Driftwood Johnson
Member
Have you tried firing 45-70 rounds with a full charge of powder in a Trapdoor carbine? The Army reduced the load from 70 grains to about 55 grains for the carbine load because of the recoil in a light carbine.
Currious about "buffalo rifles"
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Have you tried firing 45-70 rounds with a full charge of powder in a Trapdoor carbine? The Army reduced the load from 70 grains to about 55 grains for the carbine load because of the recoil in a light carbine.
I did know that about the army reducing the charge for carbines.
I've also heard of BP shooters stepping down to smaller calibers because the .45-70 brutalizes them over the course of a day of shooting.
I'm pretty sure it will be a .45-70 when I buy one just because of the availability of components and reloading information. It makes the most sense for me from that point of view. But I probably won't ever shoot more than a box out of it in a day.
I've also heard of BP shooters stepping down to smaller calibers because the .45-70 brutalizes them over the course of a day of shooting.
I'm pretty sure it will be a .45-70 when I buy one just because of the availability of components and reloading information. It makes the most sense for me from that point of view. But I probably won't ever shoot more than a box out of it in a day.
The 45-70 is a piece of cake to shoot with a shotgun style butt plate. I had a Shiloh Sharps in 45-90 with a skinny, steel crescent shaped butt plate that beat me to death. I sent it back to them for a rebarrel to 40-70SS and will be much happier.
My Browning BPCR in 45-70 is sweet to shoot in comparison. I slip on a LimbSaver pad and I can shoot 40 rounds from the bench with out getting bruised up unlike with the Shiloh 45-90.
My Browning BPCR in 45-70 is sweet to shoot in comparison. I slip on a LimbSaver pad and I can shoot 40 rounds from the bench with out getting bruised up unlike with the Shiloh 45-90.
ColColt - That's one of the worst shooting bruises I've ever seen.
I've had pretty bad from Mosin Nagants before and even had screw imprints through a T-shirt from one old 12 gauge goose gun, but that one's bad.
How many rounds did it take to put that there?
I've had pretty bad from Mosin Nagants before and even had screw imprints through a T-shirt from one old 12 gauge goose gun, but that one's bad.
How many rounds did it take to put that there?
I should have quit after five rounds but didn't want to drive 20 miles to shoot five rounds so I made it to about 10-12 and stopped. Two days later the bruises started showing up just on the shoulder then migrated to my right chest area, bicep and down the forearm. Most folks won't bruise that bad but I'm on Plavix and Warfarin and that's what made it worse. That photo I posted was about 8-10 days afterwards.
I knew a guy years ago that traded in original Sharps rifles from the buffalo period. He had dozens of them over time. He'd shoot most of them, at least a few rounds each. Those that he kept a while we'd shoot fairly often. They were a lot of fun to shoot.
Seems like most of the old buffalo guns I've seen weren't the fancy grade guns that I've seen from the modern makers, but fairly plain guns with heavy barrels, many built on Civil War percussion carbine receivers converted to cartridge. One reason for the heavy barrel guns was to soak up the recoil from shooting a lot. It makes sense from that perspective, buffalo hunting as a market proposition entailed a fair amount of shooting on a regular basis. At first I didnt take to them, but I came to like the "Business Rifle", which was a medium heavy, round barreled rifle, put out as a regular production model for general sale. It did alright for buffalo, and was lighter to carry than the heavier octagon barreled guns. The carry aspect didn't matter as much to the buffalo hunters, their horses and wagons carried their guns for the most part, but I believe the Business Rifle model was fairly popular. My use would be general shooting, and some dragging it around in the hills and mountains. With that in mind, If I were to get a Sharps now, I'd likely go for a Business Rifle. I'd add double set triggers, a decent tang sight and sling mounts and be pretty happy. I could work with either a 45-70 or 50-70. 50-70 would be fun for the historical factor. 44-77 would also be interesting, being one of the earlier calibers.
Seems like most of the old buffalo guns I've seen weren't the fancy grade guns that I've seen from the modern makers, but fairly plain guns with heavy barrels, many built on Civil War percussion carbine receivers converted to cartridge. One reason for the heavy barrel guns was to soak up the recoil from shooting a lot. It makes sense from that perspective, buffalo hunting as a market proposition entailed a fair amount of shooting on a regular basis. At first I didnt take to them, but I came to like the "Business Rifle", which was a medium heavy, round barreled rifle, put out as a regular production model for general sale. It did alright for buffalo, and was lighter to carry than the heavier octagon barreled guns. The carry aspect didn't matter as much to the buffalo hunters, their horses and wagons carried their guns for the most part, but I believe the Business Rifle model was fairly popular. My use would be general shooting, and some dragging it around in the hills and mountains. With that in mind, If I were to get a Sharps now, I'd likely go for a Business Rifle. I'd add double set triggers, a decent tang sight and sling mounts and be pretty happy. I could work with either a 45-70 or 50-70. 50-70 would be fun for the historical factor. 44-77 would also be interesting, being one of the earlier calibers.
Cosmoline
Member
Your friend's collection would be worth a moderate fortune now. Even the business rifles cost a ton.
