CZ 75 problems

[SharpsDressedMan]

Not all tools work right out of the box. Especially when they have set for 17 years. As noted above, springs get tired, even sitting idle. I'd also install a new extractor spring. I curently have two pre-B CZ75's, and both have updated springs. One needed a new extractor spring, the other a magazine catch spring. After both upgrades, both guns have been 100%. I agree with the break in analysis, too. Most machines get better with a little break in.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Not all tools work right out of the box. Especially when they have set for 17 years. As noted above, springs get tired, even sitting idle. I'd also install a new extractor spring. I curently have two pre-B CZ75's, and both have updated springs. One needed a new extractor spring, the other a magazine catch spring. After both upgrades, both guns have been 100%. I agree with the break in analysis, too. Most machines get better with a little break in.

I've learned through my profession that no use wears springs nearly as fast as regular use.

 

[1SOW]

Tired_and_hungry, if the gun really has been in packing grease for 18 years (you lucky dog), there's a good chance that what you are experiencing is because some dried up nasty has gotten behind the extractor. Failing to pull a case out of the chamber is a good indicator that the extractor is jumping off of the rim. Punch out the extractor pin to dismount the extractor then clean up in there real well.

This should be your "FIRST" thing to do. Spray brake cleaner will work without stripping the pistol or strip and hand clean everything. AFTER it's cleaned, reoil all the friction surfaces with your preferred lube. Synthetic motor oil will work nicely if your options are limited.

As Walt said: the stock recoil spring is 14# and that will run WWB or similar range ammo perfectly. Ejections should be 6'-8' as a guide for a "tuned" recoil spring weight. If you shoot a really light load, then a lighter spring might be needed. If you shoot all NATO loads, a slightly heavier recoil spring might be better, especially if your brass is being thrown into the next county.

The "primary" purpose of the recoil spring is to "FEED" rds off the mag into battery. If the ammo is strong enough to fully retract the slide and feed the next rd, you're good-to-go.
Crud build-up will prevent this cycle from working smoothly.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

 

[Kiln]

Just don't use harsh solvents on the gun if it is nickel plated or you may seriously damage the finish.

My advice is to strip it and clean it by hand anyways so that you can get it cleaned really thoroughly.

 

[JDGray]

Ejections should be 6'-8' as a guide for a "tuned" recoil spring weight. If you shoot a really light load, then a lighter spring might be needed. If you shoot all NATO loads, a slightly heavier recoil spring might be better, especially if your brass is being thrown into the next county.

On a CZ, thats gonna be tough.... Mine all launch brass a good 15-30' with heavier recoil springs, my 40B being the worse offender. I would guess the low slide mass in CZs design, is the reason.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Just don't use harsh solvents on the gun if it is nickel plated or you may seriously damage the finish.

That has NOT been my experience, and I've had several nickel-plated CZ, and have an 85 Combat (nickel) that I've had since the late 1990s. No issue. (I frequently use brake cleaner,too.)

One of the concerns about nickel finishes is using solvents which include copper-attacking ingredients. For some guns, that stuff can get into micro-cracks in a plated finish, and attack the copper base that is used with most nickel plated guns. If that happens, the nickel finish will fail where the copper is attacked. CZ does not use a copper undercoat, so THAT is not an issue with CZs.

RE: CZ recoil springs.

1) a heavier recoil spring does NOT protect the frame. The force of recoil is transferred to the frame when the slide slams forward, not when it goes to the rear. The small slide stop is all that stops the slide, and a heavier spring means that MORE force is transferred, after being stored. (If you don't use a heavier recoil spring, the force not stored is passed through the frame to your hand and arm.) Recoil force is also absorbed by the hammer spring, and a heavier spring there can help with recoil, too -- but it may make the trigger a little less pleasant. As has been previously stated, the real function of a recoil spring is not to protect the gun's frame, but to allow the gun to load the next round and to continue to function. Heavier springs and recoil buffers don't protect anything; they can (positively) change the recoil experience for some folks -- by changing the IMPULSE of recoil.

2) The Wolff springs that everyone uses are really Tanfoglio/Witness springs, designed for the larger-diameter Tanfoglio/Witness guide rods. Wolff makes springs for the Browning Hi-Power that are a physical and functional match to the CZ springs, and that's what I use -- they have the same diameter as the CZ springs, and don't slop-around on the guide rod like the Tanfoglio/Witness springs. Recently, Wolff started offering lower weight springs for the BHP, and they work well in the CZ. (They also offer a variable-rate spring that is my next acquisition.)

