CZ trigger problem

[bountyhunter]

CZs are not fundamentally different than other DA/SA guns;

Actually, the DA trigger mechanism used by CZ is very bizarre and unlike any I have seen on other guns.... and the most resistant to getting very smooth and "linear". The SA trigger is standard and very easy to lighten and improve. Just cut the hammer hooks down in height a bit, and reface the sear. I was able to get the SA trigger on my 85 Combat down to 3# (very smooth), but the DA is 8# and not linear like most DA pulls. The DA mechanism has a very strange "ramp" effect with a release lever so it gets harder right near the break point. It is genuinely annoying. The SA pull is no problem.

For the record, "camming" on the SA pull is not a defect which CZ would fix, it is designed in... and for a good reason. It is the result of some "design margin" in the sear/hammer face angles to prevent hammer follow. And the large face areas are insurance against wear long term. This is a combat service pistol built to go a long time between repairs. The light, sharp breaking triggers require "skating near the edge" of the angles that give you hammer follow. In many cases, a really "trick" trigger job will go south in a few thousand rounds as the edge between the primary and relief cut on the sear wears... and the gun starts with hammer follow.

Those of us who tweak our own guns take that as the price of a light trigger, but the CZ is pretty well designed for it's intended purpose.

I will guarantee you one thing: If you take the sear out and "flat smooth" the face using 600# papaer and oil, then do the following: radius (round over) the sharp tip of the sear against the paper (don't go crazy, you just want to break the edge). Then assemble and lube with a mix of FP-10 and grease on those faces, you will get a much smoother SA pull. It will still be a long pull and the hammer may cam a bit, but if the motion is glass smooth, it will be very easy to shoot.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Thanks Bounty Hunter.

I have to admit I was a bit cranky about this yesterday. I was home from work with some kind of throat infection and in no mood for the run-around I got on the phone when I tried to call CZ-USA.

I think I'm going to try to have my gun improved as you suggested, then make it a dedicated .22. For some reason the camming doesn't affect my shooting as bad with the Kadet kit. I think the excellent sights help a great deal. I think I'll try to pick up a Glock 34 for centerfire target shooting.

I was busy at work today so I was unable to call CZ, but from what I've been reading it sounds like I'll be going with Jim anyway. First I'll check out Hopkins. The people who run the store seem decent.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I have and have had a bunch of CZs, and haven't found them resistant to becoming smooth. Linear, however, is a slightly different problem. But a smooth trigger pull makes that less of an issue.

The geometry is different, but NOT the way the parts works. A good gunsmith can smooth it out pretty easily. I've had several done that way, very inexpensively.

Re: Glock 34...

I have a customized 75B SA, a wonderful Browning Hi-Power (from the '60s), an improved CZ-85 Combat, and a Glock 34. I shoot the 34 in competition more than any of them... Interstingly, its the only gun I've got that lets me reach both the mag release AND the slide release without having to change my grip a little.

 

[browneu]

Sorry for the delayed post but I just got a single action only 75B and it doesn't cam like my other CZs do. Perhaps others with a single action only CZ can confirm this but the trigger breaks nicely with no camming. I am wondering if it is because it only has the single action mechanism.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Most of the parts are the same on the SA and DA/SA guns. The difference is that you're not transitioning from DA to SA. the "geometry," as noted above, is weird -- probably to reduce the manufacturers liability.

A gunsmith familiar with the gun can get rid of the camming and can make the gun both smooth and linear (or close enough as to not matter) -- but it takes jigs and knowhow.

In fact, you can swap out the trigger, get a trigger that is adjustable for both overtravel and take-up, and basically turn your gun -- if its not a decocker model -- into an "enhanced" SA. (I say "enhanced," as not all SA models come with two-way adjustable triggers; some come with overtravel adjustment only -- and a plastic trigger, too.)

After you swap it out, the new trigger may still need work, but you'll find it much different and, arguably, improved.

That said, I'd rather have someone rework the existing trigger of a DA/SA gun and keep the ability to start from hammer down. (Lets you shoot in two divisions in IDPA, rather than just one.)

 

[dleong]

Not much I can add to all the good information that has already been presented in this thread, except to mention that the CZ's trigger pull can oftentimes be noticeably improved by simply installing a lighter hammer spring. The factory hammer spring is rated at 20 lbs., and one can usually get away with installing a 16 lb. spring without compromising ignition reliability across most brands of commercial ammo.

Note that the lighter hammer spring merely reduces the trigger effort in both SA and DA modes. It does not eliminate the grittiness or reduce the pre-travel in the trigger pull. In addition, it might be necessary to install a heavier recoil spring to make up for the loss of initial resistance provided by the hammer spring against the slide's rearward movement.

I have 16 or 17 lb. hammer springs installed in all of my CZs (except the striker-fired CZ 100), and have not encountered any light strike problems with my handloads. In fact, my 40S&W 75B has the smoothest and lightest trigger pull of all the handguns I currently own.

