CZ SA or HiPower

[Philo_Beddoe]

All the SA come with the non tapered slide.

However you could order a 75b DASA from cz custom and just have them convert it over to SAO, but that would be much higher and you would not get the larger mag button or upswept beaver tail.

I have weighed the 75b and 75 SA slides and there is only like an ounce or two difference.

 

[don95sml]

I have both the Hi-Power Mark III and a modified CZ75 SA. I like both, but my favorite is the special CZ. I should probably mention that I have smaller hands, so don't like triggers with a long reach. My CZ was ordered from Ghost Products ( http://czcustom.com/ ) It included a trigger job, 3-dot sights, an aluminum trigger instead of the standard plastic, and special wooden grips. At the time all these options and more were shown on the web site, so you could pick and choose. However, I just rechecked that web site and found no listing of these details. Apparently, you now need to call them and get a quote based on what you want. My gun cost around $900, which I think was a good deal. But on the new web site I don't see any bargains. A "built to order" gun is probably still available, but it looks like you have to call and discuss the options.

 

[1SOW]

However, I just rechecked that web site and found no listing of these details.

On the left 'menu', click "Custom CZ guns". It lists what the gun comes with and virtually all the 75 options are available for it.

 

[rellascout]

Better trigger, more parts, less expensive, more aftermarket support, no silly mag safety, etc etc.

Seriously... you think there is more aftermarket support for the 75B? Seriously? I mean seriously?

Mag safety takes about 20 minutes to pull out the first time you do it. Corrects your first objection to the BHP. More parts.... seriously? Price is the only part you have correct. The BHP is more expensive NIB but your other objections simply do not stand up to intelligent scrutiny. In the end its all about what fits your hand and what you shoot better which is completely subjective. What gets me is inaccurate statements like those above which attempt to justify a personal choice as if it was objective opinion. Personal choice does not require fictitious justification.

PS didn't you state this about CZs....

Their triggers often need work.

I sent mine to CZ custom for their trigger job and now its the best DA/SA i have felt lol.

Also my trigger return spring broke after about 10000 rounds but that was a real cheap fix.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6803893#post6803893

You consistently post here how CZ need a trigger job from CZ customs but now claim they are superior to the BHP? Are we talking stock triggers or custom trigger? Apple vs oranges.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I've never owned or shot the CZ SA, so can't comment specifically on that model.

I once owned a CZ 85 Combat, back before all the "B" business. It was damned nice gun and I wish I had kept it. I have a couple of Hi Powers now and love them.

The thing that I find most attractive about a CZ is how much it's like a Hi Power. Internally, there are real differences. Externally, they look different. But, in the hand with your eyes closed, it's the same gun. Great balance, great ergonomics, crisp SA triggers that give you great accuracy. In the real world, they're equal.

Still, though CZ's are fine guns... they aren't Hi Powers. CZ's don't have the history or the retro styling of the Hi Power, and they weren't the brain-child of John Moses Browning (at least, not directly).

If you can't make up your mind, buy both. If you can only buy one, get the Hi Power.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

Seriously... you think there is more aftermarket support for the 75B? Seriously? I mean seriously?

Um, yes there is,

http://czcustom.com/

Mag safety takes about 20 minutes to pull out the first time you do it.

And? Its still a totally unecessary safety that if you disable and then have to use in self defense a opportunistic attourney will use that against. Portray you a trigger happy vigalante who disables safeties so he can shoot people, etc.

Corrects your first objection to the BHP. More parts.... seriously? Price is the only part you have correct. The BHP is more expensive NIB but your other objections simply do not stand up to intelligent scrutiny.

And you saying so makes it true. That is some real "intelligent scrutiny".

THe fact is that for the same price of a new BHP.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=007B&cat_id=051&type_id=001&content=hi-power-mark-iii-firearms

You can get one of these:

http://czcustom.com/CZ75-SA-TARGET.aspx

And get a vastly better trigger, sights, grip (the upswept beaver tail allows a higher grip and the aluminum grips really shrink up the grip hi power size), and more capacity.