3) If you reload, and you find your brass flying away, go to a heavier recoil spring or heavier recoil and hammer spring. Wolff offers "calibration" packs (use the BHP springs) that will let you try different weights to find what works best for your guns or loads. Be wary of TOO HEAVY a recoil spring, however, as it may lead to a broken slide stop.

 

[Kiln]

That has NOT been my experience, and I've had several nickel-plated CZ, and have an 85 Combat (nickel) that I've had since the late 1990s. No issue. (I frequently use brake cleaner,too.)

One of the concerns about nickel finishes is using solvents which include copper-attacking ingredients. For some guns, that stuff can get into micro-cracks in a plated finish, and attack the copper base that is used with most nickel plated guns. If that happens, the nickel finish will fail where the copper is attcked. CZ does not use a copper undercoat, so TYAT is not an issue with CZs.

RE: CZ recoil springs.

1) a heavier recoil spring does NOT protect the frame. The force of recoil is transferred to the frame when the slide slams forward, not when it goes to the rear. The small slide stop is all that stops the slide, and a heavier spring means that MORE force is transferred, after being stored. (If you don't use a heavier recoil spring, the force not stored is passed through the frame to your hand and arm.) Recoil force is also absorbed by the hammer spring, and a heavier spring there can help with recoil, too -- but it may make the trigger a little less pleasant. As has been previously stated, the real function of a recoil spring is not to protect the gun's frame, but to allow the gun to load the next round and to continue to function. Heavier springs and recoil buffers don't protect anything; they can (positively) change the recoil experience for some folks -- by changing the IMPULSE of recoil.

2) The Wolff springs that everyone uses are really Tanfoglio/Witness springs, designed for the larger-diameter Tanfoglio/Witness guide rods. Wolff makes springs for the Browning Hi-Power that are a physical and functional match to the CZ springs, and that's what I use -- they have the same diameter as the CZ springs, and don't slop-around on the guide rod like the Tanfoglio/Witness springs. Recently, Wollf started offering lower weight springs for the BHP, and they work well in the CZ. (They also offer a variable-rate spring that is my next acquisition.)

3) If you reload, and you find your brass flying away, go to a heavier recoil spring or heavier recoil and hammer spring. Wolf offers "calibration" packs (use the BHP springs) that will let you try different weights to find what works best for your guns or loads. Be wary of TOO HEAVY a recil spring, however, as it may lead to a broken slide stop.

I wasn't for sure, I've just been told that as a rule of thumb you should never use certain cleaners on nickel plated guns. It normally says on the can or bottle if it is safe to do so or not.

Maybe not on CZ guns because of the type of finish it is but as a general rule I won't use them on mine, it isn't necessary anyways.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

For most nickel-plated guns, any solvent that contains ammonia would be a potential threat. Anything that gets copper out of the barrel could be a threat to some nickel finishes. Not so with CZs, according to CZ.

(Copper solvents are an issue with any finish that uses a copper base/foundation. Nickel doesn't bond with some steels well, which is why some have the copper base under the nickel finish.)

I corrected some typos in my original response, above.

 

[klmspider]

Odd problems from your CZ 75. I bought one (CZ75 SP-01 shadow) a few years ago.
I shoot Wolf, Hornady Critical Defense, reloads... I have NEVER found a load it doesn't digest. I've tried different springs, with little noticeable difference.
It is my most reliable, accurate, and heaviest, pistol I own. I own at least five other 9mm's.
Something is wrong, but, from my experience, what is happening is an anomaly.

 

[miles1]

NIB CZ75???And thats what the seller claims?Interesting,I'm assuming that it needs to be cleaned maybe?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

nib cz75:

I've stumbled upon two of them, over the years, and a couple that were NEARLY new in box (clearly very limited use.)

It's a shame that the triggers on new 75Bs aren't as nice as new 75s.

All of them improve with use, but with a 75B, I just get trigger/action work done on new ones -- as I hate shooting a gun with a so-so trigger (when I know better is possible.)

The trigger work will probably costs no more than all the ammo needed to put 300-400 rounds through a gun (if done locally), and you get it shooting better, more quickly.

 

[Tired_and_hungry]

Thanks for all the input

Gentlemen,

I think you for all the constructive ideas thus far. Other than the fact that my pistol has a wilson combat 15# recoil spring in place of the factory 14# spring, I will do the following at my next range trip and tell y'all how it went:

1) Field strip and hose down the internals with WD40.
2) Re-lube with high grade sewing machine lubrication oil.
3) Shoot 300 rds of WWB to test for reliability.

