Crimped bullet rotates in the case!

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Scorpionbowl

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I’m a few months into reloading and my friends and the forums have been a very valuable resource, for sure. The first powder I was able to find was Trail Boss, so I started reloading my .38 special which I shoot in a GP-100. When shooting, every once in a while I would get a funny sounding shot, that I thought might be a squib, but they weren’t. I didn’t think much of it and a month later I got a chrono and sure enough, the funny loads metered at ~600 fps instead of ~800 fps. In the meantime, I switched to reloading 357 with no problems. Last week I bought ~1k of .38 spec range brass and started reloading them and noticed the bullets on some reloads would sink into the case after seating. Those were all Remington brass and online research seems to confirm the Remington brass is thinner. I’m not sure if this is true of all Remington, but around here the gun shops have 250 bulk rounds of Remington .38 spec for $90, so it’s fairly common and maybe 30% of my brass. This time I reloaded a 125gr Berrys HP with 6.6gr of Power pistol. I crimp separately and with most of the Remington brass, you can rotate the bullet in the case, but because of the crimp it can’t work its way down the case. After finishing, I went back to my first reloads of trail boss and found some Remingtons and sure enough you can spin the bullet on some them. So a few days ago I went to the range to make some measurements. All of the power pistol reloads, regardless of how loose the bullet was, shot at about 1070 fps as expected. However, with the trail boss, loads with a loose bullet would meter about 200 fps slower. I’m guessing because the trail boss is so bulky and almost fills the case, that it is not fully igniting with the loose bullets? Anyway, it’s good to finally have the answer to what’s going on. Going forward, I will sort out the Remington brass. I don’t think it’s bad, so I don’t want to toss it. Some have suggested after sizing, run it through a 9mm [0.355”] sizing die for the top ½” or so, to neck down the end for a good seating for the bullet. That sounds like a good plan that I’m going to try. I’m also not sure what to do with the trail boss loads I have, since it might be possible to get a bullet stuck? They seemed to shoot ok in my 357 rifle so I may just finish them there. If anyone has any other thoughts, I’d like to hear them. Thanks…
 
In general, if you have good neck tension after seating and the bullet will not move in the case by hand, then you crimp and they do, you have over crimped.

Remington brass is usually thinner and the sizer may not be tight enough.

Size a case and seat a bullet without expanding the case mouth first. If they are tight, the sizer is OK.

If that works, then size and flare, seat another bullet, and is loose the expander is too big. (Or you flared way too much.)

Welcome to THR
 
Follow the instructions of Walkalong and post the results here.

As for the loaded rounds, an item of concern is if the bullet gets pushed into the case. While Trail Boss is made so it is difficult to overload, it is dangerous when compressed. I would get out the kinetic bullet puller and dismantle the rounds.
 
Welcome to the forum...

I have been using the same 1200 pieces of Remington .38 Special brass for about 9 years now and while it is slightly thinner than other brass it should not me a problem if everything else is correct.

Like Walkalong said, usually too much crimp will cause what you are seeing.

Which dies are you using? How are you adjusting them? How are you adjusting how much crimp you are applying to the case? More info will help us help you...
 
Na, I disagree with over crimping of a revolver round causing that syndrome. I crimp the day lights out of my magnum and +P 38 spl. brass, and have on occasion collapsed a body, but never do they rotate in the mouth.

What can cause this, and with good or poor neck tension, is over belling, and or poor neck tension to start with. I can duplicate, and have experienced what the OP is describing back in the day, just by excessive over belling. I have come across RP brass that has exhibited very poor neck tension, and after having been resized, but not belled, a firm crimp roll didn't allow them to spin, I suppose it is a possibility though?

This is also something that can be experienced with pistol brass when the mouth is excessively belled, and then a crimp is applied.

