Criminals in Home Invasion Identify themselves as Local Police !

[Elza]

Do I think I would take out a SWAT team? No. I never suggested such a thing. (Well, actually I could. However it is highly impractical and far more illegal. If the cops didn’t get me the state certainly would.) I’ve only said that cops acting in such a manner are basically thugs hiding behind their badges and SWAT entries are proof of this. (If the LEO’s don’t like my opinion T.S. I couldn’t care less.) It puts us serfs in a position of not knowing which group of criminals is at the door. As such, I would tend to shoot at any intruder. Would this get me killed by the SWAT thugs? Not much doubt. I stay away from the world of fantasy. If you wish to try to shift the spotlight away by placing me in your ‘fantasy world’ then knock yourself out.

On the other hand, the LEO’s are quick to defend their brother cops regardless of what they do. Stomping the family cat in front of the children, slapping a pregnant woman around, all of the “brave acts” perpetrated by cops in the name of “law and order”.

Before slamming the folks here about their thoughts and concerns perhaps you should spend some time looking at the reasons for these concerns. But, that would require a hard look at the actions of LEO’s. We can’t have that! It ‘might’ put the LEO community in a bad light.

I’ll end with one question. The following statement was made:

Professionals have plans to deal with dogs. This includes cops and criminals.

My dogs will have me wide awake before you get to the house much less in it. They sleep inside. Just how, pray tell, are you going to ‘deal’ with my dogs? Shoot through the walls with a Ma Duce on your APC?

 

[pacodelahoya]

Deltagunner said

If you never been involved in a surprise attack, in the light of day or night, your pretty much living in a fantasy of winning either way.

Who said anything about winning, I just want some trigger time too!

There exists a number of key board rangers that need to enlist and try the real world.

Too old now, did 8 years many moons ago, can I still play?

you can K.M.A.

A very well thought out and articulated post, let me guess, you are leo also?

 

[Elza]

DeltaGunner: This forum is pretty ridiculous and should be shut down.

Why? Just because there are those that disagreed with you?

DeltaGunner: There exists a number of key board rangers that need to enlist and try the real world.

Sorry but I, too, am over the hill. Viet Nam vet. I’m just a bit senior to be running around in the jungle (or sand dunes as the case may be.)

DeltaGunner: Gripe about this guys, and remember if your ever in the neighbor hood you can K.M.A.

I think that pacodelahoya said it all regarding this one.

 

[Sindawe]

This forum is pretty ridiculous and should be shut down.

If you don't like the forum, you don't have to participate or even read the threads you find "ridiculous".

Elza's comments sum up my views in a much more verbose fashion that I usually use. If door kickers are criminal bad guys, I may succeed in driving them off. Thats a win for me. If door kickers are LEO buffoons at the wrong address, I'll 'prolly not survive the encounter. But just taking one of said buffoons with me counts as an even score in my book.

We are all dead men & women in the end. The only question is how we go out. I choose to go down fighting, rather than groveling on the floor.

As I've said in the past. If LEOs think they have good cause to search my home. Be civil, knock and present the warrant and we can fight the issue out in a court of law. Act like thugs and you'll be treated like thugs.

 

[thexrayboy]

Per Jeff White

If you don't engage in criminal activity or associate with those who do, your chances of being the victim of a mistaken police raid are somewhat less then your chances of being struck by a meteorite.

Per the NYPD civilian complaint board....in 2006 in NYC there was more than 15 raids on homes that were mistaken addresses. Per the Cato research group since the late 1980s more than 40 people have died in raids by police on the wrong home and more than a thousand identified instances of police raiding the wrong home have been identified on a national scale.

Since 1990 no verifiable instance of a person being struck by a meteorite has occurred. There is one noted instance in 1954 of a person being struck by a meteor that had ricocheted off of something and one unverified claim in 2004 in England of a person being struck. To date no verified actual direct hits have been recorded.

The chances of an honest citizen being the victim of a mistaken police search is small....but it is vastly larger now than it was 20 years ago. In two more decades it may become a virtual certainty. A discussion of how to deal with this unlikely but ever increasing probability is not fantasy. However realistic preparations should be more along the lines of dull boring and expensive unseen preparation, not Ramboesque fantasy about winning a shootout with a gang of armed invaders at O dark thirty.

Having said that the evidence is clear. Raids by LEO on innocents is an increasing possibility in the JBT driven mindset currently ruling government. Citizens can and have successfully defended themselves against such illegal activity. However we should be taking a page from the Vegas odds makers and stacking the deck in our favor. That would mean making your domecile
much harder to gain entry into without giving evidence of that preparation to those surveilling it from the outside while planning a midnite visit.

 

[cpileri]

i wonder

I know a number of very decent guys who are "LEO's". What I wonder is if they dont think much about the chances of and consequences of a wrong-address-dynamic-entry? Sort of like some bad doctors don't think a small percentages of wrong-site-surgeries is a big deal? (pls dont start on that topic in this thread!)