Keep your fingers crossed for me.

 

[Kiln]

Wow, now I'm wondering what I'm missing. The CZ75B I have became amazing after I fired about 1k rounds through it. Beats out my Springfield XDM now to be honest and I shot that for years very well.

 

[Tired_and_hungry]

Disappointment

Took my CZ75 out to attempt to reassure myself that it was not a complete unreliable waste of money. I started by applying WD40 on all internal contact surfaces, cleaning the extractor and then relubing with Breakfree CLP. Thereafter, I started testing the pistol by shooting consecutive 30 shot strings using the two 15rd mags that the gun came with. Ammo used is WWB 115gr 9mm. This is what happened:

First 60 rounds, no problems at all.
Felt confident that the problem lay with a dirty extractor and proceeded to swap out my 15# Wilson Combat recoil spring for the 14# factory recoil spring.
Next 30 rounds, no problems.
Next magazine of 15 rounds produced a FTE at the second round. At that point, I decided to discard the factory spring since it is defective and place the 15# aftermarket spring back into the pistol. The remaining 13 rounds were fired reliably but the second magazine of 15 rounds produced a FTE at the 5rd round.
Next 120 rounds, no problems.
Next 30 rounds, FTE at the 7th round.
Next 290 rounds, no problems.
Encountered a FTE during the 1st shot of the last 33 rounds I fired.

All in all, considering only the rounds I fired with the 15# wilson combat spring, I have a grand total of 3 FTEs in 561 rounds fired. Any idea what the issue is? I managed to experience periods of troublefree shooting during the 120 round and 290 batches mentioned above so I reckon my extractor and extractor spring can't really be the issue.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Start with replacing the extractor spring. A relatively cheap shot at troubleshooting, and then get back with us.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Re: an extractor spring replacement is a good suggestion. CZ-USA will probably send you one free of charge; if not, you can buy one from Wolff Springs for a relatively small fee.

WD40 is not a particularly good cleaner or lubricant; I would avoid using it on an ongoing basis. It's primarily a mineral oil and was developed as a "water displacement" tool -- hence WD. If your gun takes a bath, WD-40 is a good way to get water out of niches, etc. (A hand-held hair dryer would do that, too.)

While WD-40 can function as a lubricant it can also, if left the surfaces on which it finds itself, create a varnish-like residue that will cause problems rather than solve them. Guns have been known to lock up with over-liberal applications and long rests. (Others will claim they've used it for years without problems; perhaps, but I won't use it for cleaning or lubrication.)

Note: unless you remove the extractor, or use air or solvent under pressure inside the slot where it rests when closed, you haven't really cleaned the extractor. Problems arise with dirt/grunge buildup under the body of the extractor arm -- which keeps it from closely with full force. The stronger spring suggested in the prior message overcomes that problem. Cleaning it out with compressed air or brake cleaner can also help, but can be messy.

 

[JDGray]

If a gun does not extract, it has to be an exractor related issue, nothing else is responsible for that function. How did you rule that out??

Get rid of the WD40, get a good grease like miltec, or gun oil for the job.

A tight chamber that is dirty, may give you an issue on extraction, but probably would give feeding issues too.

 

[armoredman]

CZ-USA won't send him an extractor spring - they don't ship out of country. I can try to send you one if I can get them to send me one.

I'm glad you didn't leave the WD 40 on - terrible lubricant. If you can get it over there, Weapon Shield is one I've found to work well.

593 rounds in one range trip? Wow. I don't even bring that much to the range. .0067% failure rate. I agree, it shouldn't be happening, though, since I've gone thousands of rounds with no issues. if you want that spring, PM and I'll see what I can do.

 

[sixgunner455]

You have 3 failures to extract in a brand new gun, in nearly 600 rounds. How is that a totally unreliable waste of money? I wouldn't stress too much. Change out the extractor spring, clean the extractor well, and go to shooting it some more.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Also, examine the casings of any future rounds that fail extract. (As someone else wrote earlier, you've got an EXTRACTOR problem, and messing with recoil springs really isn't likely to do much of anything.) Recoil spring generally don't have anything to do with extraction problems. If there's a change with a one pound difference in springs, it's just coincidence, and not relevant.

