crown damage by cleaning rod? Myth?

[R.W.Dale]

Crown wear from overzealous usage of a steel cleaning rod Probable but you'll have to work at it.

Crown wear from a rod made from anything softer than steel Myth

Grit getting embedded in your cleaning rod.

Don't store your gun cleaning gear in the kids sandbox and if you do take 3.4 seconds to wipe the thing off before use.

 

[CajunBass]

It's a cleaning rod people. Not a plunger.

Take your time, and be careful. That's all it takes and you won't have a bit of problem.

 

[32winspl]

Horsemany, that was a pretty good point, Damnit!

 

[btg3]

Your cleaning rod is not "aluminum" on the outside, unless you keep it on the Moon. As soon as aluminum touches oxygen it becomes aluminum oxide, which can scratch glass or quartz, let alone steel.

Aluminum oxide is also used as a polish -- for CD/DVD repairs and in toothpaste. The particle size of aluminum oxide is the key. I'm dubious of claims that the alumina powder on a cleaning rod causes damage. More likely, the rod has fluid (cleaner, lube) on it which attracts grit (sand, silica) of sufficient size to abrade the gun barrel. I'm open to being proved wrong and just searching for facts that reveal what is actually happening.

 

[rocinante]

Okay so I got a hung jury.

 

[JohnBT]

Ever watch somebody repeatedly push the brush or the patch completely through the barrel? What happens after the brush/patch clears the barrel? It drops down a little and the rod rides on the inside of the barrel.

Ever see somebody clean a barrel and it looks like they're churning butter or they're really angry at it? Stroke, stroke, stroke, stroke, etc. They look like they're breaking a rack at the pool table with a lot of body english. The jag ends up 6 inches in front of the muzzle at the end of every stroke and they're sawing away at the crown with the rod. Push, yank, push, yank, push, yank. Not good. (Picky folks will take the brush off, remove and wipe the rod, and only then push the brush through again from the breech.)

Will it take 20 or 30 years to make the bore lopsided? I don't know, but I've had some of my guns more than 40 years and they're still okay. Easy does it.

I have little use for bore snakes - after I pull 'em through once they're dirty. Give me a clean patch for each stroke and a brush when it's needed.

Properly fitted pieces will allow cleaning without having to push on the rod so hard that it flexes and rubs the bore constantly. This is a whole different problem than letting the jag drop as the rod exits the muzzle.

Y'all believe what you like, I'll keep listening to the gunsmiths I trust.

As far as the wear caused by the bullet being shot through a dirty barrel? Well, barrels do wear out, it's a fact, so shooting isn't harmless. Why add more wear, and uneven wear, with reckless cleaning techniques.

John

 

[jlmurphy]

I ruined the barrel on a Mini 14 while using JB compound and no muzzle guide. I was after the last bit of copper ( I have a borescope), became impatient and within a few minutes had worn a nice rod shaped groove in the upper section of the crown.

 

[JNewell]

Not at all a myth. I had a SMLE that had been ruined that way. It was the first rifle I ever bought.

Clean from the breech.

If you can't, use a brass bore guide.

Use one piece rods if possible.

Never use steel (too hard) or aluminum (too soft). Brass or coated is good.

I don't buy rods from anyone except Dewey these days.

 

[rcmodel]

As well as many jillions of old Russians Mossy's that had to have the muzzle counter-bored back an inch or so to get rid of cleaning rod wear that caused inaccuracy and key-holing bullets.

And I can show you old Winchesters with cleaning rod wear to where the last inch of rifling is gone if you care to drop by and take a look!

It is not a myth.
It is very real.

rcmodel

 

[R.W.Dale]

And what were the cleaning rods made from that were used on those mosins and ancient Winchesters??????

 

[rcmodel]

Like I already said in post #19.
Refering to Winchesters.

And back then, they used a lot of wood and brass jointed cleaning rods!

I imagine the Russians used steel jointed rods.