In the end its all about what fits your hand and what you shoot better which is completely subjective. What gets me is inaccurate statements like those above which attempt to justify a personal choice as if it was objective opinion. Personal choice does not require fictitious justification.

No, but I would be willing to wager that for $1000, the cz custom SA target will be the much better shooter out of the box for 9 out of 10 people then a $1000 standard hi power with its much inferior trigger, sights, external control, silly mag safety and lower mag capacity.

PS didn't you state this about CZs....

You consistently post here how CZ need a trigger job from CZ customs but now claim they are superior to the BHP? Are we talking stock triggers or custom trigger? Apple vs oranges

Um a cz SA with a trigger job and custom hammer from the custom shop is still $350 cheaper then a high power with horrible mag safety trigger (10lbs out of the box).

CZ and CZ clones are used all over the world to win IPSC competitons. The production division world champion for that last 6 years shoots a cz, the open champion shoots a CZ clone (tanfoglio).

Competititon is the crucible for performance, if equipment cant peform at the high level then it gets tossed out. I dont know any top shooters that use hi powers for anything.

Unlike the 1911 and the CZ, browning has done little to nothing to update and improve the high power and that is really a shame because all it is now is an overpriced single action with sub par sights, trigger, and capacity sold to people with a sense of nostalgia.

 

[KodiakBeer]

You don't have to send off a Hi Power to a custom shop to get performance. The Hi Power (like all JMB designs) can be dismantled into its component parts by anyone.
And despite silly commentary, nobody has ever been hung by a lawyer for taking out the mag disconnect. The obvious defense would be to ask the arresting officer if his gun had a mag disconnect.
Removing the mag disconnect only lightens the trigger by about 15%.
The real way you lighten a Hi Power trigger is by replacing the 32 pound hammer spring with a 24 or 26 pound replacement.
And again, anybody can do that. It was designed to be stripped and repaired in the field by soldiers.

The CZ is a nice gun, but it won't do anything a Hi Power won't do.

 

[Fastcast]

The CZ is a nice gun, but it won't do anything a Hi Power won't do.

Sure it will.....Be at the ready with the hammer down.

Hammer down, draw and fire.

If you don't like that, go cocked and locked.

Hi-Power can't do both like dat.

I guess we are talking about the SA/CZ though.....lol

 

[sansone]

got both, great guns, BHP fit & finish is better, BHP feels better in my hand. Somebody with large hands might feel the trigger-reach is short(close)

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

You don't have to send off a Hi Power to a custom shop to get performance.

Neither do you with a CZ, I was just making the point about aftermarket support and the fact that the hi power is severly overpriced for what it is.

THe SA CZ is not that much more complicated then the HP.

I think the HP is a great gun, but unlike the 1911 it seems to have not really evolved much since its introduction.

Do you really believe that this:

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=007B&cat_id=051&type_id=003&content=hi-power-standard-firearms

With a MSRP of $1100 is the equal of this?

http://czcustom.com/cz-75-tactical-sports-9mm.aspx

For the same price as a plain jain hi power you can get a out of the box ready to race CZ with a extremely nice 2lb SA trigger, competition sights, better external controls, mag well, much higher capacity, upswept beaver tail, etc etc.

Dont get me wrong I think the HP is a great historical piece, but quite frankly browning has done little to nothing to improve it over the years, unlike its older cousin the 1911

 

[Radjxf]

How about a fair price comparison. Comparing MSRP from Browning's website to what a CZ custom actually sells for

The Browning designs haven't changed for years for a reason--they work. There are far more gunsmiths willing to work on HP's than a CZ. Most smiths won't work on a CZ due to the soft sears and complicated 'sear cage' and it's countless little springs. I know as I've worked on both.