Some time back, Winchester White Box ammo had an extractor groove that was shaped differently than other ammo, and CZs (and a few others guns) had problems with it -- and couldn't grasp the rim properly. The standard groove (from the side) looked like / while the WWB looked like <. (In both cases, the rim is on the bottom of the simulated extractor groove.)

It could be that you had a bad round or two. A stronger extractor spring is likely to be your solution, and CZ-BRNO should be able to help someone who can't do business with CZ-USA.

 

[Weevil]

This is common on older CZ75s and especially the early Witness pistols.


They are notorious for having weak springs.

Wolff gunsprings makes an extra power extractor spring and get a recoil spring a # or two stronger than stock.

I picked up an early model EA-9 the pre-Witness EAA 9mm. As is typical it had fail to extract issues. Put fresh springs in it and it's been 100% ever since. I went a # over on the recoil spring, but I tell you it sure felt like more than a # when I racked the slide.

The extra power extractor spring is a good idea but it's really the recoil spring that's the issue. The slide is very light on this design and with a weak spring it starts moving too fast. It actually moves so fast it pulls the extractor off the case which is still sticking as it exits the chamber, the slide gets to moving back faster than the case can be pulled out.

A heavier recoil spring slows down the slide velocity and gives the case more time to spring back to it's original size before trying to pull it out of the chamber.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

]The extra power extractor spring is a good idea but it's really the recoil spring that's the issue. The slide is very light on this design and with a weak spring it starts moving too fast. It actually moves so fast it pulls the extractor off the case which is still sticking as it exits the chamber, the slide gets to moving back faster than the case can be pulled out.

I disagree, but would love to hear a more technical explanation of why I might be wrong...

I don't think the extractor really knows whehter the slide is moving faster or slower; the extractor will be applying the SAME FORCE against the case rim with either recoil spring when gripping the case, regardless of the recoil spring used. If you can explain how SLIDE SPEED affects extractor function, I may be able to agree with your explanation of the solution.

The original poster DID try a heavier recoil spring and the problem wasn't resolved.

The OP also cleaned the extractor, but didn't change out the extractor spring. (He may have actually removed the extractor and cleaned behind it, removing gunk too, but that's a bit more involved, and I suspect he would have mentioned it if he had done that. (Blasting out that area with spray solvent or compressed air were the only things I found helpful until new springs became available.

I would argue that if the round isn't being stripped from the chamber, or is being dropped before it hits the ejector, it is almost certainly 1) a damaged extractor, 3) junk behind the extractor arm (in a CZ) not allowing the arm to press down with full force -- not possible with some of the clones, as that area opens into the firing pin channel in those guns -- or, 3) a weak extractor spring.

Wolff offered the heavier extractor spring solution first; CZ-USA sent out Wolff springs to those with extraction problems, not heavier recoil springs. They've apparently since gone to heavier extractor springs in their production guns.

A heavier hammer spring would work just as well as a heavier recoil spring, too, if your interpretation of the problem is correct.

A heavier recoil spring slows down the slide velocity and gives the case more time to spring back to it's original size before trying to pull it out of the chamber.

A heavier recoil spring gives cases more time for the round to SPRING BACK to its original size? Didn't know that cases did that... I do know that cases fired in Glock oversize chambers don't fit in some other guns. (Wonder why they don't spring back?)

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I'm with Walt on this one.

 

[Weevil]

I disagree, but would love to hear a more technical explanation of why I might be wrong...

I don't think the extractor really knows whehter the slide is moving faster or slower; the extractor will be applying the SAME FORCE against the case rim with either recoil spring when gripping the case, regardless of the recoil spring used. If you can explain how SLIDE SPEED affects extractor function, I may be able to agree with your explanation of the solution.

I'm sure you're aware that there's a lot of pressure inside the case and this causes it to expand and press up against the walls of the chamber.

That's why you have a resizer die for reloading, to return the expanded case back to it's proper diameter after firing, because it expands when fired.

When the case is still hot from the burning gases and pressure it is at it's maximum diameter and pressed tightly against the chamber walls. Give it a few fractions of a second and a naturally malleable metal like brass will bounce back and try to come back to it's original size.

If the extractor doesn't care about slide velocity then why does it rip loose from the rim in the first place?

Yes indeed you have the "SAME FORCE" being applied by the extractor, but if the slide is moving faster then there will be more force to pull the extractor loose from the rim than on a slower moving slide. Any time you apply a fast sudden jerk you are more likely to pull something loose than a slow steady pull.


If the case is moving rearward at the same speed from the pressure there's no way the extractor will pull loose.

