crime rates of CCWers vs crime rates of police?
- Thread starter Igloodude
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Igloodude
Member
Thanks for the helpful responses. 
I just want to make clear, my request is absolutely not cop-bashing (or at any rate, it certainly isn't intended that way) - I'm looking for numbers to in order to make the point that a fellow with a CCW is at least as law-abiding as a fellow with a badge and thus no more dangerous to innocent people, not to knock the badge-wearers.
Texas as of about 2000 had 200K or so CHLs, out of about 15mil 18+ adults (1.3%), both figures found elsewhere on their state website.
Thanks for the idea about contacting DOJ, and the thought that the numbers I eventually do get might include administrative personnel.
I just want to make clear, my request is absolutely not cop-bashing (or at any rate, it certainly isn't intended that way) - I'm looking for numbers to in order to make the point that a fellow with a CCW is at least as law-abiding as a fellow with a badge and thus no more dangerous to innocent people, not to knock the badge-wearers.
Texas as of about 2000 had 200K or so CHLs, out of about 15mil 18+ adults (1.3%), both figures found elsewhere on their state website.
Thanks for the idea about contacting DOJ, and the thought that the numbers I eventually do get might include administrative personnel.
D
Deleted member 66305
Guest
TAB said:
Well, I really don't know what factors a LEO uses in determining whether or not to cite for a moving violation, or issue a warning. But if it's not expressly forbidden (and occupation is not a protected class), I don't have a problem with it being a factor in the officer's decision.
highorder
Member
that is likely caused by LEO shootings where more rounds are expended, as well as a greater % of rounds fired being 12ga. shotgun rounds...
Old Dog
Member
Gee, could this be due the fact that police officers are probably a hundred or so times more likely to be involved in an actual shooting situation than a "mere civilian." Meaningless "statistic."
Wow, several posts this time before the hackneyed "thin blue line" phrase cropped up. For those of you not in the LE business, you should probably know that the "thin blue line" is vanishing, much like Model 10s in holsters, bubblegum machine lights on the roofs of patrol cars, the days of Reed, Malloy and Joe Friday ... liability issues, lawsuits, video cameras in the hands of citizens, dash-cams, civilian oversight commissions, the CYA mentality, instant news on the internet and cable television, politician police chiefs/commissioners/administrators and a totally new breed of street cop ... But if you want to believe in TTBL, have at it; makes for more entertaining internet discussion.
Y'all want to ignore the fact that most crime is not committed using a firearm and is not firearm related, thus any media reportage is not normally going to include the fact that the person committing the crime does or does not have a CHL/CPL/CWP. Further, what licenses a person may have been issued by a state is not necessarily going to be included in any statistical database if the crime was not gun-related.
Gee, start a post, later throw in the caveat that you don't intend any LEO-bashing, yet the desired result is to demonstrate that cops commit more crimes than CCW-permit holders? What is the real purpose of this thread?
I was looking for the Number of LEOs in my State, as several had been busted for DWI in recent months, to compare it with the number of CHP holders busted for alcohol while Carrying (2 of about 3,000)...... What I found was at least 1 of our 49 state senators had at least 2 DWIs in the last 18 months......this from the very same Legislature that says average Joe Citizen cannot be trusted to wear his concealed handgun to Church! Methinks some projection is involved there, somewhere........
pbearperry
Member
The real purpose of this thread Old Dog is to bash cops.Its happening every day here.The problem is everyone is tired of being screwed by the government and the cops are the most visible part of the government so they get the brunt of everyones frustration.You can'y unload on your Senators and Congressmen because they are hidden away catching last call somewhere.lol
Igloodude
Member
The real purpose of this thread is to get usable statistics that I can show people virulently opposed to the dismantling of victim disarmament zones that CCW holders walking around with guns is no more dangerous than police officers walking around with guns. Because these people have a preconceived notion in their mind that "civilians" walking around with guns (they don't generally make a distinction as to CCW permit status) are clueless, have hair-trigger tempers, spray bullets wildly, and are one bad day away from turning into mass-murderers themselves, whereas they would readily agree to security guards or sworn officers patrolling the zone.