(By the way, LB, I am located in the Twin Cities too!)


DL

 

[bountyhunter]

The factory hammer spring is rated at 20 lbs., and one can usually get away with installing a 16 lb.

I have had the Wolff reduced power 15# spring in my CZ-85 for years and have yet to have a misfire. It reduces the DA pullw weight significantly, the SA only slightly.

 

[bountyhunter]

I have and have had a bunch of CZs, and haven't found them resistant to becoming smooth.

They can definitely be made smooth-ER, but the point in the DA pull where the trigger bar has to slide across the angled ramp on the bottom of the sear block (and in the process, release the hammer) is a definite "hitch" in the pull. If you are used to pulling on guns with the simple design like Beretta (where the trigger bar simply engages a hook on the tail of the hammer and pulls until it slips off) you will not like the "hang point" in the CZ's DA pull. It is not so bad you can't shoot it, it is just not a smooth trigger design.

 

[DT Guy]

Mmmm...I got my 75B SAO, and it cams like the devil...actually resembles a DA pull :banghead:


Gritty, rough, LOOOONG trigger pull on this baby-must have been a Friday afternoon gun!

Still shoots about on par with my custom 1911, though, so I guess it's getting a trigger job....


Larry

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Does yours have the metal trigger?

Is it adjustable for overtravel only, or can it be adjusted for take up, too?

There apparently are three SA triggers:

1) plastic, adjustable for overtravel only.
2) metal, adjustable for overtravel only.
3) metal, adjustable for overtravel and takeup.

I suspect you have 1) or 2). The third trigger would solve the LONG trigger pull issue for you, but would not address the grittiness. CZ-USA should have them back in stock, now.

I have a 75BSA that previously belonged to PCRCCW. It has trigger 3). He had a local gunsmith tune it. Its one of the best single-action guns I've shot; the gunsmith was very good. (PCRCCW told me, since then, that the guy moved away, and nobody knows where he moved. That fellow had a gift.)

While they make them, I've yet to encounter one of the more-rare DAO guns; I suspect that trigger would be an adventure, unless it was very, very smooth.

 

[Redhat]

I have a 75B and the trigger seems fine to me. I find that proper trigger control can eliminate small issues with "Non-Competition" triggers. I use a Beretta M9 at work and the CZ feels better to me. Focus on sight alignment, press trigger straight back and hold to the rear. As long as the pull is consistent from shot to shot, I can get a feel for it and it doesn't affect accuracy (my CZ is the most accurate combat handgun I've ever had).

I use to have Glock 23 and it was an okay work gun, but when the trigger released it felt like a mouse trap letting go.

Overall it just seems some folks are hard to please, they want to spend $350 for a pistol and then expect it to have a trigger like a custon 1911 or Langdon Beretta. As for me, I stopped switching guns so much and concentrated on learning to shoot the CZ so my trigger finger don't get confused

 

[bountyhunter]

I find that proper trigger control can eliminate small issues with "Non-Competition" triggers. Focus on sight alignment, press trigger straight back and hold to the rear. As long as the pull is consistent from shot to shot, I can get a feel for it and it doesn't affect accuracy (my CZ is the most accurate combat handgun I've ever had).

Well, sure.... if you're going to use good fundamentals..... any gun can be shot accurately.

Most of us rely on making the trigger better to compensate for our lack of abilities!

I agree about accuracy. My CZ-85 is WAYYY more accurate than one could expect a $400 gun to be, and my $700 Browning HI-Power that now rests permanently in my safe has been spraying shotgun patterns since I bought it many years ago despite trigger job, new barrel, and a lot of practice. Some guns just don't shoot straight.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There's an interesting thread on the CZ-Forum right now by LDD, who talks about the geometry of the hammer hooks and sear, and how (specifically) to recut them so that the "hump" (my term, not yours, but "stacking" would probably also be correct) is done away with. Jim Miossi, of Miossi Gun Works seems to get the same results in much the same way -- Jims tells where to find the proper jigs to make it a far easier, more error-proof process.

As you point out, just stoning/polishing isn't going to do much to change that "hump", but changing the geometry will.

I've got a couple to which that has been done. Very nice, very smooth, and virtually no "stacking."

(By the way, I had an ANIB WWII P-38, a Manurhin-made version, with the star on the slide, that was like your Browning. I didn't replace the barrel, but could NEVER get it to shoot groups... I traded it, even, for a pre-B CZ-75; the dealer thought he was getting a deal, and so did I.)

 

[bountyhunter]

For the record, the only way to eliminate camming entirely is to use what is called a "radius cut" on the sear face such that as the sear rotates, the surface in contact with the hammer hook maintains the same distance from the sear pivot. very few people use this because the typical sear jig will only cut one flat angle and a second angle "relief cut".