But the fact remains, cleaning rod damage & wear is not a myth, and we still have the old guns available to prove it.

rcmodel

 

[R.W.Dale]

So Mosins came with brass or wood cleaning rods and non corrosive ammunition was always used in ancient Winchesters.


Gotchya!

 

[Horsemany]

Good point Krochus. I don't deny that cleaning rods can damage a bore. But I don't think it happens from grit embedding into the rod. I believe it happens from using the wrong type of rod (steel or segmented) and careless techniques. A soldier in WWII would probably have to clean the thing in a hurry in the field and wouldn't care much about muzzle wear IMO. I have some milsurps too and I know that muzzle wear is quite common. Whatever grit gets on the rod (which isn't even abrasive enough to hurt my skin) is benign compared to firing bullet after bullet with a fireball behind it IMO.

 

[elmerfudd]

I wonder a bit about worn muzzles on military rifles. Those things weren't treated particularly well and the muzzles probably ended up in the dirt or the mud more than once and as often as not they were probably fired afterward.

 

[benEzra]

non corrosive ammunition was always used in ancient Winchesters.

Why would corrosive ammunition only wear away the rifling on the last inch of bore?

 

[Art Eatman]

You use a whetstone to sharpen a knife, right? Ever seen a whetstone that's been used a long time, and has become "swaybacked"? Does it really matter which is harder, the knife or the stone? They both wear, don't they?

Oil plus a little powder residue being rubbed at the muzzle is gonna do some wearing of the barrel, no matter what the rod is made of. Not just by the first cleaning effort, no. But, eventually, there will be some wear.

Best to clean from the breech end if possible. If not, use a bore guide.

 

[Horsemany]

Art

I couldn't agree more. As I stated earlier you could cut down a tree with a guitar string if you tried hard enough. Cleaning rod damage is a real thing, but not from grit being embedded in the rod IMO. I believe muzzle damage is from steel, stainless steel or any segmented rod. I also believe a nylon coated rod will have almost no negative affect on a barrel practically speaking. I have several Dewey coated rods that are 5 to 8 years old and I wouldn't hesitate to run my tongue down it to prove there's nothing embedded in it that's hurting my bore. It just wouldn't taste very good.

I'd be sceptical about stainless rods as they are the only type of rod that is harder than the bore(unless you have a stainless barrel.) I know theoretically they flex less than others so they shouldn't contact the bore but if they do, the bore will be damaged before the rod. Not good IMO. I can't imagine what type of grit could get lodged in a coated or aluminum rod that would be harder than a stainless steel rod rubbing the bore.

 

[jlmurphy]

I used to work on wire saws that cut granite slabs for grave markers and precision surface plates. A three strand braided wire was drawn continuously across the surface of the stone while slurried carbide grit was dripped on the wire, it would cut like butter. The wire would last a long time, barrel steel is not particularly hard. The wear comes from the dirt and powder residue, not from the rod.

 

[Horsemany]

jlmurphy

How can you be so sure? If anything on the rod causes wear it would have to be very minimal. What kind of grit do you think is in a rifles bore that would be harder than a stainless steel rod? Just because cleaning rod companies who sell stainless and carbon fiber rods are telling the public that grit embeds in lesser rods doesn't make it so. I admit that with careless techniques a rod can do damage. But for the average shooter who cleans carefully from the breach with a guide any rod will work IMO. By the way most of the grit I see in my bores leaves the rod on the first patch. Let's not pretend theres a slurry pit in there. If there's any evidence that muzzle wear is caused by grit and not the rod itself I'd love to see it. Call me cynical but the only place I ever hear about grit embedding into rods is from someone trying to sell new cleaning rods. I have some really old coated Deweys I'd love to take a close up picture of so you could see all the embedded grit.....that isn't there.

 

[Jeff F]

The best use I have found for a bore snake is to pull one through the bore right before going to the range to get that light coat of oil out of the bore. I use one piece cleaning rods and clean from the chamber end when I can.

 

[Clipper]

I've been using Outers cleaning kits with the plain, jointed aluminum rods for 40 years, and when I wear out one of my barrels, I'll let you know...