Yes, they weren't cheap back then. He was constanty trading them and specialized in buffalo hunting period and area guns. If they lettered to a dealer in a buffalo hunting area and time period, or a known dealer to the hunters, he was highly interested. He wrote a couple books about buffalo hunters.
Ft Griffin Tx, Petmecky, Freund, and other names and places come to mind.
This is one of the books he put together. "Write" may not be quite the correct term in this instance, it's a collection of original, previously unpublished manuscripts from buffalo hunters. Very interesting reading.
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-stand-Miles-Gilbert/dp/0961117427
This another one he did, there's a volume two also.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/310/1/BOOK-EBHS-V1
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Ft Griffin Tx, Petmecky, Freund, and other names and places come to mind.
This is one of the books he put together. "Write" may not be quite the correct term in this instance, it's a collection of original, previously unpublished manuscripts from buffalo hunters. Very interesting reading.
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-stand-Miles-Gilbert/dp/0961117427
This another one he did, there's a volume two also.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/310/1/BOOK-EBHS-V1
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You might like this one from C. Sharps. You can get it in about any caliber.
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/31/Model-1874-Carbine-Hunter-s-Rifle.html
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/31/Model-1874-Carbine-Hunter-s-Rifle.html
A 40 would be nice also for a mild shooter, and would have quite a bit more horsepower than the 38-55 if you wanted it.
Would that be a 40-77 BN? (bottle neck) I forget some of the 40 chamberings. They do pretty well at distance also.
Would that be a 40-77 BN? (bottle neck) I forget some of the 40 chamberings. They do pretty well at distance also.
Interesting that they chamber it for the 405 WCF cartridge. Not original to the days of the buffalo, but more than enough for the job. I have an old Winchester 1895 rifle chambered for that cartridge. With factory loads, it does get your attention but when loaded to black powder ballistics, it is a pleasant rifle to shoot. And even at black powder velocities, enough to hunt this continent.
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fineredmist
Member
I am not a big fan of bruised shoulders and I enjoy shooting my Uberti 1885 Highwall (in .45-70) so instead of loading BP I use 5744 with half the powder and half the recoil with the same performance of the BP loads. There are several other smokeless loads that you can use that are "gentle" even using the 405 gr. bullet. If you want to enjoy some time on the bench then go smokeless and if you want to show how macho you are then shoot BP and get beat up. I'll enjoy my time at the bench, thank you.
I don't think there was a 40-77. The ones I recall are the 40-50, 40-70(both BN and SS), 40-90 and even a 40-100. There is a 44-77 and a fine cartridge it was and is. That was an original chambering.
The 45-70 is about the largest cartridge recommended for smokeless. A 45-90 is a big cartridge and could hold a lot of smokeless powder...could be dangerous, however. There is a difference, I've found, in the recoil and report when using BP over smokeless. BP is more of a shove and boom whereby smokeless is a sort of crack sound and sharp push to the shoulder. At least, that's been my experience. The stock has so much to do with perceived and real recoil. Some have a wider shotgun style butt while others have a narrow(about 1 inch) butt that is curved and a steel plate. That's the one that got me. I don't think it was so much the cartridge as it was the butt style that bruised me the way it did.
I can't get into using smokeless powder in the old rifles/cartridges that were originally intended for black powder. Plus, I like the smell and the smoke!
Yes, I believe you're correct, 40-70 BN. My friend that traded Sharps had one once (at least once). He asked if I had any 30-40 Krag or 303 brass. I had a few 303's that he made a few rounds to shoot the gun he had. I think it was a 40-70 SS. We had a steel plate out at 300 yards, that was the standard target for most things we shot, down to handguns. Pretty good fun to bang it with an over 100 year old Sharps.
I also love the sound of a black powder round echoing off the hills. Smokeless has a flat crack compared to black, which is a deep booming report which seems to roll down the hillsides, echoing back.
The butt you mentioned was the standard military butt. It was used on carbines and rifles. Many of the buffalo guns were converted military percussion carbines, which still had the same old butt stock on them. The 1874 model gets a lot of attention, but they were busy building cartridge guns from all the leftover percussion carbines before that model came out. I think the conversion guns have a lot of character.
I also love the sound of a black powder round echoing off the hills. Smokeless has a flat crack compared to black, which is a deep booming report which seems to roll down the hillsides, echoing back.
The butt you mentioned was the standard military butt. It was used on carbines and rifles. Many of the buffalo guns were converted military percussion carbines, which still had the same old butt stock on them. The 1874 model gets a lot of attention, but they were busy building cartridge guns from all the leftover percussion carbines before that model came out. I think the conversion guns have a lot of character.
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zimmerstutzen
Member
25 years ago, I took my 1884 trapdoor to Shippensburg, PA and fired the 40 round BPCR silly wet match and ended up with bruises like those shown above. My arm was blue from elbow to the shoulder and over to the clavicle, hurt for two weeks.
I'd rather shoot a crescent butt. My 45-70 hepburn doesn't kick like that with the same loads.
I'd rather shoot a crescent butt. My 45-70 hepburn doesn't kick like that with the same loads.
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