Dog Soldier
member
I never hunt with shotgun slugs. We keep a shot gun handy when camping in the WindRiver Mtns. I cast the LEE Key Slugs from wheel weights. They are very accurate
in the old Mdl.97 Winchester.
in the old Mdl.97 Winchester.
Cut shells are stupid.
- Thread starter chopinbloc
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Crawdad1
Member
A Model 97, now that is sweet, Dog. 
Gun Master
Member
Come on guys. In the simplest terms, we're talking :
1. Close range, major damage, & spread pattern vs
2. Intermediate range, single point accuracy.
Also, don't forget my (your) shooting through walls and killing or injuring your loved ones or your neighbors (rifle) !
My pick is on the shotgun, with choice on different sized shot or slug.
1. Close range, major damage, & spread pattern vs
2. Intermediate range, single point accuracy.
Also, don't forget my (your) shooting through walls and killing or injuring your loved ones or your neighbors (rifle) !
My pick is on the shotgun, with choice on different sized shot or slug.
Dog Soldier
member
Thx, Crawdad. Many years ago a farmer moved up here from Iowa. He needed a hunting rifle. He sold the old Mdl 97 to me for $65 dollars. We took it to an Oil Field shop and cut the barrel to 19".
The old Winchester shoots the LEE KEY slugs great out to 75 yards. But it does have a painful recoil.
The old Winchester shoots the LEE KEY slugs great out to 75 yards. But it does have a painful recoil.
Gun Master
Member
Thx, Crawdad. Many years ago a farmer moved up here from Iowa. He needed a hunting rifle. He sold the old Mdl 97 to me for $65 dollars. We took it to an Oil Field shop and cut the barrel to 19".
The old Winchester shoots the LEE KEY slugs great out to 75 yards. But it does have a painful recoil.
Ouch !
I'm sure the recoil hurt, but think about how hurt the guy on the other end felt ???!!!
Crawdad1
Member
Ouch !
I'm sure the recoil hurt, but think about how hurt the guy on the other end felt ???!!!
That's for sure.
In the NRA Magazine Armed Citizen section a break in with both armed. The homeowner had a shotgun and fatally wounded the intruder who had a pistol. The homeowner said, "He aimed." "I just pointed and started pumping"
Dog Soldier
member
We have developed more firearms innovations than any country in history. Jhon Browning made his first machine gun from a Mdl.94 Winchester.
Was that retarded? No he was the father of an enovation. Experimenting is a sign of curiosity and intellect.
Was that retarded? No he was the father of an enovation. Experimenting is a sign of curiosity and intellect.
One advantage of a shotgun for self-defense is the less-lethal round (sand bag, etc...). Some local LEOs load a combination of less-lethal rounds followed by 00 and 0. I only have a three round auto, so not sure whether I should even consider less-lethal rounds, but don't like the idea of killing anyone.
Dog Soldier
member
Back in the day farmers loaded shells with Rock Salt. When they caught folks stealing their water melons they shot them in the rump. Salt buried in you hide keeps on reminding you not to steal.
barnbwt
member
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What about "epoxy slugs?"That's the theory, yes.
Unfortunately, that's not the reality. The shot does, in fact, separate; and because they don't actually form a solid projectile, they act as individual pellets. And individual pellets, no mater how closely they are grouped, have the penetration characteristics of...individual pellets.
This also applies to "wax slugs".
TCB
Swing
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We have developed more firearms innovations than any country in history. Jhon (sic) Browning made his first machine gun from a Mdl.94 Winchester.
Was that retarded? No he was the father of an enovation (sic). Experimenting is a sign of curiosity and intellect.
No, but comparing the developments of John Browning to using cut shells in 2017 certainly is.
Dog Soldier
member
Calling our members retarded is??
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Worth a day at the range to test, I suppose, if for no other reason than shooting is fun.
They would probably do well...but the real question is "at what cost?"
Seems to me that the point of diminishing returns would be reached pretty quickly once you figure in the cost of material and time. Especially, as someone already pointed out earlier, when you can buy any sort of commercially available round nowadays that will give you the performance you're looking for in the first place.
lemaymiami
Member
For post #60... I'd be surprised if any agency carried a mix of "less than lethal" and regular ammo in their shotguns.... There are agencies that do have specific shotguns set up with beanbag, etc - and have those weapons painted bright orange so that no one uses one mistakenly (and I'd bet that the "less than lethal" gear would be held by a supervisor or senior officer that brought it out on specific request when needed....).
As far as your own self defense... you're only justified in using that lethal action in defense of your life or someone else's, period. You're not justified using a weapon to protect property... You're not alone in not wanting to shoot anyone - that's how most decent folks are raised - but you have to remember - in a life or death situation the other guy called the play... If you hesitate it's your life or your family's lives on the line... With that in mind, if you're going to defend yourself with a shotgun - use 00buck -it's a real fight ender...