If I can borrow a slide, I'll take pics of the internals on both. Browning doesn't have unfinished internals, soft sears, and extensive milling marks on the CZ. The 2 CZ's I owned (both NIB pre-2006 guns) did not become reliable until I'd replaced the extractor springs, recontoured the extractor claws, beveled the lower breechface, changed the recoil springs (too stout), reduced and recontoured the slide stop and performed a trigger job. Every one I've seen has a fairly short chamber as well.

I really like them both, and won't let emotional attachment cloud my judgment esp. in terms of reliability. Heck, some day I may acquire another CZ for a range gun, i.e. Shadow or SP01. But for now, that's very far down on my list.

 

[sansone]

^ what he says... yes

 

[rellascout]

It amazes me how many times people quote MSRP for BHPs. No one pays $1100 for BHPs. You can get a NIB gun for $700.

For the price of that tactical sport I can have this... actually the base gun for this cost me less than $450. The custom work with parts was around $500 and the end result is a much more useable practical gun then that tactical sport which is really only good as a race gun. YMMV but I have no use for a tuned race gun. My guns are functional tools which are used for defense and punching paper.



The main issue between these two choices is price and ergonomics. The CZ75 SA is about $500 to $575 NIB these days and the BHP is $700 to $750 and as others have pointed out there is a lot of refinement in the internals of the pistol that for me justify the price.

The CZ 75 does not fit my hands. Its length of pull is too long so because of that subjective factor I no longer own one. I owned an Angus Hobdell CZ75 B before most people knew what a CZ75 was let alone who Angus is.

Angus is great with CZs but IMHO there are not a lot of smiths that will touch CZs. When you compare that to BHPs it is most likely 10 to 1. Parts wise there are way more people making BHP parts than CZ parts.

Its all about the fit of the gun in your hand which is completely subjective. Again lets be objective instead of posting preference as fact. When you are stating facts like parts support and availablity of good smiths to work on them please get them right....

 

[DT Guy]

I've got tuned examples of both, and they're both similar and different.

I will add that working on that sear cage in the CZ is an unholy nightmare compared to the BHP, but the eventual trigger will usually be better.

My CZ (a 75B SA) will also routinely shoot 1" groups at 50', outshooting my BHP with a match barrel fitted.


Larry

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

From Bud's a base hi power $822.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_145/products_id/31000

From Buds a CZ 75 SA for $522.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_82/products_id/411536718

Quite frankly I do not think the BHP is 57% better then the CZ to justify the 57% higher price.

BHP will give you hammer bite, its trigger is not as good, it does not have a beavertail, its external controls are (safety and mag release) smaller , the cz has better sights, and 3 more rounds.

Now granted the hi power is slightly smaller, but for my money the CZ is the much better buy and I would be willing to bet more accurate too.

Just my opinon.

 

[rellascout]

Quite frankly I do not think the BHP is 57% better then the CZ to justify the 57% higher price.

BHP will give you hammer bite, its trigger is not as good, it does not have a beavertail, its external controls are (safety and mag release) smaller , the cz has better sights, and 3 more rounds.

Now granted the hi power is slightly smaller, but for my money the CZ is the much better buy and I would be willing to bet more accurate too.

Just my opinon.

Buds is $100 too much on that particular gun. CDNN is a better source. If you know where to look BHPs are around for $700.

Most of what you are sighting as the advantages of the CZ are completely subjective. Some people don't like beavertails. I personally do not use the mag release except when the gun is empty and I am resassembling it. I experience no hammer bite from the BHP. Again subjective opinion or preference does not apply to anyone but the person giving it.

For me there is no 9mm gun that fits my hand better except maybe the 1911 in 9mm. YMMV. This is why threads like this are so funny. Almost none of the info, which is subjective opinion, applies to anyone but the person posting it. I would never claim that the BHP fits all people like a glove. I would not claim its the most accurate combat 9mm, even if that is the case in my hands, because it is meaningless to anyone but me because you do not have my hands. My muscle memory, my grip. my trigger finger etc.....