GS
 
I specifically use R.P. brass because of the thin walls.
Take a fired R.P. case and measure the case ID. Resize the case and measure the case ID. The case ID should be somewhere around 0.353" and should not be more than 0.355" for a 0.357" bullet.
Check the OD of the plated bullets. They are often a bit undersized and may actually be 0.355" rather than 0.357". Also, to be clear, the bullets do have a cannelure to crimp into, right?
It does happen that an excess roll crimp will bulge the case out just under the crimp. It also may crush the case. In both cases, it isn't good.
Just out of curiosity, did you work up your Power Pistol loads or just jump into it, as that is an over-mid-range to max load in my manuals?
TrailBoss was developed to use by navies to shoot lines between ships (sort of a giant shotgun powder) and was not designed to be a pistol powder and can show rather large variations in velocity with some cartridges.
So, do the measurements and us know what you find.
PS: if you can afford another die, get the Redding Profile Crimp Die for .38 Spl ASAP. It gives the best roll crimp while also smoothing out any excess flare/bell--for 148gn L-HBWCs, I found best accuracy was with a LARGE case mouth flare, very gentle alignment and feeding the bullet and case into the seating die, and finishing off with the Redding die. The Redding was the best of all the five brands I tested. I need the thin walls of the R.P. brass as the Rem. bullets I use are 0.360" in diameter at the skirt and are most accurate if they are NOT swaged down during seating (so the Lee FCD was out real quick).
 
Thanks for all of the great info guys! I'll try to respond to everything...

I'm using all lee equipment and dies (4 die set).

I'm using a 125gr Berrys plated HP bullet, no cannalure. I'm no longer buying bullets without a cannalure, but since these weren't seated strong, I crimped anyway because I don't want to compress the load.

I don't have a very good micrometer, so I don't trust my ID measurements, but after sizing, all cases are .375" OD and the bullets seem to be .356-.3565

I chose the load from the lee manual which has a 6.8gr max load. Since I shoot these from a 357, I don't work them up, but do chrono and look at the cases for the first five shots. I work up all 357 loads.

Now the experiment...I decapped and sized a few hundred range brass and got a fair amount of Remington. To get 10 cases in which I couldn't seat the bullet with my fingers, there were two that I could. One case you could easily slide in the bullet, and it was lighter than the rest. I then ran them all thru the expander die in which u can tell there was very little tension if any. It seems to be about .25" deep. After that, two of ten cases u could push the bullet past the flare. I didn't continue to the crimp because I'm not going to load these yet. I'm guessing the expander pushed out the very end of the case which may have damage from handling, that then allows the bullet to slide in, it's not clear to me that it's belling way to deep, due to the issue before expanding. I can see why this brass is so good with a .360 bullet, that's why I may try sizing to .355

Thanks again...
 
Scorpionbowl said:
I'm using a 125gr Berrys plated HP bullet, no cannalure. I'm no longer buying bullets without a cannalure, but since these weren't seated strong, I crimped anyway because I don't want to compress the load.
Click to expand...
Semi-auto rounds will setback possibly raising pressures to dangerous levels. Revolver rounds will pull the bullets possible jamming the revolver cylinder but you will not get setback and raise the pressures...
 
The .38/.357 sizing die combination is not the best for loading both since the case walls can be thinner in .38 Special brass. Some sizing dies work fine sizing .357 but will not reduce the thin .38 Special cases enough to hold bullets tight. If your expanding die is doing nothing when it enters a .38 case and you feel no resistance then you may have bullet tension issues. Eventually you WILL get a blooper and a bullet stuck in a barrel especially if you should switch or try a slower powder. You sizing die probably is on the high end of specs too. One method is to use a 9MM Luger sizing die. Size normally with the 38/357 sizer then use the 9MM Luger sizing die and size the case down just past where the bullet would stop when seated. Then expand normally. Or if you shoot a large quantity of .38 Special get a .38 Special die set, or contact a die manufacturer to make you a smaller internal diameter sizing die. The 9MM sizing die only reduces the .38 cases a couple thousandths.
 
I can't agree with all of that.

First, because external case dimensions are identical on .38 Spl, and .357 Mag.
So if your sizing die will size one correctly, it will size the other one correctly.
The lengths are different, but the O.D. of the sized cases are not.

Second, because I have been using the same RCBS .38 Spl & .44 Spl dies to successfully reload .38 Spl, .44 Spl, .357 Mag, & .44 Mag for 45 years.

What I notice here on THR over & over again is:
Lee dies very often have over-size expanders.
And Rem cases are very prone to be too thin lately.