I want to point out to them that CCW holders are no more likely to be a danger to them than the police officers whose presence they value, thus I am looking for statistics on how often the police commit violent crime compared to how often CCW holders commit violent crime, in as apples-to-apples a way as possible.
Does that help clear things up?
Edit: And as Old Dog notes, CCW status and "whether there was a gun involved" are frequently not broken out separately in the statistics that I've been able to find so far, but if they are broken out that makes the stats that much more useful in making my point.
I want to point out to them that CCW holders are no more likely to be a danger to them than the police officers whose presence they value, thus I am looking for statistics on how often the police commit violent crime compared to how often CCW holders commit violent crime, in as apples-to-apples a way as possible.
Does that help clear things up?
Edit: And as Old Dog notes, CCW status and "whether there was a gun involved" are frequently not broken out separately in the statistics that I've been able to find so far, but if they are broken out that makes the stats that much more useful in making my point.
xsquidgator
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I disagree. The point is that many antis argue that only the police should be allowed to have guns. Demonstrating with facts that CCW holders commit significantly fewer crimes than sworn officers goes a long way towards defeating that argument.
I looked up the figures in FL recently and since 1987 when FL went shall-issue, something like 1.2 million (IIRC) permits have been issued and only about 4,000 revoked, whatever the numbers were I do recall for sure that the rate of criminal activity among people (criminal activity severe enough to cause the CWP to be revoked and not reinstated) who had CWPs was about 0.2% over the last 20 years.
Surely just asking this doesn't make me anti-police, but what IS the crime rate among sworn officers in FL over the last 20 years? If it was down to 0.2% would there even BE an internal affairs department in most jurisdications? And I am not bashing cops, certainly not any individuals, I'm simply asking a question about the crime rates among the populations of CWP permit holders and of sworn officers.
You need to work on the "I've got my CCW permit and the criminals better look out" segment of the CCW community. One of the big fears the public has, is that there are untrained people out there who are going to take the law into their own hands.
There is plenty of evidence that passage of shall issue CCW doesn't lead to an increase in armed encounters. But this is another area where we are our own worse enemy.
Jeff
EricTheBarbarian
Member
That is because it is considered a crime to carry a firearm without a license in most places regardless of what you are going to do with it.
It's hard to get any sort of reliable statistics regarding something like that. How many police have been arrested for carrying concealed while off duty?
It would be similarly hard to find info on police officers who have committed traffic violations vs those licensed to operate a motor vehicle. How many police have gotten a speeding ticket this year?
I bet it would be close to zero.From that you could say that police officers are the best drivers in the world because they never get traffic tickets.
It makes it very hard to keep accurate score, when only one team is doing the counting. Two groups judged by different standards
You would think you would be able to find information on violent crimes though.
pbearperry
Member
The reason you could never get any accurate figures of crimes regarding any group of people is because they are not listed that way.Crime figures are listed by the actual type of crime and the vacinity,not by job title.So just do as everyone else in this group does,throw any figure out and say its true because you have been told that.lol That seems to work for quite a few in this forum so why stop now?
EricTheBarbarian
Member
Actually,if i remember right, in many of my criminal justice classes they had large amounts of information on offenders, including but not limited to income, race, gender, nationality, and education level. The information was used for research purposes to see risk factors or trends with crime. I would think that occupation would be one of those things that they keep account of.
The information is there somewhere, but how to find it is probably not as easy as a simple google search.
Deavis
Member
that is why we have laws and courts. If either of those groups cross the line, throw them in jail and be done with it. You can't legislate away stupidity and, often, it seems that is is encouraged
Honestly, I think the statistics you are looking for won't be very useful. For general crimes, I can see that working out as long as you match the populations you compare in more than simply job title. In other words, there could very well be a correlation between CHL, police, and normal people for burglary when the subject is poor. So if you population of CHL holders are all, say, making over 100k a year and the police department in that area makes 30k you'd skew your results. However, comparing shootings and the like would be tough. Police can't always descelate a situation or walk away like a CHL holder can so you artificially inflate the statistics to make them look like they shoot more often. More incidents means more chances for a mistake.
