Cylinder drag marks

[OrangePwrx9]

Is there any way to avoid them?

All my revolvers have them (well...not all. My '58 Remington C&B doesn't). Spotted a used Smith 37 from 1968-69 that was pristine and without drag marks. Snapped it up thinking the Smiths back then must've been different.

Well, after thumbing the hammer back a couple of dozen times, it has them. Seems the only way to avoid them is to put the gun away and never touch it.

 

[bigtubby]

It is part of the Smith design as combat revolvers the cylinder bolt drops early, Colts have different timing and the bolt drops later and are not prone to the ring.

 

[Creature]

Colts have different timing and the bolt drops later and are not prone to the ring

Really?

 

[The Bushmaster]

Yup. Even my Colt SAA that I bought new in 1966 has the drag marks.

 

[bigtubby]

Ya Really, that is a extremely close and sharp pic. I don't hear about many S&W with timing problems although I am sure you can show me a example. IMO colts have more timing problems as the bolt drops late therefore the ring is not as bad.

 

[pendennis]

Drag marks on Colt cylinders are due to closing the cylinder, and then indexing it. If you hold back the cylinder latch, and index the cylinder when closing it, then release the cylinder latch, the drag line is minimized.

 

[Old Fuff]

The drag marks are are common to most double-action revolvers, and there is a good reason for them. During carry-up (rotation of the cylinder from one chamber to the next) most revolvers are timed to release the bolt (aka "cylinder stop", "cylinder latch") at approximately 3/4 into the total rotation. The bolt then acts as a brake to slow the cylinder, and to be sure the ball (that part of the bolt that sticks up into the frame's cylinder window and engages the notch in the cylinder) will be in place so that it can catch and rise into the notch.

If the timing is adjusted so the bolt isn't released until just short of the notch (to prevent marking the cylinder) in fast double-action shooting it may not come up fast enough, and miss the notch, leaving the cylinder unlocked until it is rotated to the next chamber.

The revolver's owner has three options: (1) Have a gunsmith (if possible) re-time the action and risk having the revolver get tied up during fast double-action shooting, (2) When new, lock it up in a safe and not touch it, or (3) Leave it as it is. Once they understand what is happening most owners go for #3.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

Thanks, Fuff. #3 was going to be my choice whatever came up. Not going to mess with something that works.

Good to know there's a way to minimize the mark on Colt cylinders, though it's too late for mine.

 

[Guillermo]

drag marks happen

and are lovely

 

[CraigC]

Firstly, SA's and DA's are different and I will address them separately.

SA's:
A traditional single action (basically anything but a Ruger New Model) that has a half cock notch 'should' be well-timed from the factory and not ring the cylinder. The bolt should rise into the leede, not before it. If it rises early, it should be fixed. Most new guns are properly timed and I do not own one that isn't. A traditional SA that is properly timed but has a ring has been mishandled. All one has to do to take care that your cylinder is never ringed is to never lower the hammer from the half cock notch. Doing so causes the bolt to rise between the leedes and then when the cylinder is turned, the bolt drags on it. Always draw the hammer all the way back to full cock before lowering it. Properly handling a single action will guarantee a lifetime of use without ringing the cylinder. 19 of my 26 single actions are traditional types and only a couple of those that I bought used have a cylinder ring, presumably from mishandling.

A Ruger New Model is designed for safety, ultimate reliability and ease of mass production. Very little of the hand fitting required for proper timing. So the bolt (latch in Ruger-speak) will always rise early to guarantee proper function. There is also the issue of no half cock notch. Since the loading gate releases the cylinder to rotate, you can close the gate at any location in the cylinder's rotation. So even if properly timed, you would have to make sure you always closed the gate with a bolt notch over the bolt. This can be fixed but most don't bother, even on expensive custom guns.

DA's:
DA's are subject to two rings. First is the timing ring. This ring is identical to the one SA's get due to poor timing. It is usually very wide and distinct. In my collection, only my newest S&W has this ring. A late model 629MG that, ironically, has been professionally tuned. The bolt rises about halfway between notches. The rest of my S&W's are properly timed and the bolt does not rise until it is over the leede.

Most Ruger's will have the heavy ring from an early rising bolt. I'm not familiar enough with Colt DA's to comment on them.

The second ring is usually quite faint and caused by closing the cylinder when the bolt is between notches and then rotating it to lock. One would have to take care to always close the cylinder with a bolt notch over the bolt and rotate it to that notch to prevent the ring. Most don't bother, including myself.


I don't have a better pic but you can just make out the two distinct rings on this 629. About halfway between the notches the ring goes from faint to heavy.



This single action has seen a lot of use, a lot of shooting and a lot of handling. You can see that it does not have a cylinder ring but that the only wear from the rising bolt is in the leede. This sixgun is perfectly timed.