The two together results in poor to no case neck tension.

rc
 
It seems like I'll have to pick one, get a 9mm sizer and add a step, or put up the $ for an rcbs set and hope the sizer isn't on the high side too...
 
but since these weren't seated strong, I crimped anyway because I don't want to compress the load.
Click to expand...
No amount of roll crimp can make up for poor neck tension, and can in fact hurt neck tension. Are you using a 9MM 125 Gr bullet, or the .38 125 Gr bullet?

Did you test a case sized only with no expansion? Was the neck tension good?

I use a taper crimp on plated bullets in .38 Spl and .357 Mag. Anywhere from light to heavy, depending on the application.
 
+1 scorpionbowl on the 9mm size die. that's what i do to get the o.d. smaller. works fine for me.

murf
 
RG1 is on the right track. I've had this same problem with 45 ACP and Winchester brass. I moved away from a RCBS sizer die to Dillion and all my problems went away. I've done a bit of non-scientific testing, and have found that the RCBS sizer dies vary a bit (a friends RCBS die sizes about .001 smaller than mine and works fine). Spoke to the folks at Dillon, and they confirm their sizer dies resize a bit smaller than other brands.
 
Hmm, I some how missed the fact that the bullets don't have canelures. In that case, you'll want to keep an eye out for bullet jump, and especially since you already have a neck tension issue.

But once you start working with canelured bullets you may find that there really is no existing problem, considering you'll be roll crimping into the canelure, which will prevent jump. And although roll crimping is not a substitute for poor neck tension, it does serve the purpose of holding the bullet down.

GS
 
Trail Boss will bridge meter holes that around .30" causing powder throws of 1/4 to 3/4 of the intended charge. Always inspect the charged cases prior to bullet seating.
 
I just noticed Lee has an undersized sizing die for .38 special, I think this is what I need for now...
 
My experience with .38 Berrys in RP brass

I am fairly new to reloading. I have loaded and shot probably 2000 .38 specials with mixed brass about 30% is the Remington RP headstamp. The bullets I have been using are Berry's and Xtreme 158 grain plated. I always know when a RP case is in the press, I dont even have to look. There is nearly no resistance when working the press.

My experience below, YMMV!

1) I shoot them in a couple revolvers. A by no means air lite Colt Detective Special and a heavier 586 Smith. Shooting from a lighter gun may make a difference.

2) I bell NO MORE than to slightly start the bullet in.

3) I crimp NO MORE than to remove the bell using RCBS dies with the crimp/bullet seating die.

4) I shoot a fairly light/medium load of 4.8 grains of Unique powder.

I am hesitant to apply too much crimp on a plated bullet. It deforms them. Pull a couple of yours and see what you have. You may even be cutting the plating. My experience is zero bullet movement, I have measured. Even with the "loose" RP brass, I cannot press in between my fingers and move the bullet.

Again mid range .38 special loads in heavy revolvers and I get no bullet movement with little to zero crimp. I handle .357 loads differently.
 
I found I had problems if I tried to cheap out and use 9MM size plated bullets in some of my 38 SPL brass. Thinking this is the case because of no canalure. Tried it as an experiment and the accuracy was poor as well. Are your plated bullets for 9MM/357 SIG instead of the 38SPL/357? My Lee carbide dies both size on the money, I have two 4 die sets in 38 SPL/357.
 
Did I miss something?

The OP said the Berry's plated bullets are .356-.3565"

Shouldn't they be at least .357-.358"?

Are you using bullets meant for 9mm?
 
I wondered that. No matter what their nominal caliber is, the bullets are small, slick, soft, and have short bearing surfaces.

The first thing I would do is to take some sized but not expanded brass and find some implement that would flare the mouth just enough to start the bullet under the seater. If that gave good "bullet pull" then you need a smaller expander plug. Or a flaring tool with no expander.

If that does not get them tight in the brass, then you need one of those undersize sizing dies. I have used them in 9mm and .45 for short light bullets but have never seen the need in a revolver caliber. But then I don't shoot plated bullets in revolvers.
 
but after sizing, all cases are .375" OD and the bullets seem to be .356-.3565
Click to expand...
Not a die or case problem.

Your bullets are undersize.

They they should be .357" - .358".
Not .356".

rc
 
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