The other thing is that dealing with small populations like sub 2% isn't easy. Your results, from a purely mathematical position, aren't always statistically significant or rquire you to branch out into statistics geared towards making predictions for small sample sizes.
csmkersh
Member
igloodud said:
as of Dec 31, 2007
Active License Holders: 288,909
Certified Instructors: 1,639
Active License Holders: 288,909
Certified Instructors: 1,639
Here's the pdf file from Tx DPS
police are 11 times more likely to shoot the wrong person than a mere civilian.
This statistic doesn't take into account exposure to hazardous situations. Do you have the stat for how many hazardous situations CCW people are subjected to vs LEOs? .
This statistic doesn't take into account exposure to hazardous situations. Do you have the stat for how many hazardous situations CCW people are subjected to vs LEOs? .
Last edited:
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The OP is seeking information sources, not personal anecdotes and opinions about cops.
Stick to the subject!
, Art
Stick to the subject!
, Artmacadore
Member
Now that is fascinating!!!
Easily explained. Private citizens do not place themselves in positions where mistakes like that are likely to be made. A private citizen usually doesn't have to worry if the person jumping into the fight is an undercover or off duty officer, or an armed citizen trying to help. The encounters a private citizen has are usually one on one and it's usually very clear who the bad guy is. Snyder is making an apples and oranges comparison.
As for crime by occupation, people of all occupations can be criminals. I don't think the data you are looking for will be easy to find. It's not reported on the Uniform Crime Report. The jail here just recently began asking occupation with the new booking software they are using.
Another problem you will find is that all of that information about occupation is based entirely upon what the criminal says. There is no verification. I don't think any information you'd find would be reliable enough to draw any conclusions from.
You might try the Police Standards and Training Boards for information on police officers, they might release numbers to you. But they would probably only have numbers on convictions that were serious enough to cause loss of certification.
I just don't know where you are are going to get reliable numbers.
Jeff
I've read of several cases in Florida, where an LEO used his service gun in the commision of a murder.
Just last year, a Sheriff's deputy shot and murdered his wife and another deputy, then took his own life.
I've never heard of something similar happening with a concealed weapon permit holder with his own carry gun.
Just last year, a Sheriff's deputy shot and murdered his wife and another deputy, then took his own life.
I've never heard of something similar happening with a concealed weapon permit holder with his own carry gun.
357WheelGun
Member
Bad statistics there. An individual person's likelihood of committing a crime cannot be accurately predicted from his statistical grouping. As an analogy, last year I traded in a Mustang GT for a Volvo sedan. My insurance rate dropped like a rock, but I am individually no more or less likely to be involved in an accident just because I have changed from one car to another. Statistically, the overall group of Volvo sedan drivers is less likely to be in an accident than the overall group of Mustang GT drivers, but my individual risk has not changed.
As a group people with a carry permit are less likely to commit a crime, but that cannot be applied on an individual level and still be statistically valid. Statistics can only predict the general tendencies of a group as a whole; it is not able to make scientifically accurate predictions about individual members of a group.
macadore
Member
Nonetheless, armed citizens are less likely to shoot the wrong person than the police. It seems society would be safer if everyone carried rather than depending entirely on police for their protection.
Snyder is making a police and civilian comparison. Therefore, the point is valid.
csmkersh
Member
Jeff White said:
Not really, unless you want to plaqy the game were mere citizens are untrained and the cops are highly trained professionals.
What we've really seen in the last few years that police are given carte blanche to use deadly force without any real reason. This is a twofold problem:
- poor training.
- held to a much laxer standard when using deadly force than Joe Schmoe.
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