CZ frustrations

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

forindooruseonly

Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
1,076
So I've posted before about my annoyance with my CZ SP-01 not consistently locking the slide back on the last round. A few posters here and elsewhere recommended changing the spring, but I wasn't having function issues and the gun was already chucking the brass far enough. I finally got around to contacting CZ and shipping the gun back to them so they could look at it. Why buy new if you don't use the warranty, right?

CZ has first rate customer service. I emailed them, they got back in touch quickly and send a fedex label for me to ship my gun in. They paid postage both ways, which is nice. I sent it over the holidays, and just got it back last week. There was an invoice inside that said warranty labor, no charge, but it didn't specify what labor was done. It also said that the gun locked the slide back 12 times in a row with the one Mec-Gar and one factory mag I sent in with the pistol.

I had a chance to finally test it yesterday. First mag locked back. Second one doesn't. Third doesn't. Fourth does. So on until I've gone through all 12 magazines I have for this. Um, okay. I guess it's not fixed. I reload the mags and try again. The ones that locked back now don't, and the ones that didn't now do. What is going on here?

Kinda pissed, I load up some magazines and go hammer on some steel, fast and heavy, and lo and behold I discover what the problem is. Mostly, I shoot one handed and focus on hitting things. I grew up the son of a bullseye shooter, so it's just how I operate. When I get a firm two handed grip and try hard to control recoil and get follow up shots, the gun functions fine and the slide locks back every time. I guess while shooting one handed, I kill enough of the action to prevent the slide from locking back, mostly because I don't fight the recoil very much.

So, will a lesser spring fix this?

ETA: The gun did not reliably lock back prior to service even when I did use a two handed hold and try to control the recoil. I shot it in a couple of matches, which is where most of my frustration came from. So they clearly changed something, then tested it and it worked fine. I am trying hard to like this pistol, but it's the little things about it that bother me.
 
Last edited:
Is it possible that this is a magazine problem, not a gun problem?
 
Well to test your grips hold the gun hard with your left hand only and if it still doesn't lock back well then it's the gun. U could throw in so 10% powered mag springs which should be more pressure on the slide release.

If you think your absorbing to much of the recoil put a 10 or 12lb recoil spring in it, better yet get a tuner pack from CGW.

I've done my best to limp wrist a CZ and haven't been able to do it so it seems odd to me that would be the problem.
 
Jaymo, I don't think it's the magazines. I have 12, split between factory and aftermarket, all about a year old, and they all do the same thing intermittently.

Before I do anything, I'm going to load up a bunch of ammo which I normally shoot, 124 gr. stuff loaded pretty warm, and see if that changes it. I was testing it with WWB, because that's what they tested it with. If I still have issues, then I'll change the spring. As I said, prior to being shipped off, it wouldn't reliably lock back no matter what the grip was. Now I can make it reliably lock back with a two handed hold, but just plinking with one hand doesn't cut it.

I'm not one to limp wrist anything, my wrist doesn't break in my hold, but I do let the gun rise from the elbow I guess. I've never had a problem in any of the other pistols I shoot, ranging from wadcutters in a S&W 52 to full house .45 stuff for DCM matches. I am beginning to think the gun is just sprung heavy. I read a lot about that when i first got it, but I figured it would break in.
 
I'm not one to limp wrist anything, my wrist doesn't break in my hold, but I do let the gun rise from the elbow I guess. I've never had a problem in any of the other pistols I shoot, ranging from wadcutters in a S&W 52 to full house .45 stuff for DCM matches. I am beginning to think the gun is just sprung heavy. I read a lot about that when i first got it, but I figured it would break in.
Click to expand...

Ya from everything you say it doesn't seem like your grip and with 12 different mags that rules that out.

Sounds like your on the right track if the hotter ammo over comes the problem maybe your reloads are to light. The gun was built with the 124gr in mind so of all the bullet weights that's the one that will probably give you the least problems if loaded correctly.
 
Can you video the gun while you shoot for documentation incase you need to speak with CZ again?
 
Can you video the gun while you shoot for documentation incase you need to speak with CZ again?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can do that. In fact, I will next time I'm out.

hotter ammo over comes the problem maybe your reloads are to light
Click to expand...

I'm shooting Winchester bulk, so I'm reasonably sure that it is on the light side of things. My reloads are warmish 124 gr., but I don't have any loaded up right now. Guess I'll hit the reloading room before my next outing. I was using the Winchester because that's what CZ-USA said they tested it with successfully.