As far as your own self defense... you're only justified in using that lethal action in defense of your life or someone else's, period. You're not justified using a weapon to protect property... You're not alone in not wanting to shoot anyone - that's how most decent folks are raised - but you have to remember - in a life or death situation the other guy called the play... If you hesitate it's your life or your family's lives on the line... With that in mind, if you're going to defend yourself with a shotgun - use 00buck -it's a real fight ender...
Big difference between stating that something you said was retarded,stupid or ignorant and stating that you yourself are retarded, stupid or ignorant. Although being ignorant of a particular fact like John Browning used a '73 Winchester not a '94 would define a person as ignorant of at least that factCalling our members retarded is??
Carl N. Brown
Member
A charge of shot flying 25 yards through the air has the wind resistence of individual pellets, with considerable loss of velocity, impact energy and pentration by 25 yards. By 210 feet individual birdshot pellets will not penetrate denim, but buckshot will and slugs will definitely.
A cut shell end flying 25 yards through the air intact has the wind resistence of a solid slug, retaining a greater percentage of velocity, energy, penetration than individual pellets would.
Videos of cut birdshot shell experiments show round entrance holes on targets at 25 and 50 yards. Cut traditionally, the cut shell has a heavy shot end and a light wadding end and stabilizes as a badminton birdie does.
The wound effect of a cut birdshot charge at 25 yards would be like a birdshot charge at near contact range, not at all like a shot charge spread at 25 yards.
The Atlas of Forensic Pathology by the Chicago medical examiner has autopsy photos of contact range birdshot wounds; the people who received those wounds were on the autopsy table, obviously dead. The wound channel (for 12ga) was 3/4 inch wide about 6 inches deep with the shot scattered about 4 to 8 inches deep.
Nancy L. Jones, "Atlas of Forensic Pathology", Igakou-Shoin Medical, 1996.
NLJones shows autopsy photos of fatal wounds from birdshot.
_ A "contact" shotgun wound with muzzle abrasion effects. "The entrance wound is the same size as the bore of the shotgun." And same appearance as the wounds from rifled slug at any distance (except for the muzzle effects).
_ A "very-close-range" shotgun wound that shows abrasion by the wadding on the edge of the hole. The wadding entered the round hole wound with the shot. There was gunpowder particle stippling about the wound.
_ A "close range" shotgun wound that shows a square abrasion just above the main wound by the plastic shot cup striking the skin before following the shot charge into the wound. The hole had a "scalloped" edge where the shot started to spread, only one pellet struck seperately.
_ An "intermediate range" shotgun wound with a large main hole and several surrounding seperate pellet wounds.
_ A "distant" shotgun wound with seperate pellet wounds in a pattern of at least 18 inches spread.*
These were cases of birdshot being used to put people on an autopsy table before a medical examiner. Since it was a forensic pathology book, whether the homicides were in defense or offense was not discussed. I suspect the deceased would have wished birdshot was next to useless for defense or offense.
Birdshot is not the first choice for a combat round but it is not a near useless munition at home defense distances either.**
I will admit that use of the cut birdshot shell is a useful skill to know, but only for emergency use. I would not hesitate to make cut birdshot in a "stranded on the mountain in Bear Hollow" or other survival situation. The effects of cut birdshot shells in practice against barndoors, etc., did give the WWII British Home Guard some confidence in carrying their fowling pieces on coast watch duty.
For home defense I will chose coarse goose or turkey loads (swan drops) or 00 buck shot and leave the birdshot for busting clay pigeons. In the time I could spend preparing cut shells at home I could go out and buy regular hunting buckshot or slugs - box of five is not that expense.
I also believe that a lot of military/police buckshot is of the reduced recoil variety while hunting buckshot tends to be loaded for bear.
Even though I have tried cut shells, I have some reservations about its use beyond YouTube demos of what they did in the past. I suspect that deer were scarce around here in the 1950s because in the 1930s Depression and WWII meat ration eras farm families would use the cut shell trick to put deer meat on the table. I also believe that if a game warden caught me outdoors with birdshot altered to single projectile, I would have some 'splaining to do. There's too long a history of it used to poach deer during squirrel season.
In a self defense situation, an over-zealous prosecutor could cite possession/use of altered birdshot as proof of malice or depraved mind if he's in an "indict a ham sandwich" mood. Some jurors might ask themselves "why wasn't ordinary ammo good enough?" on their own without prompting.
As the radio editorialist used sign off, just before the "Sleepy Joe" program came on, "I ask not that you agree with me, only that you think about it.
__________________________
* ("Close" to "intermediate" means the clothing or skin of the victim should show gunshot residue, soot or gunpowder particles. "Distant" means the shot was far enough away there would be no stippling and no gunshot residue on the victim's skin or clothing.)
