Cycle failures with 9mm LRN

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pscan12

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
11
Rough day for the reloading business.

After church I went down to my workshop to test and load some 9mm 115 Gr LRN for a friend's Sig Pro 2009. I started with a light load of 3.9 Gr of Hodgdon Titegroup over a Federal Small Magnum primer. Five cartridges loaded, I stepped outside to test the load. The results were as expected. All loads chambered properly but not a single shot cycled the pistol. Before anyone starts to complain about limp wristing the firearm, let me say I am a seasoned marksman and regularly practice with full size and compact semi auto pistols and revolvers. I even through in a derringer on occasion.

Returning to the bench, I loaded a mid-load 4.1 Gr Hodgdon Titegroup lot. Of the five cartridges only two cycled the slide. Shots 3 and 4 managed to cycle, but shot 5 failed to lock the slide back. Back to the bench. This time I loaded my 5-cartridge lot with the maximum recommended load of 4.3 Gr of Titegroup. I was sorely disappointed. Not a single cartridge cycled. The test was not a total waste, as there were many tell-tale signs of the root cause.

1) Each of the cases showed a distinct discoloration of powder burn/residue traveling 3/4 of the case length down to the rim and approx. 1/4 of the exterior circumference.

2) The cartridges were failing to feed when the slide did not travel back far enough to properly engage the extractor, falling under the slide and jamming in the feed ramp.

Before loading each cartridge I measured my exterior dimensions. The OAL was am avg 1.140" with an avg neck dia of 0.3785." The book maximum OAL for a 9mm is 1.169" and the neck dia of 0.0381." I think the crimp may be a contributing factor in my cycle issue, resulting in a gas pressure leak. However, the powder mark on the cases indicate a seal is being made, just 3/4 the length of the case down.

To rule out the possibility of my using a powder that burned too fast, I switched to a slower burning IMR Hi-Skor 700X. I loaded five cartridges at the maximum load of 3.7 Gr. All other factors remained unchained. The results were dismal. Not a single case ejected. I decided it was time to expand my trouble shooting. I picked up a box of factory ammo (the Wal-Mart in Russellville, KY has 9mm, 380 ACP, and 40 S&W on the shelf!). I loaded five rounds of Federal 115 Gr FMJ. All five rounds functioned flawlessly. I then loaded five rounds of 124 Gr TMJ over 3.1 Gr of Clays. Just like the 700X, not one round cycled. I did notice a similar burn pattern on both the factory loads and the TMJ reloads.
My question is this: Is this a reloading error? Probable causes may include poor quality control in the lead cast bullet production, undersized projectiles, over crimped cases, or low power charges. If this is not a load error, is the problem an oversized chamber? I wonder if anyone out there has had similar problems with sigs or reloads and would be willing to share?
 
The primers? Fast powders and magnum primers are not typically part of the same recipe, but I doubt that's causing your problems.
 
The scale was checked between each five cartridge set. As far as mag primer and hot powders, I was limited to what the owner of the materials purchased. Upon looking at the spent cases, I found no signs of over pressure in either the case or the primers. All but four of the reloaded cases were once fired Federal brass cut to a length of 0.7470" and seated to a depth of 0.1470."
 
Your factory loads work fine.
Your reloads don't.

That's what we like to call a CLUE.
It's your reloads.
Not the chamber, or the gun.

You could be over-crimping and squishing the bullet too small for the bore, lowering pressure?
Your scales could be of?
You could be seating too long, which lowers pressure.
You could be holding you mouth wrong while testing your first reloads??

Or, it could be:
I started with a light load of 3.9 Gr of Hodgdon Titegroup, seated 1.140"

That is the suggested starting load on Hodgdon's website with Titegroup and a 115 LRN seated 1.100".

Suggest you bump up the load until the gun cycles. (4.3 MAX at 1.100" OAL.)
Or at least shorten the OAL to the suggested length and start over at 3.9.


rc
 
I assume you have checked bullet weight and diameter.

Light cast bullets are problematical in 9mm P. I have seen poor function and poor accuracy, to include keyholing, before.

Component availability is poor and works against a lot of trial and error.

I think your powders are too fast for the bullet and gun.

Accurate Arms used to caution that light bullets and fast burning powders were not compatible in 9mm. They considered their own AA#2 to be marginal and recommended AA#5. E.E. Harris once commented that European 9mm is loaded with powders whose usual charge is 5 to 7 grains. The NRA when testing the then-new H&K P7 found Bullseye to be doubtful, Unique to be normal.

My usual is HP38 but with lead bullets not lighter than 125 grains and preferably heavier.
 
That is the suggested starting load on Hodgdon's website with Titegroup and a 115 LRN seated 1.100".

Suggest you bump up the load until the gun cycles. (4.3 MAX at 1.100" OAL.)
Or at least shorten the OAL to the suggested length and start over at 3.9.


rc

Sounds like rcmodel is onto something like usual.
 
Can't avoid a good mystery. I thought i remembered a thread talking about magnum primer problems in smaller cartridges with light projectiles. I couldn't find it in a search, but i thought I remembered something to the effect of the pressure of the primer pushing the bullet into the rifling before peak pressure of powder ignition, resulting in as described in your thread, dirty brass and fail to cycle. I know a lot of what happens in a nano second during firing is theoretical but its just a thought. Could the magnum primers be causing your problem?
 
Could the magnum primers be causing your problem?

Is this normal, to use small magnum primers for 9mm? Can any of you more seasoned folk enlighten me on this?
 
the factory 115 fmj cases after firing -- how did they look?
any burn on the exterior?