It's definitely better than it was, but not quite there.. Thanks for the input fellas!
 
Is it a safety or decocker model?

Is your thumb riding close to slide release when you shoot?
 
I had the same thing happen with a witness. (CZ clone). It was the magazine followers that were the problem.
 
I was testing it with WWB, because that's what they tested it with
Click to expand...

I once had a CZ 75B Compact that wouldn't shoot WWB reliably either; I went nuts trying to sort different recoil & mag springs to get it to shoot WWB. It would shoot Fed AE and Fiocchi fine with the stock springs, try a box of each and see if it chokes on you.
 
Rather than a "gun" problem, it's likely either a mags (followers or springs) or anemic ammo problem. If it's the ammo, a heavier recoil spring will make things worse. (As someone noted, the CZ-75 was originally designed with 124 gr. Sellier & Bellot ammo in mind.) 16-18 round mags.)

I had originally misread and asked (in my original version of this response) if the problem was intermittent with ALL mags or just some. I see you said all of them. Are you sure? Put some masking tape on the bottom of your mags and load a few rounds in each mag, and see what happens. Mark the tape on the mags that have a problem. With that many mags, it's hard to be really sure that it's a problem that ALL mags are having. If it's not all, you can then compare bad to good mags.

If you've kept your mags fully loaded when not in use (and they're not 10-rounders), the springs may have weakened, and THAT can lead to failure to lock back the slide, as the follower may not be pushing up on the slide stop with enough force. [No need to get into a long debate about mag springs....and what wears them out.] Are the mags all easy to load? Getting a couple of springs from Wolff may be a quick and easy check...
 
Last edited:
Is it a safety or decocker model?

Is your thumb riding close to slide release when you shoot?
Click to expand...

Mine is the safety model. Ironically, when I shoot with a two handed, thumbs forward grip that would put my thumb close, it works perfectly. When I shoot one handed, my thumb rests on top of the safety, well away from the slide release and it fails to lock back.

I had the same thing happen with a witness. (CZ clone). It was the magazine followers that were the problem.
Click to expand...

What did you change them to?

With that many mags, it's hard to be really sure that it's a problem that ALL mags are having. If it's not all, you can then compare bad to good mags.
Click to expand...

It is definitely all the mags. I loaded 5 rounds in each when I took it out because I wanted to test each one. The ones that failed I set marked and set aside. Then I tested them all again, expecting to see the same results, except there were magazines that failed the first time which worked, and magazines that worked the first time that failed. So I did that a number of times and they all fail intermittently.

That's when I changed my hold and started just playing and discovered that they worked reliably when I shot two handed with a hard grip. So I went back and checked the magazines once again. All 12 worked perfectly fine with that style of shooting. I repeated that a couple of times to make sure.

Essentially, my problem is that most of the time I shoot one handed and it's then that the slide fails to lock back.

Thanks again for the feedback!
 
Mine is the safety model. Ironically, when I shoot with a two handed, thumbs forward grip that would put my thumb close, it works perfectly. When I shoot one handed, my thumb rests on top of the safety, well away from the slide release and it fails to lock back.
Click to expand...

I wonder i when you shoot with the thumb on the safety you are also slightly pressing your thumb against the slide? That would change/reduce the momentum of the slide... and may be keeping it from locking back?

The solution may be as simple as a slight change to your grip -- so that your thumb is a little lower or slightly different (AND NOT rubbing against the slide)....
 
Good call, I'll try that. I'm not used to CZs, mostly I shoot 1911s where the safety isn't so prominent nor as high on the slide and my thumb isn't in the way. I don't grip with my thumb, it just naturally goes to that position.
 
Keep at it. The SP-01 is a tremendous pistol. This is the all steel version, correct, not the Phantom?
 
It's the steel version. There are things I love about this pistol, the grip and ergonomics primarily, but I also like the heft and recoil attributes. Not a huge fan of the sights or the trigger. As soon as I get this sorted out I think I'll end up sending it to Cajun Gun Works and let them work their magic. I've shot a 75B they worked over and their trigger is in a different league than my stock one.
 
Please note, keeping magazines loaded will NOT, I REPEAT NOT weaken springs! Google it for yourself. Its cycling the spring that will cause it to weaken.
Click to expand...

Can you offer evidence to support that claim?