 

[skidder]

Thanks CraigC

Well written and informative.

 

[marv]

The turn ring is a revolver's odometer. No ring means no miles on it. A faint ring means low mileage. The more pronounced the ring the higher the mileage. If it will catch a fingernail I would look at other guns to buy.

 

[CraigC]

The turn ring is a revolver's odometer. No ring means no miles on it. A faint ring means low mileage. The more pronounced the ring the higher the mileage. If it will catch a fingernail I would look at other guns to buy.

How many miles would you say this one had? The turn line is relatively faint.

 

[fastbolt]

In the S&W revolver armorer class they call such a ring around the cylinder a "stop track", since the ball of the cylinder stop makes that mark as the cylinder revolves.

It's normal for the design of the S&W traditional double action revolver. I'd check the cylinder stop's fit & function if I didn't see a "stop track" on a S&W revolver cylinder.

 

[foghornl]

I consider the 'turn ring' more as a 'character & use' mark

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Actually, there is a way to stop the drag mark. Lightly stone the top of the stop. That's it.

 

[Old Fuff]

In my collection, only my newest S&W has this ring. A late model 629MG that, ironically, has been professionally tuned. The bolt rises about halfway between notches. The rest of my S&W's are properly timed and the bolt does not rise until it is over the leede.

Ah… no.

A properly adjusted and timed modern Smith & Wesson revolver should not release the cylinder stop so that it pops up into the cylinder notch’s leede. That would be way to late.

In his book, The Smith & Wesson Revolver – A Shop Manual, Jerry Kaunhausen explains that when checking the stop timing after assembling only the stop, stop spring and trigger…

From the full forward position, slowly move the trigger back. The cylinder stop should pull down to about the bottom of the window in the frame, but not below.

Then as the trigger continues back to the half-way point the stop should slip by and snap into the full up position with the top of the stop body against the inside of the frame.

Obviously if the stop is released and pops up when the trigger is only half of the way back, the release point will be way short of the cylinder notch leede, and this is what it should be.

Kaunhausen’s manual is based on material provided to him by Smith & Wesson, who used it to train they’re own workers as well as numerous law enforcement and military service armorers.

 

[Guillermo]

I thought this was going to be a boring thread but reading Craig and Fuffster make it anything but...

fascinating

Thank you guys!!!

 

[CraigC]

Ah… no.

Then I reckon 10 of my 11 S&W's are ill-timed, including the two that were massaged by a factory gunsmith??? Only the 629MG is timed correctly? So I'm either a real dummy who needs to stop wasting his time and money. Or factory gunsmiths can't time their own guns, nor does the factory produce but 9% of their guns with proper timing. Or I'm just the unluckiest dummy to ever buy a passel of them. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say none of the above.

Since Kuhnhausen doesn't spell out where the bolt should rise, maybe you need to grab a S&W and see where the trigger is when the bolt rises and then get back to us. Because you've obviously never done it before. Just because the trigger is halfway back, does not indicate that the cylinder is halfway between notches.

 

[1911Tuner]

The turn ring is a revolver's odometer. No ring means no miles on it. A faint ring means low mileage. The more pronounced the ring the higher the mileage. If it will catch a fingernail I would look at other guns to buy.

That may or may not be the case. Many people use hundreds or thousands of controlled dry cycles to burnish the lockwork and smooth out tiny rough spots before the first round is fired from a new revolver. Or, they open it up and apply a little polishing agent on key areas, and do the same. "Controlled" by laying the web of the thumb loosely on the hammer and pulling through on double-action while watching TV.

I do it as a matter of SOP with a new revolver to break it in and reveal any areas that need further attention. The revolvers that I've bought new all had light drag rings before the first round was fired. A more telling mark is the trailing edge of the stop slot itself. If it shows signs of flanging of peening, it suggests a lot of fast and forceful DA use. If that is accompanied by more than a bare minimum amount of endshake...that's the odometer.


For the IMO, segment...A drag ring doesn't bother me overmuch. Like holster wear, it suggests honest use on a working gun instead of a safe queen. It lends the gun a bit of character.

 

[Coal Dragger]

I would personally not worry too much about cylinder drag lines, most double actions I have seen that have been used have them. No big deal. Were I to buy a double action revolver (yes I will in the future, I promise!) I would not worry about it one bit. I buy guns to use them, not look at them. I would make it a point to keep the bolt, and the cylinder notches lubed during a range session though. I don't know if it would help alleviate a drag line on the cylinder, but I just don't like metal on metal contact without some lubrication. I tend to run all of my guns "wet" when I can.