I do not understand the use of mag primers. and I think the trouble is grounded there.
powder does not fill the case and the fast, hot primer causes ignition of the powder in a way that is not allowing the gun to operate as designed.
i'd wager recoil is 'different' than the factory round too.

flash over of the powder all at once throws the bullet out of the bbl before the case has expanded to form a seal with the chamber. thus the blow by gasses, blackening of the case.
and with out a good seal ( bet the breach face is very black to) the slide does not operate.
 
Last edited:
Cases were sooted/stained up badly and it didn't cycle the pistol.

rcmodel is right, the load is too light. And the slower powder suggestion is a good one.
 
So whats up with the magnum primers? Is this a trick to get more velocity or better accuracy, and nobody is telling me? :)
 
Oh. I think my manuals say don't sub. Is that an overly conservative notion? Or should it say don't sub "if you're inexperienced" instead?
 
Last edited:
Been in contact with Hodgdon, Federal and Sig this morning. Glad to rule out pistol. Found out Lead projectiles generally produce less chamber pressure than jacketed rounds, as evident in the amount of deposits left in the firearm after firing. This, combined with the unusual shape of the 9mm cartridge and faster flash of the magnum primer and projectile seating depth all contributed to the malfunction. Starting from square one tonight with minimum seating depth, standard primer and low load to run out the malfunction.
 
Good News Everyone!

I am pleased to report that I have theoretically fixed the problem. As I posted prior, I could not get the Sig to cycle. Today I picked up a box of Tula small pistol primers. All user accounts said to ensure the primer was fully seated to ensure reliable results. I can confirm this (to a limited extent). Due to failing light conditions, I was only able to load and fire 15 cartridges, so tomorrow will yield more definitive results.

I loaded five cartridges per lot with Tite Group by Hodgdon. The first lot was 3.9 gr, the second with 4.1 gr, and the third with 4.3 gr. I seated my 115 gr LRN to an OAL of 1.1000" and added a crimp. This was not done on the original cartridges I wrote about earlier. Recommendations from Hodgdon suggested this would help build up the needed pressure required to cycle the pistol. I then marked each case and loaded them with the mark (Sharpie) in the 12 o'clock position in the magazine.

Now for the results.

At 3.9 gr, I have a failure to feed on the second shot, third round. I cleared it, reloaded the cleared round and continued to fire without error. I noted some powder residue on the exterior of the spent cartridges in the 7 o'clock position, but nothing at all like my first post.

At 4.1 gr I had a near flawless run. The added pressure in the cartridge was noted. My only error was the slide did not lock back on the final shot. I noted inconsistent powder residue on the cases. I can only attribute this to slight variations in seating the bullets. Forgive me, my 8 year old daughter came down and wanted to help. What can you do?

As the pistol in use (Sig Pro 2009) only came with a 10-round magazine, I reloaded the 4.3 gr cartridges. A perfect run! All of the shots cycled the pistol without a hick up. The slide locked back after the final shot. The recoil was surprisingly easy considering the full load and minimal seating depth. I even got to see the muzzle flash in the darkness. A deep orange flame approx. 12" in diameter. Not the least bit disruptive to my night vision. Examination of the cases revealed minimal powder residue on the exterior surfaces.

Conclusion.

It no surprise that a deep seated and crimped full load cartridge will cycle the firearm in question. It would be worthwhile to test a slightly lighter powder charge with the end goal of prolonging the service life of the pistol. I would also like to test a slower powder like the HI-Skor 700x for reliability. My only real justification for this is quantity; I have 2 1/2 bottles of that to the one of TG. I plan to load 30 rounds of this tomorrow and test fire the pistol. I think I will refrain from cleaning the pistol today in order to preserve the conditions of high volume range fire, and believe me, this thing is dirty!

Thanks to all who weighed in, especially RCModel. I'll post results and accuracy reports tomorrow.
 
I am glad it is working out for you. I had trouble with a batch of .38 Special due almost entirely to OAL.

Be careful with pistol loads of 700X. The large flakes do not meter very well.
If you are loading single stage, do a block check under a good light to be sure every case has a full powder charge... but not two.
If progressive, get a light behind the machine and look in every case as you place a bullet.
 
I still haven't figured out the powder hopper. Everything is hand measured using a Lyman 500 scale. Takes forever, but I feel very confident in the results. Because of this, and safety sake, I only fill between 5 and 10 cartridges at a time. I am sure someone with greater experience than I would argue the consistency of loads by shifting gears from powder to bullet seating so frequently, but so far it has worked for me.
 
Good job with getting your problem solved. This thread will likely help many others in the future.

I have one point to make concerning crimp on an auto-loading case such as 9mm.

Anything more than removing the flare is detrimental to both function and accuracy, especially with a lead bullet. Case tension is all you need or want.

Over-crimping will swage a bullet to a lesser caliber and will cause blow-by, leading, accuracy issues, bullet set-back and functioning issues.

Only rimmed cartridges, while using bullets with a crimping cannalure are to be truly crimped. 9mm does not fit this scenario. Just remove the flare, no more.
 
When I used titegroup in the past I would load 4.2-4.4 and get decent results.

I switched over to bullseye and find it to be much more versatile. with bullseye I can load down to 3-3.4gr(couldn't do this with titegroup) and function all of my pistols with powder puff .22lr type load and can work up to shoot +p+ loads for shooting USPSA major.

Economical stuff and easy to find.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top