to the current problem with our southern neighbor, but Im talking about Society breaking down layer by layer.

Recruit level of... moral or... lack of inhibitations (Spelling?) will be more easily molded or "Obedient" to commands and probably not have a pair that they will need to challenge unlawful orders.

 

[Tommygunn]

punkndisorderly: "The US military has been used against it's own people before. Google the "bonus army". Not only were these civilians fellow countrymen, they were fellow veterans."

They were also organized Reds. This gets left out of the story ever since, and that is no accident. That's why MacArthur and Patton were so eager to drive them out of Washington. They weren't trying to arrest them

By this comment, I assume you mean the bonus marchers were communists? I've never heard that before.

 

[Colonel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

Watched the video. Didn't see any US Soldiers confiscating weapons.

So...who were the guys carrying M16s and wearing BDUs and Oakleys? Mouseketeers?

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Tommygunn: "By this comment, I assume you mean the bonus marchers were communists? I've never heard that before."

The American Communist Party sent John T. Pace to Washington with specific instruction to incite riot.

The following link is to President Hoover's statement on the Justice Department investigation of the incident and its communist leadership, as well as Attorney General William D. Mitchell's detailed report. That report makes very interesting reading:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=23227

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

So...who were the guys carrying M16s and wearing BDUs and Oakleys? Mouseketeers?

could you tell me where in that video you saw soldiers confiscating guns? i watched it couldn't see any

 

[Rockwell1]

virtually no Army installations containing training or combat formations remain in "blue states"

You seem to have forgot Ft Carson Colorado which, with the inclusion of the Piñon Cañon manuever site, has the largest square training acreage of any post (including Hood) in CONUS.

You Also seem to have forgot Ft. Lewis Wa.

Percy Taplet, 73, said the National Guard and state police confiscated his shotgun when they arrived to tell him to leave his house. When he tried to get his gun back this week, police told him he would have to contact state police.

For those who are going to say "The Guard isn't the same as the Army. " These were Federalized Oklahoma National Guardsmen. Or, to use the proper terminology Active Duty U.S. ARMY troops.

 

[Dirtpile]

I would think that if guns were made illegal nationally without a Constitutional amendment then any law restricting the use of armed forces on US soil would be quite easy to violate.

Exactly. Just look at the gross voilation of the Fourth Ammendment that is the "Patriot Act."
On a side note. IF it did happen can we call to arms fast enough? And ask yourself if you are ready to fight for your rights. Hopefully it won't come to that, but the coming storm COULD be a lot worse than 1994.

 

[sernv99]

I don't know why the fear mongering against the US military, the men and women who protect this country. Otherwise all of you would be talking Russian or Chinese or bowing to a minaret 5 times a day.

besides, you can stockpile all the high cap rifles and ammo you want. I place my bets with a platoon of Airborne Rangers or Marines anyday of the week to take out a bunch of fear mongers with a few AK's or AR's with thousand of rounds of ammo stockpiled, soldiers and marines who actually have real time combat experience going up against folks with a heck of a lot more firepower than your tricked out AR-15 or AK . IF, and it's a BIG IF, the US military decided to turn on it's own countrymen, you really think any of you can resist and hold out for even 30 minutes? LMAO I mean how many in here actually have served in the military? If you did, how many have served in a combat line unit, recieved training that remotely resembles some kind of infantry training? Playing paintball in the woods doesn't count