But here's my thinking: maybe its an indoctrination kind of thing. Consider how everyone refers to themselves- as a "Law Enforcement Officer". That term is bothersome precisely because it describes their self-image.

Consider the fellow who is employed as a 'Peace Officer': he exists to keep the peace. Peace is a noble cause, and is what most of us want deep down inside. he uses his skills and his badge to keep the peace and that is why the Peace Officer earns the respect of his community.

Then consider the fellow who defines his job as 'Police': he keeps an eye on things, watches out for law-breakers. In essence, he keeps order. Order is pretty peaceful, so the gradual focus away from peace and toward 'policing' was tolerated by the populace and accepted by the well-intentioned folks applying for the job.

OK, so now we have the guys who describe themselves as Law Enforcement Officers: a very important line is crossed here. Now, the officers exist to enforce the law however it is written. It makes no stipulation as to wether or not the law is just, or right, or erodes personal freedoms, or has the potential to damage the innocent, or gives special privileges to the LEO's; they just enforce it. I say it is a dangerous mindset to describe yourself using this term. it is the equivalent of saying, "the law allows me to raid the home of the innocent a certain percentage of the time and if I kill the innocent i was acting in the line of duty according to policy and therefore i will do it."
"I was just enforcing the law"
'i was just doing my job."
"I was just following orders."
Dangerous.

What's left?
Well, i am sure a new less-evil-sounding term for Jack Booted Thug, or "Sicilian Heavy", or "some Muscle", or something new and creative to describe a guy who is paid by the gov't to deliberately be brutal to the citizens- legally- will be invented when and if that time comes.
This next line is moving more toward 'pre-emptive violence': beat up, maybe but rarely kill, a few citizens for nothing much other than to keep the rest in line.

What's next?
The only things left are after the above are governemnt paid assassins/hit-men, death squads, etc. Just begin an outright campaign of terror against the citizenry to keep them wherever you want them- and too afraid to even say anything about it. Remember, everything Hitler did was LEGAL.

Just my thoughts, though I think about my role in it everyday.
C-

 

[Elza]

cpileri: The only things left are after the above are government paid assassins/hit-men, death squads, etc. Just begin an outright campaign of terror against the citizenry to keep them wherever you want them- and too afraid to even say anything about it. Remember, everything Hitler did was LEGAL.

A most interesting and enlightening dissertation. And close enough to home to make it rather scary.

Just remember one of the primary reasons Hitler was able to accomplish this: he first disarmed the citizens!

 

[ETCss Phil McCrackin]

To start with, I figure that if an unexpected, (and ultimately unjust) raid takes place, you have to assume that it's bad guys, (since you know better than most the legality of your lifestyle) and therefore, engage them (with an extra large helping of luck!) like criminals. If they're cops in the wrong and they, or you, or both die in the process then it is the epitome of a senseless tragedy.

However, I must part with my internet brethren as far as believing in the usefulness of the "no-knock" SWAT warrant. This is based on:

A. The fact that "no-knocks" are pretty hard to get and require a fair amount of justification in most areas.

B. As ugly as they are, the fact is, they save lives. Both the lives of the officers and the criminals being arrested. Those of you who hate the idea of SWAT and the "no-knock", what would you have John law do? Roll up to the home of a known violent offender, or the door of a meth lab with a black and white and a smile... "Hello Mr. Cracka Killa, I'm Officer John Q. Law of the Nowhere Police Dept. Would you please come outside so I can arrest you? Please?"

Do "no-knocks" and SWAT teams get overused by departments trying to justify their budgets? Yes. Is it a crying shame that there is a need for them at all? Yes. Are they an unholy symbol of the apocalypse and a tool of the GS-13 devil? I would say, not so much...

 

[thekomet]

important questions

I do not understand the vitriol that Jeff used in his replies. My sense of the intent of the other posters is that all things being equal, a person or persons breaking into your home should be considered to have criminal intent until proven otherwise, especially siince the the police do not seem to make these mistakes very often. I certainly appreciate how the police put their lives on the line to protect us, and I have several friends who are police officers.

To my way of thinking there are some important questions unanswered:

1. Is it reasonable to assume someone breaking down your door is a bad guy, all things being equal? It seems time is of the essence here and a call to the police could mean the difference between my family and I surviving.

2. Since the police seem to rarely make mistakes in serving no-knock warrents, is it more likely that this scenario will involve bad guys than good guys?

3. Specifically fo Jeff or his supporters, is there ever a time where the average civilian could defend his home against an invader with training/planning? That the odds are stacked against you is not a reason give up when the stakes are so high.

My purpose for posting this is to learn, not antagonize. Over the past several months I have read these forums regularly and have been impressed by the thoughtfulness and civility in the great majority of the posts.

