Cz52 stronger than the TT?

[Novus Collectus]

Now I have been wondering something about some people's claims that the CZ52 is weaker than the TT33 due to a number of factors, but usually it is pointed out the chamber has thinner walls or something like that.
I have a question for those who say the CZ52 is weaker. If it is so weak, then why was Czech Tokarev pistol ammo (not the stripper clip stuff I have read about) hotter than Tokarev ammo issued in all the other countries that used the TT33?

 

[roscoe]

Read this thread here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=235156

 

[Novus Collectus]

I posted in that thread and I never got a good enough answer. While some Czech ammo is loaded kinda weak like for a broom handle Mauser (I wonder if that is why it is on stripper clips), there is other military Czech ammo as hot or hotter than modern S&B ammo. http://1896mauser.com/ammo.htm

Sellier and Bellot is Czech and it is loaded to over 1,500 ft/s. Figured they would load it to Russian power at around 1300-1350 ft/s if they were worried the guns in Czechoslovakia couldn't handle the high power.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

Well, my CZ-52 crushed one of its rollers while shooting nothing but S&B.

I replaced the roller and it has been fine ever sience, only peened the locking piece a little bit, but if it was so strong and/or overbuilt, i imagine it would have never crushed one of its own locking mechanism piece-parts that was not dammaged, just through normal shooting with factory ammo.

I have also seen CZ-52 chambers busted wide open on more then one occasion from surplus ammo, and have never heard of TT-33's ever doing either one of these things. But then again there are probibly a whole lot more people shooting a whole lot more cheap surplus ammo though CZ-52's in general right now then there are shooting TT-33's in comparable ammounts.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

And, ive never come across any pictures like this of TT-33's

 

[Novus Collectus]

And I doubt that same super hot pink box ammo was never fired out of a Tokarev either. That ammo was not the hot Czchekoslovakia ammo, that was the super, super hot ammo that probably would have blown a PPSh up.

This is from where your pictures came from:

Ammunition-test results reported by one of the owners of a blown CZ52 on April 21, 1999, indicate the sample ammo in question generated an AVERAGE of 46,000 c.u.p. with some rounds spiking to an incredible (and extremely dangerous) 55,000 c.u.p., pressures more commonly found in magnum rifle cartridges! The tests were obligingly run by the Accurate Gunpowder Company.
Please, do not misconstrue this article to be a condemnation of either the CZ52 or 7.62x25 calibre in general. It is neither. I shoot and enjoy my CZ52 more frequently than many of the other pistols I own. This is a specific warning about one specific batch of ammunition from one specific country of origin.

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bad.htm

If you think the TT will fare any better, then go ahead and shoot that bad ammo out of it.....but I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

[jonnyc]

For me, bottom-line is very simple:
I have seen and heard some reliable reports of fatal damage to CZ52s, but I have never even heard a rumor of any such damage to a TT. Both have been around for a long time and have digested (or attempted to) just about any ammo out there. I seriously doubt there is any surplus Tokarev ammo in circulation that has been fired in a CZ but not a TT.

 

[Risasi]

I've heard the opposite, CZ > TT

The CZ is strong, and can be loaded with some hot loads. But I wouldn't trust most of them much past about 1650fps. I can't speak for the TT as I've never shot one. I suspect neither are strong as most make them out to be.

A: They are old. (Not that there is anything wrong with that). They weren't designed for hot rodding the ammo like some people do.
B: There aren't nearly as many of them as the 1911 or Glock. Less guns = less disaster scenarios.



I used to run some hot ammo through my CZ. I didn't chrono all of it, but some of the stuff I had was in the 1800+ fps range.

I stopped using my CZ altogether when the slide separated and lifted off of the frame. Took me a half an hour to un-jam the thing. That was when I decided my hot loading handgun days were over. I still don't know if I got hold of some PPSH ammo, or what...


[EDIT] Huh, I learned something new. Check this out: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=22071
If I read it right, the consensus is that the action on the CZ is stronger, but the barrel is weaker?


