Cut shells are stupid.

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Sorry, somehow I stopped getting sheets on this thread. Must have missed one. Let me clarify: shotguns are a poor choice for defense in comparison to a carbine. They are a far better choice than a pistol. Of course, the best choice for you is what you are most proficient with. The takeaway from this thread and test should be that birdshot is a terrible choice, given other options. Yes, it can kill, but the probability of causing physical incapacitation in a reasonable period of time is much lower than for buckshot or slugs.
 
The reason 4" is woefully inadequate is that people don't stand motionless with their arms at their sides in a fight. You have to be able to penetrate through intervening limbs and through an oblique hit that traverses much of the torso before even reaching the thoracic cavity.

I honestly can't believe that there are still so many people that don't understand this fundamental concept of defense.
 
This is getting really tedious.

A. My tests are informal and should not be considered as conclusive by any means. That said, they are conducted in accordance with established standards wherever possible and are generally accurate.
2. What you refer to are called anecdotal reports. They are, in some ways, even less relevant than my own informal testing. What matters is what the FBI has determined from studying literally thousands of shootings. The findings relevant to this discussion are:
a. 12" is the bare minimum required to reliably reach vital organs and bring about incapacitation.
ii. Projectile penetration in properly prepared and calibrated 10% gelatin correlates strongly with wounds observed in actual shooting victims.
 
12" is the bare minimum required to reliably reach vital organs and bring about incapacitation
This is true for individual projectiles wheather those come from monolitic loads, fragmentation or buckshot but not for shrapnel and unconventional means.
 
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The plural of anecdote is not data. I'm not smart enough or experienced enough to think that I know better than the experts. If you are, I'll take your word for it, but u may wish to Google the Dunning Kruger effect.
 
Some people have hands, arms, ribs, and occasionally Carhartt jackets.

If any of those get in front of birdshot, they can stop it from penetrating. Is that unreasonable?

Birdshot can be deadly, but you can't really ask a violent criminal to stand still so you can walk up and execute them.
 
chopinbloc said:
Sorry, somehow I stopped getting sheets on this thread. Must have missed one. Let me clarify: shotguns are a poor choice for defense in comparison to a carbine. They are a far better choice than a pistol. Of course, the best choice for you is what you are most proficient with. The takeaway from this thread and test should be that birdshot is a terrible choice, given other options. Yes, it can kill, but the probability of causing physical incapacitation in a reasonable period of time is much lower than for buckshot or slugs.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me, the shotgun IS the home defense weapon, in that kind of stressful situation where you may or may not be close to panic the key factor here is you don't aim, you point. I pulled the trigger once and I have how many 30 caliber projectiles coming at your chest, your face, your eyes? In close quarters there isn't anything in the same league as a shotgun.
 
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Crawdad1 said:
Shotguns are a poor choice for defense? Not in my book. They're at the very top.
Click to expand...

Mine too!

Inside any range you won't go to the electric chair for a shotgun is the best. Your sidearm is just to get distance
between your foe, and hold o.. Long enough to get to your shotgun.
 
The studies seem to indicate in home shootings occur with in 21 feet of less. The shotgun patterns will only be 4" at most. A handgun is as effective as any weapon at that close range. A danger in those close quarters with a long gun is having it taken away by the adversary.
 
Crawdad1 said:
Are you kidding me, the shotgun IS the home defense weapon, in that kind of stressful situation where you may or may not be close to panic the key factor here is you don't aim, you point.
Click to expand...

Yes, and that stress is far more likely to result in a malfunction with the more complicated manual of arms of a shotgun, especially if it's a manual action. Don't believe me? Attend a 3 gun match some day and count malfunctions for shotguns vs carbines.

Yes, you need to aim a shotgun.
 
Dog Soldier said:
The studies seem to indicate in home shootings occur with in 21 feet of less. The shotgun patterns will only be 4" at most. A handgun is as effective as any weapon at that close range. A danger in those close quarters with a long gun is having it taken away by the adversary.
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You can't sling a handgun. That makes it a lot easier to take away from you. Pistols are also far less terminally effective and far more difficult to shoot quickly and well. Cops carry handguns a lot, don't they? What do entry teams use? That's right: carbines.
 
And they carry shotguns. Shotguns are any more complicated then a carbine? A double aught buck shotshell carries 8, 33 caliber projectiles I fire twice and you have 16, 33 caliber projectiles coming your way. How many times do you have to pull that trigger on your carbine to equal that and how big is that magazine on your carbine.
 
Cut-shells in the way most think of are very dangerous and could cause obstruction = NOT GOOD.
Doable. Just make sure you have no gap between the charge and the projectile, only if you need one in a pinch.

Not just a simple matter of chopping a shell in half and shooting.

Here is the "right way" to do a "CUT SLUG".

Take the birdshot and with a tubing cutter, score the plastic shell case about 1/16 inch AHEAD of the bottom of the wad.
NOT all the way through.. Half way would be a good start until you get the hang of it.
In the case of a "Rem. Power Piston", which we all are familiar with, we will use this for our example.

The idea is to keep the shell in one piece. When discharged, the wad, piston, whatever will be inside
the projectile. In other words, once fired, the "business end" will be together, with about 1/16" sticking
out behind the score you made with the tubing cutter.

It will stay together until it hits. Not the most aerodynamic of things but will knock the crap out of anything within
about 50 yards with "reasonable" accuracy. CB or IC is best but they will stay together in all but the tightest choke.
An ounce of lead at one time is bad news.

I'm not really good on youtube or whatever. Anyone don't understand, I will post some still pics when I get a second and the tools ready.

These really work. Especially if you can't put your hands on a store bought slug.
Been doing this for a LONG time and I'm an old guy. Trust me on this one.
 
Crawdad1 said:
And they carry shotguns. Shotguns are any more complicated then a carbine? A double aught buck shotshell carries 8, 33 caliber projectiles I fire twice and you have 16, 33 caliber projectiles coming your way. How many times do you have to pull that trigger on your carbine to equal that and how big is that magazine on your carbine.
Click to expand...

Departments are moving away from the shotgun in favor of carbines. The shotgun will stick around for a while for opening doors and deploying less lethal, but it isn't a primary weapon on every teams. I know you have strong feelings for your shotgun, but folks who are a lot more qualified than either of us choose carbines. I'm really not interested in going down this road again. It's all been said before and if you don't know, I'm not really inclined to educate you on all the reasons right now. I'm tired. It's not relevant to the topic, anyway.
 
Handguns have been the choice in close quarter combat for centuries. I doubt having any weapon on a sling in you living room would be an advantage. But then maybe you are a highly trained SWAT officer. I am not.;)
 
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