 

[larry_minn]

Doc2005 are you in MN? There was a small town not that terribly far from me that did a similar thing. Warned the Police Cheif/indians and then "released" them. Lock/stock and barrel. I never had any (real) trouble with them but met enough people who did. The older folks didn't dare drive in town due to harassment. I got to know one of the Officers (slightly) and mentioned it to him. Basicly I suggested that there were a lot of people that had parents in town who wouldn't be happy about their parents being treated that way.
IMO all one can assume (if you try to obey the law) is anyone attacking you is a threat. Use the advantages you have to increase your chance of survival. Motion sensors/alarms/ dogs/ solid doors/deadbolts/interior doors/locked/stairs/etc.

 

[DeltaGunner]

May Be:
1.leo
2. 8 Year Special Op's Usmc Vet
3. Undercover Atf Or Congressional Spy, Collecting In-fo On What Kind Of Whack Jobs Will Provide Gun Owner Mind Set To Support The Next Weapons Ban......
You Choose

 

[DKSuddeth]

let there be no misunderstanding...

In the event of either a criminal home invasion or a SWAT raid on my home, I don't expect to be the last man standing in pile of ejected brass with buckets of blood and blue paint on my face. I fully expect that in either incident, I will end up dead, but I seriously hope to take at least one, and hopefully more, with me.

The reasoning behind this is that the LEO organizations will not change anything at all no matter the cost, unless they end up killing a few more elderly black ladies because it's apparent nobody gives a damn about white families or kids of any color. It's also very apparent that the courts have no interest in holding LEO agencies or the city governments accountable for any actions or results in wrong raids or deaths resulting from them. Even the highly vaunted USSC has completely and utterly disjoined itself from any responsibility it had to the people and has gone to great lengths to support government actions whether right or wrong. The politicians will only give lip service insofar as it will get the heat off of their backs but I've not seen any but the rarest LOCAL (read that as pop. centers less than 10,000) actions to hold LEO agencies accountable, which only result in firings because the courts have already set precedent on no accountability, legally or financially.

Hundreds more will die, either by the hands of criminals pretending to be police, or by the police themselves, nothing will change unless it's made too dangerous for them to risk it. JMHO anyway.

 

[DigitalWarrior]

Oh for Goodness sake people.

I am not interesting in contributing to actions that result in the death of my family.

I want to find out what the heck I should do if I hear a bump in the night quickly followed by a crack and the door coming in.


I do nothing illegal, but I do run a tor server. This might be mistaken for illegal activity by some agencies. I also have a bunch of computer equipment and give to a lot of charities, so someone might also mistake me for a rich guy too.

It sounds to me (and Law Enforcement Officers especially, please correct me if I am wrong), no matter what is said (police, we gonna getchu sukka, etc.) , if I have time to react, it is probably not a team of police. If I awake to find myself wondering what all of these people with guns are doing in my bedroom, then they are probably cops.

So I should try to react and kill the intruders and if I can manage an effective defense, they are probably bad guys. If I haven't pulled the rifle off the wall and they knock me down and are kneeling on my spine, then they are the good guys.

Do I get it?

DW

--Edited to add:
Yes I do plan on upgrading my home security system and replacing my interior bedroom door with an exterior door and doing the frames in metal.

 

[robert garner]

Pro or Con

I am proud of my fellow THR members who have kept this thread informative,civil and sane.

I am non-plussed with the recurring theme of 'resistance is futile' you will die!
Thermopolae! Warsaw Ghetto! Can you not see that ? Those that were there most certainly did!


Obviously I would interpose for Wife and Family. Not so apparent is why I would
do the same for the police, in whom I haven't invested thirty years of my life. Its called a social contract,epitomized by the Constitution, He has sworn an Oath to protect it, given a Shield,and takes the pay of the Govt (people),for myself it is merely a Duty,to deliver to the next generation that which the previous has left us.
Merely a Duty, were it NOT for this Duty, perhaps I could embrace the 'resistance is Futile" mindset,I could sell my weapons,invest in a garbage can full of reefer, grow my hair and relax, I would only have to P my belly once , Somehow though; all those people, from Concord to Baghdad, demand more from me.
robert

 

[Travis McGee]

The debate on this thread is very much the theme of my first novel: what to do about an out of control SWAT team mentality run amuck? There are several no-knock SWAT raids in the book, and in only one does the home owner basically wipe out the entry team, and that is only because he has been tipped off in advance by a LE insider, and is waiting in ambush. He has several improvised explosive charges prepared, and even so, he doesn't survive the encounter.

 

[coyote_jr]

What a Low Road convo

 

[pacodelahoya]

What a Low Road convo

I agree, it's bad indeed when you have to contemplate whether or not to shoot someone kicking in your door at 4:30 in the morning because you don't know if they are criminals or government agents that have forsaken thier oath to uphold the Constitution..