Radius cut sears give very smooth pulls.

 

[bountyhunter]

Here's the post from CZ forum:

"I have found the camming and poor trigger to come from two sources.

One, the sear and hammer hooks lock on an angle so that when the sear lifts to disengage the angle pushes the hammer back before it breaks. The angle interference is for safety but can make a trigger really hard. If the sear is not smooth and/or the trigger hooks have cutter marks on them the trigger roughness will be compounded.

Only way to correct this is to do a trigger job and make the sear and hook engagement straight with the rotational movement. The reason some of the old pistols have a good trigger is that the angle interference has just plain worn off over time.

Two, the sear/safety housing will typically be loose in the frame. When the trigger bar pushes on the sear lever (on the left side only) the whole mechanism will rotate counter clockwise and since it also has some slop to and fro, the whole thing moves rearward camming the hammer before the sear disengages. To check for this problem put your safety on and pull on the trigger. Ideally the sear will not move but most do, you can see the whole assembly wiggling around. For a simple fix you can shim the sear housing tight to the frame...see my post on the previous page titled "CZ action improvement" or something like that.

IMHO you can never get a proper trigger on a CZ without tightening up the sear housing first. Usually if you want to waste $80 or so just take a CZ to a lot of these so-called "gunsmiths" for a trigger job."



"Only way to correct this is to do a trigger job and make the sear and hook engagement straight with the rotational movement."

That is the "radius cut" I referred to before. The surface of the sear face has to be curved so as it rotates, the sear surface remains the same distance from the sear pivot point.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Redhat wrote:

As long as the pull is consistent from shot to shot, I can get a feel for it and it doesn't affect accuracy...

I agree completely, and that's the problem in a nutshell. The trigger pull does not seem consistant. It seems like the camming is of a different duration every time I shoot. That is the reason I have such trouble shooting the gun.

I've been practicing with the gun like crazy, both with 9mm and .22LR. My frustration reached peak level the night I wrote this original post, when, after shooting maybe 400 rounds through the gun, I borrowed a guy's Glock 26 and put all 10 rounds through the 10 ring at 25 feet. This after spraying shotgun patterns all night with the CZ. (I should note that I was shooting at a 25-YARD target, with a very big 10 ring.)

 

[PCRCCW]

Lob,
I truely feel your pain.....after 24+ CZ's Ive got a CZ40B with the same problem.
Its just the "luck of the draw" its your first one.....

The trigger on mine is very very inconsistant, in fact it drives me nuts. There is a gun works on the CZForum that can shim the sear/hammer assy inside the frame and give you a trigger job at the same time, but will cost you.

I understand why your frustrated by the whole thing.....Im pissed at my 40 and will probably shim it myself.....Im known to jump into pools with both feet and not look for water

I can group with mine but it takes an act of God, a full moon and a couple of dead chickens sacrificed.

Shoot well...............

 

[Pilot]

Lob,

Find someone in you area who has a CZ-75B or something similar, especially a PCR. Shoot them and see how you do. I would get this trigger worked on pronto. A good trigger job is worth it. Neither of mine needed it, but its sounds like yours does

 

[PCRCCW]

Well, Lobotomy.....I fixed mine.

Its freakin cake.....so much easier than Id expected it to be. I took out the sear/ejector assembly and shimmed it with a feeler guage.........010" or ten thousands of an inch. I cut it down smaller than the size of the part as to not interfere with anything and drilled a 1/8" hole for the safety pin to go through and hold the whole thing in place. Put it back togethor and POOF!

Now the trigger is as good as my PCR and thats GOOD. All of the movement
is gone from the assembly.

With the safety on, pulling the trigger results in NO movement of the hammer now.
Ill link you to a couple of things that may help.....this info is from a CZForum article.
Removal of sear/Ejector Assy

It took a while to get it back togethor, but was pretty straight forward.

I now have a CZ40B that I have to bench rest to see what it did to the accuracy........... Ill bet its night and day.........

Shoot well...........

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

I put a set of Wolf springs in my CZ, and it helped quite a bit. It is working much better, and my understanding of the gun is also much improved. I realized that I modifying my shooting technique a bit might accomplish as much as a trigger job. From shooting my Glock, which is the gun I've shot most, I have developed a technique of pulling the trigger to the "cocked" position, then slowly squeezing to the break point, which is very definite and extremely consistant. This technique works well with Glocks.

What I have discovered from practicing self-defense drills is that when shooting quickly from a low-ready position, I shoot the CZ much better than the Glock. This is because I squeeze the trigger much more quickly and more decisively.

That, I realized, is the key to shooting the CZ well. I have been practicing my technique, where I make the final squeeze more quickly and decisively, and my shooting has improved dramatically (except now I probably will need to retrain myself on the Glock). I have been enjoying my CZ very much, thanks to the new springs and my new understanding of the firearm.