I will note that my FA has no drag lines that are noticeable, and the only way I can think of to get them is to use the safety notch, and index the cylinder by hand until the bolt locks into the notch. Otherwise the bolt only comes up at the beginning of the stop track, and you can clearly see on every stop track and notch where the bolt comes up and starts into the notch on cylinder rotation.

 

[Old Fuff]

Since Kuhnhausen doesn't spell out where the bolt should rise, maybe you need to grab a S&W and see where the trigger is when the bolt rises and then get back to us. Because you've obviously never done it before. Just because the trigger is halfway back, does not indicate that the cylinder is halfway between notches.

fastbolt, who is one of thousands who has been tharough a Smith & Wesson's Armorers School, beat me to the draw when he posted:

In the S&W revolver armorer class they call such a ring around the cylinder a "stop track", since the ball of the cylinder stop makes that mark as the cylinder revolves. It's normal for the design of the S&W traditional double action revolver. I'd check the cylinder stop's fit & function if I didn't see a "stop track" on a S&W revolver cylinder.

Kuhnhausen confirms this as I explained in my post, and yes - I have checked the timing of literally hundreds of Smith & Wesson hand ejector revolvers, running from early 20th century to current production, and like fastbolt I would look into one if it released the stop so late it was in the notch leede because there would be a high probability that the notch could be skipped during fast double-action shooting. As a matter of fact I have not found this to be, and I don't believe that a combination of a standard stock trigger and cylinder stop could produce such a result.

Anyone who has a S&W revolver can easily check for themselves. After making sure the chambers are unloaded, cock the hammer or pull the trigger to the point where the trigger is about half way back, (or the stop has been released and pops up) and then look and see how far the cylinder has turned, and how much further it has to go to reach the notch.

Or you can call Smith & Wesson at: (800) 331-0852 and ask to speak to someone who can explain at what point during a cylinder's rotation should the cylinder stop be released and pop up? They may wonder why you're asking, but the will confirm what fastbolt and I have said.

 

[Snag]

They all get them to some degree. The ones on my Blackhawk aren't even straight, I'll post a pic later.

 

[CraigC]

Or you can call Smith & Wesson at: (800) 331-0852 and ask to speak to someone who can explain at what point during a cylinder's rotation should the cylinder stop be released and pop up? They may wonder why you're asking, but the will confirm what fastbolt and I have said.

I'm not calling S&W. Like I said, I've had TEN guns that operate as I described and two of them have been tuned by a factory gunsmith. Never had one skip a chamber during fast double action work.

If you're so sure of yourself, then post a pic of a S&W with the heavy drag line from an early rising bolt. Because all I've ever seen is the faint line from the bolt dragging after closing the cylinder and rotating it to lock.

 

[fastbolt]

Whether or not a stop track line is "heavy" or "faint" will also depend to some degree on the cylinder surface wear created by the stop's ball surface (its friction against the cylinder), as well as the finish, I'd imagine.

The timing of the stop's rise and its engagement of the cylinder's stop notch during fast DA shooting ... (with a lot of momentum being created in the cylinder's hard & fast rotation) ... means the stop pops up before the drag/leade of each of the cylinder stop notches. Normal (for the S&W design).

Also bear in mind that normal wear can occur between the stop's ball and the cylinder, and the height of the stop's rise can (and may have to be) be adjusted in older, worn guns.

I recently had to do this to get normal (better) engagement of the stop's ball into the cylinder's stop notches on an older S&W, because the ball of the stop was barely engaging the cylinder notches. I have no doubt that the owner will see more of a "stop track" occur with his gun from this point forward, as the stop's ball is going to be rubbing a bit more against the cylinder between the stop notches when it pops up.

Adjusting the timing of the cylinder stop's movement is something to be approached cautiously, as it doesn't take much to throw it off. Filing the adjustment pad on top, or opening the lower point, is best left to someone who has not only learned how to do it, but has done it (successfully ).

Skipping a chamber during hard & fast DA work can happen if the stop becomes trapped below the frame's window (as previously mentioned in at least one other post). This is called "throw-by", where the cylinder continues to turn under its own momentum until it slows, not having been caught and held by the ball of the stop engaging a stop notch. A worn or damaged cylinder notch ... or stop ... might also lend itself to a similar problem. In order to try and help prevent such an occurrence (especially for revolvers used as dedicated defensive weapons) I'd want to make sure the stop was rising to the proper height for a solid engagement of the notches each time it was released.

I'm not an armorer for Ruger or Colt revolvers, so I can't speak to the issue from the perspective of having been trained by folks from either of those factories.

I could see someone not wanting to have a stop track (drag ring, whatever) on their prized early Colt Peacemaker with a brightly polished silver plate finish, so they strip-tie the hammer closed so nobody will cock the hammer. On "working", dedicated defensive/duty & target guns, though?

I'm more interested in them exhibiting optimal normal functioning, myself.

To each their own.