Crimping 358429s

[Buck13]

I have a bunch of Lyman 358429s kindly made for me by forum member GP100man. Crimped in the crimp groove of untrimmed .357 brass, they BARELY fit the cylinder of my GP100. No problems with that so far, but if I'm not confused, the accepted way to load those in .357 is to crimp them over the front of the forward driving band (and watch out for case capacity limits!)

Anyone have a photo or tips for how to do that crimp? I assume it is not desirable to deform the entire driving band, so do you seat it almost flush before starting the crimp?

 

[oldpapps]

Many years ago..... Hell to be so old....

I had and loaded for a S&W Model 19, 4 in blue. Using home cast Lyman 358429 and seating to the crimp grove (liked the 358156 gas checked bullets better). All was well. Tried those same loads in my S&W Model 27, 3 1/2 in blue. The cylinder wouldn't close.... The ends of the bullets extended past the face of the cylinder! Going from a 'K' frame to a 'N' frame. Yep, the cylinder of the 19 was longer than that of the 27.

Life is like that.

I sunk the bullets a little deeper so they could be used in both and lived with it.

The only thing this proves is that I want to check/test my loads in every weapon that it may ever be used in.

I would post photos, but I have none for those weapons. Sold/traded them off long ago.

 

[Walkalong]

Pics?

From member Gato Montes


More pics here.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815&page=2

Most of the time when you crimp into the crimp groove of a lead bullet, they will fit the cylinders. As you said, you could always roll crimp over the leading edge of the bullet and see how it works. I don't have a pic of it, but it shouldn't be too hard to do.

 

[USSR]

I have a bunch of Lyman 358429s kindly made for me by forum member GP100man. Crimped in the crimp groove of untrimmed .357 brass, they BARELY fit the cylinder of my GP100. No problems with that so far, but if I'm not confused, the accepted way to load those in .357 is to crimp them over the front of the forward driving band (and watch out for case capacity limits!)

Buck13,

The 358429 was developed by EK prior to the introduction of the .357 Magnum. At that time, .357 Magnum level loads were developed using .38 Special brass, and the bullet crimped into the crimp groove fit the large framed revolver cylinders just fine. However when S&W designed the pre-Model 27, the cylinder was not made long enough to accept the cartridge loaded in that manner. So EK and others crimped over the edge of the front driving band as you said. What you do is seat the bullet so that front edge of the driving band is just below the case mouth, and then crimp it so that the crimp "curls around" the front edge of the driving band. Of course, you need to reduce your charge weight due to the reduced case capacity by seating the bullet deeper in the case.

Don

 

[rcmodel]

+1 to what he said.

That's the way it works with short cylinder guns like the S&W N frame .357, and possibly your Ruger.

On the other hand, if it fits and the crimp holds the bullet from creeping out far enough to tie up the gun?

Choot'm Lizbeth! Choot'm!!

rc

 

[Buck13]

With the top of the crimp groove jammed right down on the brass, as shown here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=711571

there's a couple hundredths of an inch between the bullet and the forcing cone.

The heaviest load I've shot so far is 12.0 gr of AA#9. No problems with the first dozen of those. I haven't got my new chrono into service yet, but by the load tables, that's no BB gun, but not pushing the edge of the envelope, either. So, I'm tempted to seat deeper just to not have to worry about a little bullet pulling.

 

[Walkalong]

By the looks of those crimps, I would suggest getting a Redding Profile Crimp die, or an RCBS seater with no seating stem, and put a stronger crimp on them in a fourth step.

 

[Buck13]

These were done with the seating die in the Lee 90510 set. Too gentle a die? I shot another 15 rounds of these yesterday (over 12.2 gr 4227 this time; I shot a lot more of these bulles, but on only 5.5 gr Unique) with no problems, but again, that's not an edgy load, so I won't assume I'll be safe with my current crimp at all velocities. I'll sneak up toward the max loads and see about that. To my surprise, the Redding and RCBS dies are in stock at Midway...I guess only complete sets are subject to panic buying.

To try to turn this back to my original question: if crimping over the front of the driving band, would you set the die to seat to about the middle of the band and start the crimp from there, which I guess would shave the front corner of the band pretty strongly and leave the mouth of the case level with the front of the band, or start the crimp with most/all of the band already buried so the lead isn't affected much, and let the crimped brass extend up above the shoulder of the band a bit?

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, too gentle. Seat so you do not shave lead.

 

[bigdaa]

By the looks of those crimps, I would suggest getting a Redding Profile Crimp die, or an RCBS seater with no seating stem, and put a stronger crimp on them in a fourth step.