The original poster DID try a heavier recoil spring and the problem wasn't resolved.

Well in my case just changing the extractor spring didn't cure the problem. It helped. FTEs went from every other mag to maybe one in a 100 rounds but they still happened, after using a new recoil spring as well they stopped and I haven't had once since. Just changing one or the other isn't the answer both of the weak springs need changed.

This wasn't an experimemnt or an original thought a local smith gave me the suggestion because of problems he's had with CZ extraction issues. His idea was the slide velocity was too high due to the weak springs, and from my personal experiences I agree. YMMV

The OP also cleaned the extractor, but didn't change out the extractor spring. (He may have actually removed the extractor and cleaned behind it, removing gunk too, but that's a bit more involved, and I suspect he would have mentioned it if he had done that. (Blasting out that area with spray solvent or compressed air were the only things I found helpful until new springs became available.

Been there done that....didn't help.

I would argue that if the round isn't being stripped from the chamber, or is being dropped before it hits the ejector, it is almost certainly 1) a damaged extractor, 3) junk behind the extractor arm (in a CZ) not allowing the arm to press down with full force -- not possible with some of the clones, as that area opens into the firing pin channel in those guns -- or, 3) a weak extractor spring.

Well I did consider getting a new extractor, but tried stiffer springs first.

Glad I did because a new extractor is $40 and since changing out the springs it has worked perfectly.

If it were a damaged extractor or gunk why does it work perfectly now?

If it were just the extractor spring then why did I still get FTEs after changing it?

Wolff offered the heavier extractor spring solution first; CZ-USA sent out Wolff springs to those with extraction problems, not heavier recoil springs. They've apparently since gone to heavier extractor springs in their production guns.

I'm quite sure that the extractor springs were too weak.

As I said these early CZ and their clones had a reputation for weak springs.

So if they're using weak extractor springs what makes you think the recoil springs are any better?

As I'm sure you're aware the CZ type guns have a relatively small light slide, don't you suppose that a weak recoil spring could contribute to the problem?

I'm sure it was a whole lot cheaper for CZ to just send out new extractor springs that will usually cure the problem, than it was to also send out new recoil springs that combined with the extractor spring will definitely cure the problem. Most companies are usually looking for the cheapest solution, even if it doesn't cure everyone's problems.

A heavier hammer spring would work just as well as a heavier recoil spring, too, if your interpretation of the problem is correct.

That may well be.

I haven't tried it, have you?

It's a lot easier to change the recoil spring and it won't effect trigger pull.

It may work too, but you will wind up with a heavier trigger pull.

But I do know what worked for me and it didn't effect the trigger pull.



I didn't say to not change the extractor spring but I am saying that may not be the only problem caused by weak springs.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

When the case is still hot from the burning gases and pressure it is at it's maximum diameter and pressed tightly against the chamber walls. Give it a few fractions of a second and a naturally malleable metal like brass will bounce back and try to come back to it's original size.

While I don't find that explanation particularly convincing I welcome technical proofs for that argument. I'm not convinced that things happen as quickly as you claim or that brass, once stretched, tries to return to its pre-stretched state as quickly as would be needed to change extraction dynamics. You may be right, but I'd need more than anecdotal proof.

On the other hand... Your original argument would suggest, too, that hotter rounds with standard springs should have extraction problems -- but that typically isn't the case: the spent brass just goes farther.

And, yes, I have used heavier hammer springs in a gun to change slide performance. Most of the time, however, I go the other direction -- to LIGHTER hammer springs.

In a hammer-fired gun, a lighter hammer spring should have exactly the same effect on extraction as a lighter recoil spring -- because the hammer spring AND recoil spring, together, modulate slide movement and speed... That said, I've never had extraction problems after going to much lighter hammer springs. I've only had "ignition" problems.

1911Tuner, who participates here from time to time, as a demo of function, will run a 1911 without a recoil spring (using only a full-length guide rod). He shows that the gun will function as normal but doesn't feed the next round -- as there's no spring to close the slide. One of the points he's trying to make with that demonstration is that the recoil spring isn't really there to control or mute recoil, but to make the gun load the next round. He does this and shows that there's no damage to the gun or the shooter.

If weak springs cause extraction failures, 1911Tuner's guns running without a recoil spring shouldn't extract rounds very well; as far as I know, they do. Similarly, if less recoil damping (lighter springs) causes extraction failures, a much lighter hammer spring should also cause extraction failures. My experience -- and the experience of many other shooters -- suggests that it doesn't.