Things that are not subjective like the cost of a gun. The fit and finish of one product vs another. The design of the product or its ease of use, assembly or gunsmithing are not opinion. They have a much higher objective standard but in the end people do not want to talk about those. They want to talk about all the subjective points which do not really translate unless you are talking to your clone.

You seem to be changing your stance now on parts and smiths, one of the objective points you attempted to make. Do you still believe that the CZ 75 has more aftermarket parts and gun smith support?

I personally wish the CZ75 fit my hands better. They are solid guns and when I used to be able to get them for $300 they were an outstanding value and the short comings in their fit, finish and materials was forgiveable. Now at $500 + I am not so forgiving. The only CZs I still have in the stable are a P01 and a CZ82. Both of which I love. Its your money so spend it on what you like. I personally think the BHP is a better overall value. It holds resale value better than the CZ and its fit, finish and parts are all superior to the CZ75B. YMMV

 

[rellascout]

My CZ (a 75B SA) will also routinely shoot 1" groups at 50', outshooting my BHP with a match barrel fitted.

Have you put both on a ransom rest? It might be that the CZ 75 simply fits you better. Personally I have found that both the stock CZ75 and the BHP are more inherently accurate than I am. For me it is always the Indian not the arrow that is the weak link.

 

[Marshall]

Rellascout has it right IMO.

It's all subjective.

You see, to me, I just can't get past the huge trigger guard, the shallow slide, the extension of the rails, the overall chunkier feel of the CZ and, I would just a soon not have the beavertail poking me. Hi Powers don't bite me. Add to that the history of the BHP and the quality of the gun inside and out, I would be upset with myself for dropping almost 6 bills on the CZ and not being satisfied when I could have spent a little more and bought the better gun, for my taste anyway.

I'm happy we have the choice though, because one does not fit all, and that's what it's all about in the end.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

Buds is $100 too much on that particular gun. CDNN is a better source. If you know where to look BHPs are around for $700

Ok, then where? You simply saying you can get new HP's for $700 does not make it true. And I am sure I can find new 75 SA for less then that price. Please provide a link of a new HP selling for $700.

Most of what you are sighting as the advantages of the CZ are completely subjective.

Not really, its common knowledge that the HP has hammer bite for alot of people.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowerandHammerBite.htm

The larger and more visible sights on the CZ are easier to shoot.

THe larger external controls on the CZ are easier to manipulate.

Out of the box the CZ will have the lighter and crisper trigger.

BTW the quality of the CZ steel is first rate, yes the interior finish might be a bit rougher, but the quality of the steel used is equal to the hi power and both of these guns will out last what the average shooter ever puts through them.

How many rounds do you think Angus, Matt Mink, and Adam Tyc have put through their CZ's over these years?

How many top shooters use Hi powers? If the design was so good why has it not been adapted by ipsc shooters like the 1911 and CZ designs have?

1911 pattern guns rule the competition world, CZ designs are 2nd.

Race guns are the pinnacle of handgun manufacuring, most high level competition shooters shoot more rounds in a few months then most casual shooters will in a lifetime Competition weeds out all non hackers.

 

[rellascout]

Um, yes there is,

http://czcustom.com/

You are really holding too that? One link to Angus' shop. That is your proof of the vast aftermarket support CZ has?

VS.

Bill Laughridge of C&S Customs http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=CP108
Jim West http://www.wildwestguns.com/
Novak: http://www.novaksights.com/customguns/BHP/index.html
Don @ Action Works http://www.theactionworks.com/browning.htm
Garthwaite: http://www.garthwaite.com/
Ted Yost: http://www.heirloomprecision.com/

And these are just some of the big names that work on them... There is no comparison.... :banghead:

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

CZ smiths

http://czcustom.com/

http://www.matthewmink.com/

http://www.miossigunworks.com/

Mike Eaglesheild at CZ USA also does custom work.