Do you have a pic of a crimp that you'd say was optimal?

 

[USSR]

...would you set the die to seat to about the middle of the band and start the crimp from there, which I guess would shave the front corner of the band pretty strongly and leave the mouth of the case level with the front of the band, or start the crimp with most/all of the band already buried so the lead isn't affected much, and let the crimped brass extend up above the shoulder of the band a bit?

Buck13,

Here is how to set up your seating die:

With your seating die screwed into the press so that it is WELL above the case holder (so that no crimp is able to be applied), adjust your seating stem way down and then put a case with a bullet to be seated into the case holder. Then, raise the ram a little way so that the bullet begins to be seated. Adjust your seating stem accordingly so that you are able to seat the bullet deeper as you raise the ram. Continue doing this, all the time checking to see how far the bullet is being seated. Stop when you see the bullet seated when the leading edge of the front driving band is "just below" the case mouth. Now, raise the seating stem all the way up so that there can be no possible contact with the seated bullet. Now, screw the seating die down until it makes contact with the case holder. Raise the ram with the cartridge in it, and then check the amount of crimp applied. If you want more crimp, then screw the die down a little more; less crimp, raise it a little. Once you have your seating die set for the amount of crimp you want, raise the ram all the way up with the loaded round in it and hold it up into the die. Then adjust your seating stem down so that it contacts the top of the bullet of the cartridge which is up into the die (the stem will quit turning when contact with the bullet is made). You now have your seating die set up to provide the OAL and amount of crimp you want. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[Buck13]

Yep, that's the process I follow. The crucial question: any idea how many hundreths of an inch are in a "just below?"

 

[USSR]

This ain't rocket science. Just use your Mark 2 eyeballs.

Don

 

[Buck13]

Between serious near-sightness, a touch of astigmatism and a few years of presbyopia, my glasses are fancy enough that I think I'm up to the Mk. IV, at least!

 

[Walkalong]

Just below is a hair less than a smidgeon.

 

[steveno]

if you have a good bullet fit and a good solid crimp you should be able to use the crimping groove in the bullet. load 6 rounds with the load you intend to shoot , shoot 5 of them and measure number six to see if the oal length has changed. if it hasn't changed you should be good to go. if you feel you have to crimp over the front edge of the bullet , I would use a 38 special case and still use the crimp groove on the bullet. by the time you crimp over the front edge in a 357 case the case capacity isn't going to be much different than using a special case using the crimp groove of the bullet. make sure you adjust your loads accordingly. the old 38-44 loads with the special cases should be safe in a 357 magnum revolver.

 

[DM~]

Although i've cast a lot of 358429's i've never really liked that bullet. But, when i did load it, i always crimped over the front driveing band and i've never had any problems doing it that way.

DM

 

[Missionary]

Good afternoon
Of course you could shorten some brass and segregate them for that bullet and revolver.
Any color perminent felt pen on the case head makes a clear mark. Or dedicate a 50 round bullet box to the task clearly marked.
I use that mold down here and it is one of my favorites in 38 Special. When up north there it gets run through a Marlin and my Dan Wessons. But the DWs have long cylinders so most any cast bullet will chamber without fuss.
Mike in Peru

 

[ShelbyV8]

Crimping over the front of the driving band could lead to bullet setback under recoil. As said above use 38 spl brass. There is no difference in the strength of the brass the 357 case was longer to prevent the magnum rounds from being fired in older 38 spl revolvers.

 

[GP100man]

Big Boolits in revolvers !!

Buck

I trimm my brass to 1.285" I loaded some sat & it left me .020" to the face of the cyl.

A firm roll crimp is needed to hold the heavy swc. in place ! especially with hot loads.

I ran 7gr. of IMR800X under em & had no movement on the 6th round .

If not comfortable with that ya can trimm shorter , but shoving that long a boolit in the case & crimpin over the front band is gonna swage the bases down in size fer shore.

 

[Buck13]

Good point. I had forgotten that the case walls thicken as you go down, so seating them deeper sounds like a poor idea.

I forgot when writing this morning that the Unique loads were in .38 brass. I labled those +P+, since they are over .38 +P data I have, but should still be very light by .357 standards. I don't have a .38, nor a shooting buddy who has one, so there should be no chance of those getting into a gun that isn't good for them. Those shot nicely to POA at 50 feet (unlike most of what I shot out of the GP yesterday, but that may be mostly my fault).

I'll need to continue working up the loads with #9 or 4227 in .357 brass to see if I can get max loads to hold with this crimp. Thanks for all the comments.