** I don't want to spread the idea birdshot is a less lethal munition either. NLJones noted also that birdshot pellets may enter a vein or artery and get circulated until they block an artery. The victim could be shot in the leg and die of a heart attack or stroke caused by a pellet circulating until it clogged an artery in the heart, neck or brain. That is too slo-mo to depend on for defense, but it also emphasizes the point you should shoot to wound only when lethal force is justified.
A cut shell end flying 25 yards through the air intact has the wind resistence of a solid slug, retaining a greater percentage of velocity, energy, penetration than individual pellets would.
Videos of cut birdshot shell experiments show round entrance holes on targets at 25 and 50 yards. Cut traditionally, the cut shell has a heavy shot end and a light wadding end and stabilizes as a badminton birdie does.
The wound effect of a cut birdshot charge at 25 yards would be like a birdshot charge at near contact range, not at all like a shot charge spread at 25 yards.
The Atlas of Forensic Pathology by the Chicago medical examiner has autopsy photos of contact range birdshot wounds; the people who received those wounds were on the autopsy table, obviously dead. The wound channel (for 12ga) was 3/4 inch wide about 6 inches deep with the shot scattered about 4 to 8 inches deep.
Nancy L. Jones, "Atlas of Forensic Pathology", Igakou-Shoin Medical, 1996.
NLJones shows autopsy photos of fatal wounds from birdshot.
_ A "contact" shotgun wound with muzzle abrasion effects. "The entrance wound is the same size as the bore of the shotgun." And same appearance as the wounds from rifled slug at any distance (except for the muzzle effects).
_ A "very-close-range" shotgun wound that shows abrasion by the wadding on the edge of the hole. The wadding entered the round hole wound with the shot. There was gunpowder particle stippling about the wound.
_ A "close range" shotgun wound that shows a square abrasion just above the main wound by the plastic shot cup striking the skin before following the shot charge into the wound. The hole had a "scalloped" edge where the shot started to spread, only one pellet struck seperately.
_ An "intermediate range" shotgun wound with a large main hole and several surrounding seperate pellet wounds.
_ A "distant" shotgun wound with seperate pellet wounds in a pattern of at least 18 inches spread.*
These were cases of birdshot being used to put people on an autopsy table before a medical examiner. Since it was a forensic pathology book, whether the homicides were in defense or offense was not discussed. I suspect the deceased would have wished birdshot was next to useless for defense or offense.
Birdshot is not the first choice for a combat round but it is not a near useless munition at home defense distances either.**
I will admit that use of the cut birdshot shell is a useful skill to know, but only for emergency use. I would not hesitate to make cut birdshot in a "stranded on the mountain in Bear Hollow" or other survival situation. The effects of cut birdshot shells in practice against barndoors, etc., did give the WWII British Home Guard some confidence in carrying their fowling pieces on coast watch duty.
For home defense I will chose coarse goose or turkey loads (swan drops) or 00 buck shot and leave the birdshot for busting clay pigeons. In the time I could spend preparing cut shells at home I could go out and buy regular hunting buckshot or slugs - box of five is not that expense.
I also believe that a lot of military/police buckshot is of the reduced recoil variety while hunting buckshot tends to be loaded for bear.
Even though I have tried cut shells, I have some reservations about its use beyond YouTube demos of what they did in the past. I suspect that deer were scarce around here in the 1950s because in the 1930s Depression and WWII meat ration eras farm families would use the cut shell trick to put deer meat on the table. I also believe that if a game warden caught me outdoors with birdshot altered to single projectile, I would have some 'splaining to do. There's too long a history of it used to poach deer during squirrel season.
In a self defense situation, an over-zealous prosecutor could cite possession/use of altered birdshot as proof of malice or depraved mind if he's in an "indict a ham sandwich" mood. Some jurors might ask themselves "why wasn't ordinary ammo good enough?" on their own without prompting.
As the radio editorialist used sign off, just before the "Sleepy Joe" program came on, "I ask not that you agree with me, only that you think about it.
__________________________
* ("Close" to "intermediate" means the clothing or skin of the victim should show gunshot residue, soot or gunpowder particles. "Distant" means the shot was far enough away there would be no stippling and no gunshot residue on the victim's skin or clothing.)
** I don't want to spread the idea birdshot is a less lethal munition either. NLJones noted also that birdshot pellets may enter a vein or artery and get circulated until they block an artery. The victim could be shot in the leg and die of a heart attack or stroke caused by a pellet circulating until it clogged an artery in the heart, neck or brain. That is too slo-mo to depend on for defense, but it also emphasizes the point you should shoot to wound only when lethal force is justified.
entropy
Member
Then the question begs to be asked; In what self defense situation would this be more applicable than rounds developed for self defense, most notably 00 Buck and slugs?