 

[jselvy]

Jeff White,

Do you consider living in a bad neighborhood to be

engaging in criminal activity

.
Because if that's the case then your assessment is absolutely factual as the Police rarely raid good neighborhoods. If not then your argument is specious.

Jefferson

 

[DigitalWarrior]

Gentlemen, I do not think this is a low road conversation (though I do believe that some people have taken it there). I guess my big problem is that it might have been better suited for strategies and tactics.

The problem I saw was that criminals identified themselves as police. So now when someone identifies themselves as police, what is the best course of action. It seems to me that I just have to put my trust in God and hope for the best.

DW

 

[cracked butt]

The problem I saw was that criminals identified themselves as police. So now when someone identifies themselves as police, what is the best course of action.

Part of it is just using common sense.
- If the people at the door identify themselves as police, they are in uniform, and a cruiser is visible in the street, Occams Razor says they are police.
- If the people identifying themselves as police have hooded sweatshirts on, jungle pants that they have to keep one hand on to hold up, and a 1965 chevy with 24 in rims on it is parked in front of your house, don't open the damn door.
-If you have any questions whatsoever, don't open the door.


I still don't know how this thread degenerated into being about shooting police officers over no-knock warrants. The original article clearly said "the man answered the door," I don't know what that means in other parts of the country, but in every case that I've heard the words "answer the door" it means the person opened the door a crack and said "hello" or even placed a foot outside the door.

I have a friend who "answered the door" once for someone asking for his room mate. It turned out that 4 of the knockers friends were hiding in the hallway of the apartment building and rushed the door as soon as it was unlatched. My friend got roughed up a bit and they perps took whatever they could get their hands on in a minutes time.

 

[brerrabbit]

I agree

Considering many of the posts have the gist of " If you aint doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about".

Since I am not doing anything wrong, I would consider anyone busting into my home in the middle of the night after getting past my dogs not to be LEO whether or not they scream it as they are busting down the door, nor how they are dressed.

After all, if an LEO wants to serve a warrant for anything he will come in the daylight, identify himself, provide the warrant for perusal etc after which I will be the most polite courteous person that man will see that day.

 

[RangerHAAF]

I consider my home my castle and any intruders who who enter it unbidden will be fired upon. There are no mitigating or exigent circumstances to consider. An intruder who crosses my home threshold is there to do me or my family harm.

As for warrants, if the criminal subject is important enough the cops will follow proper procedure and get one. Otherwise you're going to get more citizen/cop shootouts like what happened in Atlanta; which as a result of drug warrant requests by the APD have gone down to zero and two cops are going to jail and one is awaiting trial, not to mention the multimillion dollar lawsuit that the city will be paying out.

 

[thexrayboy]

Gentlemen, I do not think this is a low road conversation (though I do believe that some people have taken it there). I guess my big problem is that it might have been better suited for strategies and tactics.

Feel free to discuss this topic in strategies n tactics. Threads about this topic get locked in that area as soon as the resident mod sees them. Contrary to some this issue is not fantasy, it is a real possibility that has evolved from a rare and random fluke into a regular occurence. If the trend continues it won't be many years before everyone is either a victim of a mistaken raid or knows someone who was. The relevant question should be twofold. How do I avoid being victimized by this trend and how do we as a society reverse this trend and return our country to one where LEO is accountable to the citizens. We need to find a way to transform police services back into the realm of public service, not a militarized reincarnation of the Gestapo or SS storming through doors terrorizing all in their path.

 

[jr81452]

i don't really want to get into this conversation but some of the posts got me to thinking about the anti gun congress critters using the pages of these forums to further their cause. so i did some searching on the net and found that if you type "shoot LEO's" into yahoo search, a page on THR comes up as #4 on the list. just something to keep in mind as you type out these hypothetical responses.

 

[tepin]

My alarm is always armed. Glass is 24 hour, doors are 24 hour (mostly) and motion armed when I am in bed or not home. I walk the house, eat dinner and watch TV with my .38+P in my lap. The .40 and .45 are in the bedroom for night-time use.

1. You are eating popcorn while watching TV: Cops dont raid homes wearing hoodies and t-shirts that say, "word-up" and I certainly dont know any cops with gold caps on their front teeth. Given that, shoot if the folks entering your home do not look like the police

2. Its 4AM and your alarm sounds: Most likely, if the people that kicked your door in and are yelling "police" AND they continue to the back of the home with the alarm sounding, it might in fact be the police. I am guessing that if it wasnt the police, the intruders would be making a fast exit as the alarm system is now calling for help.

I dont know about the rest of you but when I wake up in the AM, I have a hard time walking for the first 20-50 seconds so if some pros invaded my home and I had no notice, I am thinking I would be screwed.

my $0.02