Blank Stare 73
Member
The 1851 Navy and my Walker both do this. I'll cock the hammer and the cylinder rotates about a half click too far so that the nipples do not line up with the hammer. What causes this and how do I fix it?
Cylinder overrotation
- Thread starter Blank Stare 73
- Start date
- Status
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,772
If this is a new problem, it's probably a broken or cracked bolt spring (the short spring of the combo trig/bolt spring).
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,772
If your cocking them fast, then you need some work done before you trash them. Colts and clones aren't able to be "fanned" form factory. They are just supposed to function correctly. Fanning isn't correct but you can make it correct.
robhof
Member
robhof
You might also check that the bolt is going up far enough to engage the cylinder notch. My 1849 clone did that and it had a bur on the underside of the bolt slot, not allowing the bolt to fully rise. Thanks to advise from a fellow THR member, a few scrapes with a file and some polishing and it works fine.
You might also check that the bolt is going up far enough to engage the cylinder notch. My 1849 clone did that and it had a bur on the underside of the bolt slot, not allowing the bolt to fully rise. Thanks to advise from a fellow THR member, a few scrapes with a file and some polishing and it works fine.
J-Bar
Member
On the Italian clones, the bolt is often a few thousandths wider than some of the cylinder notches. Used to be Piettas were worse than Ubertis, don't know about now, but still a possibility. If the sides of the notches are getting buggered, you should check for this also. Pettifogger's treatise gives detailed instructions on diagnosis and cure.
Blank Stare 73
Member
I don't fan them, that's not the problem. The Walker started doing it after I'd owned it for 10yrs and shot the heck out of it
I kinda just put it away and haven't messed with it in 3 or so years. I just got the navy and I'm kinda getting back into these guns again and want to get them operational. I honestly don't know much about their functionality ( other than how to shoot them) which is why I'm asking so many questions I figure I can learn to fix em' and use that free navy as my guinea pig so to speak, but hopefully I can surprise myself and make a functional shooter again, and gain an enjoyable facet to this gun hobby to boot.
I kinda just put it away and haven't messed with it in 3 or so years. I just got the navy and I'm kinda getting back into these guns again and want to get them operational. I honestly don't know much about their functionality ( other than how to shoot them) which is why I'm asking so many questions I figure I can learn to fix em' and use that free navy as my guinea pig so to speak, but hopefully I can surprise myself and make a functional shooter again, and gain an enjoyable facet to this gun hobby to boot.
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,772
At least your back at it again! Check the spring first (thats the quickest and hey, it's broke or it aint!!!). Then I would check out these other great suggestions. These threads are full of great info. Best thing is dig in and don't be afraid to try. You can fix it !!!
Blank Stare 73
Member
Yeah, it feels good to be dabbling in the ole cap and ball revolvers again.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Messages
- 22,485
Over rotation is caused by either the hand is too long or the bolt isn't popping up in time.
Take it in order.
After you cock the weapon, the bolt should drop. This allows the cylinder to rotate when first/top step of the hand to engage the cylinder ratchet. Further cocking allows the second step of the hand to complete the cylinder's rotation. Before the hand finishes rotating the cylinder such that it is lined up with the bore, the bolt should pop up and arrest any further rotation. The hand then finishes the rotation and the hammer has reached full cock.
So, what's going on?
Take it in order.
After you cock the weapon, the bolt should drop. This allows the cylinder to rotate when first/top step of the hand to engage the cylinder ratchet. Further cocking allows the second step of the hand to complete the cylinder's rotation. Before the hand finishes rotating the cylinder such that it is lined up with the bore, the bolt should pop up and arrest any further rotation. The hand then finishes the rotation and the hammer has reached full cock.
So, what's going on?
"After you cock the weapon, the bolt should drop. This allows the cylinder to rotate when first/top step of the hand to engage the cylinder ratchet. Further cocking allows the second step of the hand to complete the cylinder's rotation. Before the hand finishes rotating the cylinder such that it is lined up with the bore, the bolt should pop up and arrest any further rotation. The hand then finishes the rotation and the hammer has reached full cock."
The later Colt Single Action Army (1873) does have a two-step hand, but the earlier cap & ball revolvers (including the 1860 Army) does not.
If the bolt pops up and "arrests" further rotation, the hand cannot rotate the cylinder any further unless it overpowers the ball on the bolt that has lifted into the cylinder's notch.
If the revolver is timed as Colt did it during the mid 19th century, the tip of the trigger will drop into the full-cock notch at the same time the back of the hammer hits the top of the backstrap. At this time further rotation of the hammer is stopped, and intentionally so. That said, these days this is seldom seen.
Then the point (top) of the hand is adjusted to that it will turn the cylinder from one chamber to the next, but no further.