The topic of springs generates more heat on this forum that politics or religion. A number of engineers have been involved in the discussion -- one of them a metallurgist (an engineer who specializes in the uses of metals). Another member familiar with air guns and the springs used there has also contributed to the discussion with good bit of data about spring life as it's affected by long-term compression. Despite this data and expert input, a lot of folks say keeping springs compressed doesn't matter. Well, it does -- and doesn't. It depends on the gun's mag design and how the springs are used. Working the springs can affect them, but not as much as you might think. It all depends.
---

I've posted the following informaiton before, and will post it again. I'm not an expert, but am simply summarizing what many folks have posted. This text also cites info from the Wolff Springs website, found in their FAQ area. I've also taken some info (mostly paraphrased) from messages left on other forums, including this forum and THE FIRING LINE. All of it seems to be valid, useful information.

The simple answer is that for non-high cap mags, you can generally leave them loaded for a long, long time, without problems. For hi-cap mags or mags for compacts or sub-compact guns (in the larger calibers [9mm, .40, .45], the spring life will generally be less. The same thing holds true for recoil springs in some of the compact guns; most gun makers recommend replacement much more quickly than for full-size guns. That's because the springs in some of these newer (design) guns are asked to do more than in full-size guns.

Shoot them all from time to time, if you store them loaded, and replace the springs if you start to have feeding problems.

The Wolff Springs web site says that springs pushed near to their design limit will not last as long. Most of the hi-cap mags use springs pushed to their limits, as do mags for most compact/sub-compact guns. Visit the Wolff FAQ area for a more authoritarian/expert response... and note: Wolff's telling you how to PROLONG spring life, not trying to sell you more springs. (Wolff recommends downloading a round or two for hi-cap/sub-compact mags, because keeping them fully loaded is stress on the metal [i.e., the springs in this class of mag [hi-cap, sub-compact, etc.] ARE working when stored fully loaded...)

Working the springs will eventually wear them out; it'll wear them out faster if working them pushes them to their "elastic" limits; if not, they will last a long long time. (Think of valve springs in a modern car -- although they're worked a lot -- many hundreds of millions of compressions (or more) over the car's life, they're almost NEVER replaced.)

The concept of spring life has to do with "elastic limits." Springs are generally designed to be compressed just so far, and if you push them to or past that elastic limit, they don't last as long. If you don't push them to their design limit, they can last a long, long time. (That's why valve springs in cars don't generally fail, for example, or the springs in 7-round 1911 mags last for decades -- they're both used within their design limits!) I'm a big CZ enthusiast and I know that the springs in the standard 10-round factory mag (often used in IDPA competition) is the same spring used in the newer 16- and 17-round mags. A fully loaded mag spring in 10-rounder isn't compressed nearly as as much as the same springs in a hi-cap mag, and the 10-round mag's spring isn't trying to do nearly as much work (i.e., pushing up many more rounds) with each full magazine used.

I know that recoil springs in sub-compact and compact guns don't have the same life expectancy as the recoil springs in full-size guns. Sometimes their projected life is MUCH shorter. That's because those springs are being pushed to, and beyond, their elastic limits -- necessary to get a smaller spring (made from less metal) to do what a full-sized spring normally does. I read recently that the recoil springs in the new Rohrbaugh R9 should be replaced every 250 rounds or so... Rohrbaugh had originally set the number higher,.

Use your guns regularly and watch for performance problems. If you feel you must store hi-cap or compact mags loaded OVER THE LONG TERM but want to extend spring life, Wolff Springs suggests that you download the mags a round or two before you store them.

Here are some technical links provided by others, including danez71

Here's some technical links that show that compression will affect spring life. One of the folks providing some technical links is a fellow using the name danez71; he's an engineer who has made studying springs a hobby. On another forum, one of the participants is a METALLURGIST; he may have participated here, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticity_(physics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscoelasticity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(deformation)

Some free sources which indicate/show this time dependence:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA302507
http://www.rockfordspring.com/relaxationofsprings.asp

Another participant here, JohnKSa, has been doing some research after observing some spring failures. I think he knows a bit about airgun springs, too.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
CZ-85 Slide Lock Problem
Replies
10
Views
2K
Blind Bat
B
J
  • Locked
cz po1 question
Replies
5
Views
548
armoredman
armoredman
W
  • Locked
Question on my new CZ-52's....
Replies
5
Views
530
sigma 40ve
S
H
  • Locked
Slide wont lock back ONLY when shooting two handed.
Replies
13
Views
1K
HRnightmare
H
R
  • Locked
CZ 75 Problem At Range
2
Replies
27
Views
5K
schmeky
S
Back
Top