My answer would be only if I were in a situation where all I had was birdshot, and was being fired on from 50 yards on out, and had cover to duck behind while I was cutting shells.
The only other application I could see is the original one; hunting large game when single projectile rounds are unavailable. Obviously, using them for legal hunting is outlawed in most if not all states, so it would be poaching.
I will keep cut shells in the mental toolbox just in case I am accosted while out pheasant hunting.
Dog Soldier
member
As I said, calling forum members retarded because you disagree with them is disrespectful.
Dog Soldier
member
If you ever visit the Browning Museum on 25th Street in Ogden Utah you can see the Flapper lever action rifle. It is a Mdl of 1894. Is it the original? I do not know. Speculation is not ignorance.Big difference between stating that something you said was retarded,stupid or ignorant and stating that you yourself are retarded, stupid or ignorant. Although being ignorant of a particular fact like John Browning used a '73 Winchester not a '94 would define a person as ignorant of at least that fact
Ignorance is ignorance, and repeatedly repeating ignorant information, in light of the facts, isn't what I'd call smart
http://www.standard.net/Entertainment/2016/01/12/Browning-s-Flapper-the-holy-grail-of-machine-guns
And cut shells DON'T WORK LIKE A SLUG.
Dog Soldier
member
Mavracer, Thank you for your cordial enlightenment. It was nice of you to help to us better understand our inequities. Thanks so much.
1stmarine
Member
I think the cut shells are pretty lethal just like a bird shot at close range but worse.
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kBob
Member
I am reminded of some of the bad times of the late 1960's. Folks that were upset over one political event or another seemed to have a tendency to want to be distructive of other people's stuff and lives on occasion.
Had a friend that had been a hunter, had been a small bore match shooter and had been turned to the dark side in college. As a young father only a couple of years out of college he found himself living in a trailer in a less than desirable neighborhood with his young wife, a toddler, and an infant.
I was over and given his outspoken anti gun opinions on many occasions was shocked to see and old 12 gauge single shot in an open broom closet. On the top shelf of the cabinet were three rounds of 7 1/2 shot ammo for the old famers friend. Turns out he had kept his old original woods gun out of nostalgia and those paper hulled sheels and it comprised his household arsenal. He had just been checking the old piece when I knocked. His plan was to barricade his family in the furtherist bed room and if necessary defend them with the old shoulder breaker.
That is all he had. That is all a lot of folks had in those situations. That short hall way past the bathroom and kids room into the kitchen was looking awfully long for a load of 7 1/2 shot.
Cut shells can look pretty useful in some situations, test by gun cranks, possible threats of prosecution, or insults seem some how less useful to a parent defending kids in the middle of the night from the hordes.
And yes, 7 1/2 shot can cause death.....even at a good twenty yards. My father and the local paper could attest to this. The person shot those twenty yards from my bedroom window ran several blocks, went home to bed and did not wake up. If you must know it looked like the deader was breaking into the occupied home next door and it was the late 1950's. It was also a .410 BTW with a 3 inch shell.
Still I would not want to have to depend on bird shot when I knew my family might be better served by a little inspired use of a pocket knife.
Cut shells something I PLAN on depending on? Nope. Might be good to know though in worst case scenerios.
-kBob
Had a friend that had been a hunter, had been a small bore match shooter and had been turned to the dark side in college. As a young father only a couple of years out of college he found himself living in a trailer in a less than desirable neighborhood with his young wife, a toddler, and an infant.
I was over and given his outspoken anti gun opinions on many occasions was shocked to see and old 12 gauge single shot in an open broom closet. On the top shelf of the cabinet were three rounds of 7 1/2 shot ammo for the old famers friend. Turns out he had kept his old original woods gun out of nostalgia and those paper hulled sheels and it comprised his household arsenal. He had just been checking the old piece when I knocked. His plan was to barricade his family in the furtherist bed room and if necessary defend them with the old shoulder breaker.
That is all he had. That is all a lot of folks had in those situations. That short hall way past the bathroom and kids room into the kitchen was looking awfully long for a load of 7 1/2 shot.
Cut shells can look pretty useful in some situations, test by gun cranks, possible threats of prosecution, or insults seem some how less useful to a parent defending kids in the middle of the night from the hordes.
And yes, 7 1/2 shot can cause death.....even at a good twenty yards. My father and the local paper could attest to this. The person shot those twenty yards from my bedroom window ran several blocks, went home to bed and did not wake up. If you must know it looked like the deader was breaking into the occupied home next door and it was the late 1950's. It was also a .410 BTW with a 3 inch shell.
Still I would not want to have to depend on bird shot when I knew my family might be better served by a little inspired use of a pocket knife.
Cut shells something I PLAN on depending on? Nope. Might be good to know though in worst case scenerios.
-kBob
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