The first thing I did with my AK and my Mosin, was to lose the steel cleaning rods.

 

[jlmurphy]

Horsemany,

The stainless steel alloy used for most barrels is 416, if I remember correctly, which is chosen for it's machining and corrosions resistance properties, it is not especially hard. I would guess that the products of the powder and primer combustion are much harder. I am not a chemist. I have used my borescope to watch the tool marks on several Douglas match barrels wear away after 2-300 rounds. The bullets are copper jacketed, which is much softer than any steel, the abrasive is the residue from previous rounds.

 

[Horsemany]

Horsemany,

The stainless steel alloy used for most barrels is 416, if I remember correctly, which is chosen for it's machining and corrosions resistance properties, it is not especially hard. I would guess that the products of the powder and primer combustion are much harder. I am not a chemist. I have used my borescope to watch the tool marks on several Douglas match barrels wear away after 2-300 rounds. The bullets are copper jacketed, which is much softer than any steel, the abrasive is the residue from previous rounds

I agree with what you are saying. I just don't believe that grit can embed itself into the rod and contribute to muzzle wear when using proper cleaning techniques. By proper techniques I mean using a bore guide, cleaning from the breach whenever possible, and wiping the rod off between passes. There are thousands of barrels in existence that have not been damaged by years of cleaning with aluminum, brass and nylon coated rods to prove it. I attribute most muzzle worn old barrels to segmented steel rods being used aggressively. I myself avoid stainless rods for the same reason.

 

[davera]

There was an article in the Garand Collectors journal not too long ago where a guy ran an experiment to see how many cleanings it would take to go from one MW value to another.

The bottom line was, yes he could create wear but never got to a full number difference in MW. An average shooter would have to clean the bore perhaps thousands of times carelessly to really ruin one. Perhaps you'd have to work it like a conscripted private.

With just moderate care, you aren't going to harm a bore.

With all that said, I use good quality one piece rods and a bore guide, supplemented by bore snakes for that quick clean up

 

[Rodd]

Back in the day it was common for makers of match grade rifle barrels to lap the bore with a short slug of soft lead (just coincidentally called a lap) coated with lubricant and a very fine abrasive. This procedure polished the internal surfaces of the bore, removing cutter marks, etc, thereby improving accuracy and other things. Lead is softer than aluminum or brass (just to mention another metal that many cleaning rods were made of)--you can scratch it with a fingernail. That the lead--imbedded/coated with abrasive--polished the barrel steel in not too many passes of the lap is proof that this process can wear away steel. This is bore wear under controlled conditions--i.e. "good" bore wear. Nowadays we can do the same thing by using bullets coated with abrasive--it's called fire lapping.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's change the abrasive from, say, emery, to carbon (a bi-product of combustion which is also very hard) and let's change the lap material to brass or aluminum. The end result is still bore wear. If we concentrate the back and forth movement of the "lap" at just the muzzle end of the bore, then bore diameter grows microscopically larger at the muzzle. If we further concentrate the back and forth movement on only one side of the bore at the muzzle, we get an out of round bore, which is bad for accuracy. This is bore wear under uncontrolled conditions--i.e. "bad" bore wear.

This brief description is not my subjective opinion. I have a four inch Colt Python barrel in my possession that shows exactly this type of wear inside the bore at the muzzle end. The revolver this barrel was taken from is mine, and it was used for years to shoot PPC and other matches. I am a fanatic about keeping my firearms clean (thanks to my dad and to my USMC drill instructors), but it took me a few years and a new Python barrel to realize that there are ways to clean a gun that damage it, and ways to clean that don't. Soft aluminum/brass/jointed cleaning rods, muzzle-entry, lack of bore guides, etc. are not good.

The reason most shooters don't pay much attention to/believe this particular issue is because the average shooter doesn't clean his/her gun after shooting. Most do it once a year before whatever season is about to open. That's real truth. Of course, average shooters don't post on these forums.