Last, the bolt is fitted so that it will start dropping down as soon as the hammer it started backwards by thumb-cocking and released to pop up just short of the next notch in the cylinder, with it (the hammer) reaching full-cock.
If the hammer rotation is not stopped by the backstrap and the point of the hand is too long it will try to over-rotate the cylinder, which cause strain and battering of the hand, cylinder ratchet tooth, and cylinder bolt notches. If the bolt spring is weak or broken the bolt may jump over the notch.
The later Colt Single Action Army (1873) does have a two-step hand, but the earlier cap & ball revolvers (including the 1860 Army) does not.
If the bolt pops up and "arrests" further rotation, the hand cannot rotate the cylinder any further unless it overpowers the ball on the bolt that has lifted into the cylinder's notch.
If the revolver is timed as Colt did it during the mid 19th century, the tip of the trigger will drop into the full-cock notch at the same time the back of the hammer hits the top of the backstrap. At this time further rotation of the hammer is stopped, and intentionally so. That said, these days this is seldom seen.
Then the point (top) of the hand is adjusted to that it will turn the cylinder from one chamber to the next, but no further.
Last, the bolt is fitted so that it will start dropping down as soon as the hammer it started backwards by thumb-cocking and released to pop up just short of the next notch in the cylinder, with it (the hammer) reaching full-cock.
If the hammer rotation is not stopped by the backstrap and the point of the hand is too long it will try to over-rotate the cylinder, which cause strain and battering of the hand, cylinder ratchet tooth, and cylinder bolt notches. If the bolt spring is weak or broken the bolt may jump over the notch.
Blank Stare 73
Member
From what Old Fluff and 4v50 Gary are describing, I believe the bolt must not be engaging properly. The hammer cocks all the way back to the backstrap, but the cylinder doesn't stop where it's supposed to. If I stopped cocking the hammer 3/4 of the way to full cock it would be lined up perfectly. I hope that makes sense?
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,772
bolt spring , or burr
You've got to hear click #2 or it aint gonna lock up.
You've got to hear click #2 or it aint gonna lock up.
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,772
Was the spring broken?
It's not hard to check.
We can speculate forever,
Good luck
It's not hard to check.
We can speculate forever,
Good luck
Interpreting the latest post from the OP:
If the cylinder is in battery before the hammer reaches the full cock position, that suggests the cylinder has moved too far in relation to the hammer (and thus the bolt) position, which tells me the hand is too long. In this condition the bolt timing could be perfect (with respect to the hammer motion) but the cylinder has already passed the point where the the bolt head can engage the cylinder stop notch.
Blank Stare 73
Member
I haven't had a chance to open her up yet, I wanted to get some ideas before I do as I'm kinda just learning the nomenclature of all the various parts, my first time "fixing"? These guns. If I know me I'll break something else trying to put it back together yet another good reason to learn the various parts. Thanks to this site and the help of all you kind and patient gentlemen, I have a lot of info on the proper tools etc. to help me tackle this. This Walker was my first handgun, odd I know but true nonetheless, so I'm really motivated to get her fixed up!
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,772
OK then, Three screws to take the grip off. Then, remove the mainspring . Should be a v spring held on with a hook and of all things . . . . spring tension!
So, cock the hammer to full cock, use a zip tie (poss. 2 if they are small).wrap them around the spring and grip frame tight and let hammer back down. One of these folks may have a diff. way and poss. easier way to do the same thing. If your strong enough with your hands, you may leave the hammer down and try pushing down on the top of the spring (right behind the hammer) and push it to the side and let it up. Put it back the same way. I used to do that with my Walker.
Now, three screws to get the trig. guard off and the combination trig./bolt spring is next. You'll see why it's called a combo spring. It has a long flat spring and a short flat spring. The short one is the bolt spring and i think that is the one that's broken. If not in two, it may be cracked. Remove and check. If you fired your Walker in the past and it worked, but now skips timing, i think there will be your prob. Hands tend to wear shorter so if all was fine back in the day, you should be shooting in no time.
Congrats !!!
So, cock the hammer to full cock, use a zip tie (poss. 2 if they are small).wrap them around the spring and grip frame tight and let hammer back down. One of these folks may have a diff. way and poss. easier way to do the same thing. If your strong enough with your hands, you may leave the hammer down and try pushing down on the top of the spring (right behind the hammer) and push it to the side and let it up. Put it back the same way. I used to do that with my Walker.
Now, three screws to get the trig. guard off and the combination trig./bolt spring is next. You'll see why it's called a combo spring. It has a long flat spring and a short flat spring. The short one is the bolt spring and i think that is the one that's broken. If not in two, it may be cracked. Remove and check. If you fired your Walker in the past and it worked, but now skips timing, i think there will be your prob. Hands tend to wear shorter so if all was fine back in the day, you should be shooting in no time.
Congrats !!!
- Status