BTW, the fact that more smiths work on a particular gun does not imply there is more aftermarket support, just that the aftermarket support for that particular gun is more consolidated.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

The OP should go to store that has both the HP and CZ SA and handle them and test fire them if possible and make his decision based upon that.

Anything else is subjective.

 

[rellascout]

Ok, then where? You simply saying you can get new HP's for $700 does not make it true. And I am sure I can find new 75 SA for less then that price. Please provide a link of a new HP selling for $700.

Call CDNN. Did you miss that part of the post you quoted. I stated clearly where you can get a $700 BHP NIB. They have had them in stock for $699 for over 6 months now.

More subjectivity... it is amazing. Competition might be the pinnicale for you but it is not the pinnicale for others. Your criteria and therefore your conclusions are narrow and subjective. For many reliablity is the pinnicale. For some it might be aesthetic value. For others it is accuracy @ 7 yards or @25 yards. What makes your subjective personal criteria universal? The OP never mentions gun games as part of his buying criteria. If gun games are your thing great. State that and then people can understand the subjective criteria that you are using to form your opinions.

As you mentioned 1911s are the #1 race gun. Does that mean that they are the universal "best choice" for all? I love the 1911. It is a great platform for me. Its feel in the hand and its layout simply match me. Its trigger for me is superior to almost any other gun I have ever shot but I would never claim that these subjective observations are universal. They apply to and relate to me not necessarily you or anyone else.

For many people the 1911 simply does not work. Occupying the #1 and #2 spot in a vaccum does not make either of them the universally superior choice for everyone? Your conclusions are false because your premises are false. Your premise and your conclusion is are based on the idea that subjective factors are objective. That is logically impossible. Something cannot be both A and not A at the same time.

The larger and more visible sights on the CZ are easier to shoot.

THe larger external controls on the CZ are easier to manipulate.

Out of the box the CZ will have the lighter and crisper trigger.

None of which matter if the gun does not fit your hand. If the length of pull is out of spec for you.... which brings us right back to subjective factors.

PS for me I have always found CZ triggers to be gritty right out of the box. Most of them clean up on their own after a lot of dry firing or about 500 rounds. BHP triggers out of the box are stiffer but smoother and once you remove the magazine disconnect and change out the hammer spring you are good to go. Neither gun is perfect right out of the box. YMMV

 

[rellascout]

BTW, the fact that more smiths work on a particular gun does not imply there is more aftermarket support, just that the aftermarket support for that particular gun is more consolidated.

?????

Each shop is limited in their capacity. Each shop can only work on so many guns a year. More or less aftermarket support is defined by the capacity of the market. More capacity = more market support. Less capacity= less market support. So the arguement you are attempting to make is that the 4 shops you have listed constitute more market capacity than is available for the BHP.

http://czcustom.com/ http://www.matthewmink.com/ http://www.miossigunworks.com/ Mike Eaglesheild at CZ USA also does custom work.)

These 4 shops constitute the bulk of people who specialize in CZ custom work. The list I gave you on BHPs is the tip of the iceberg. If you look around you will find many more professional qualiy gunsmiths that can do work on a BHP, due to its elegant and relatively simplistic design, compared to the number of shops that will work on a CZ. As pointed out by other posters the CZ75B has a much more complicated trigger group which makes it more difficult to work on. IF less people work on the CZ 75B then the BHP the logical conclusion the only logically conclusion one can draw is that the CZ75B has less aftermarket support than the BHP. Why not simply acknowledge you are wrong on the facts on this particular objective point.

 

[Fastcast]

Gentlemen, all opinions are subjective and it seems we're all full of our opinions.

In defense of Philo. His claim that CZ rules the Hi-Power in the competition scene is not an opinion but a fact.

That fact is not up for debate and scrutiny. Whether competition is your thing or not, really doesn't matter, there's no denying it's a feather in CZ's cap.

There's a reason competition shooters choose 1911s & CZs over Hi-Powers.....Those reasons may be subjective but they're undeniable.

With that said.....Everyone should own one of each!