Novus, you might want to ask Clark. That is, assuming he didn't manage to kill himself...


[EDIT2] Wow, nevermind. I found you posting in other threads RE: CZ52. You're more in the loop than I am.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

I have actually shot, and still have some of that exact year, factory, and lot headstamp of bulgarian 7.62x25 that i shot some of though my CZ-52, never busted it open, but it did crush one of the two rollers while shooting S&B after having shot a rather large ammount of hotties. I dont know about CUP or the max pressure, but some handloads with H-110 that i made with the same pulled projectiles shot faster. (1770fps with an 86 grainer)

At this time i dont have the money, the reloading data that i lost to my laptop crashing, or the time to get to the bottom of this, but rest assured this is something i care enough about to actually figure out, and if the CZ-52 is a stronger action i then a romanian TT-33 ill find out, even if it requires blowing one up by accident in the process. The fact is that my CZ52 in otherwise exelent condition, with a Wolff 18.5 LB recoil spring crushed one of its rollers, and with factory S&B ammo. I admit i had hot-rodded it a bit before that, but it had been stripped and cleaned before the few hundred factory rounds ended up flattening the left locking roller, and it wasn't even starting to peen out or anything. It was destroying itself with the 18.5 LB spring and S&B ammo, i ended up putting a wolff 14.5 (factory strength) recol spring back in and replacing the rollers and shooting it a whole lot more with both factory, handloads, and the "super-hot oh so dangerous bad-bulgarian" as mentioned on that site, and it held up fine with the weaker spring untill i ended up getting rid of it in a trade. Bottom line, with the higher power (18.5 LB) spring, the locking piece and rollers were taking an obvious beating that they could not sustain. That boosted my muzzle velocity about 75-100 FPS, but was destoroying the action in the process. Peening out the locking piece and all.

I have not taken the time to put a TT-33 though such paces, but i will end up doing it within the near future. I know what achieved muzzle velocitys and loads were stressing my CZ-52 to the point of it not being able to cope, and will find out pretty soon weather or not the TT can take it or not.

All i was pointing out were the fact that i have heard of quite a few busted CZ-52's and never one TT-33.

 

[NickHTK]

Reading this only makes me nervous when a CZ52 comes up for sale. Its a case of "where has it been?"


Not to highjack the thread, but... what are the more common breakdowns due to the hot loads?

 

[Browning]

I've always actually heard it the other way around, that the CZ-52's action was much stronger than the TT-33. Which is one of the reasons that the Czechs felt that it was okay to shoot that high velocity ammo through them while the rest of Com-Bloc ammo (besides the Bulgarian which equally as hot as the Czech) was kind of watered down in comparison.

But to me the end user it doesn't matter so much as I'm not a engineer that's going to be building a firearm and I'm not a reloader so I don't have to worry about exceeding a certain chamber pressure limit with handloads. Just so long as I shoot decent ammo from companies with a good reputation I should be okay.

 

[tinygnat219]

Meh... unless you are shooting supertacticooluber handloads through the CZ-52, it's fine. Just like any gun, don't overdo it.

 

[makarovnik]

To me the TT-33 seems more robust. The barrel on the CZ-52 looks thinner and the rollers in the CZ can be a problem. Nice thing about the CZ-52 is all the neat aftermarket parts available on makarov.com. I would recommend the new heat treated rollers and the nicest firing pin setup they have.

The picture of the blown CZ was due to firing the super-hot Bulgarian sub-gun rounds. Just an opinion but I'm not sure my TT-33 would survive after firing some of those nasties either.

 

[RPCVYemen]

I had a CZ-52 that developed a crack in slide near the ejector port. I had the gun for a year, and never shot anything but S&B through it. I bought it from Empire Arms, and I have no idea what had been shot in it previously.

Mike

 

[JohnKSa]

My understanding is that the CZ-52 ACTION itself is stronger than the TT action but the CZ-52 barrel and slide don't surround the cartridge with as much metal.

Translation: It's easier to blow up a CZ-52 than it is to blow up a TT, but given a steady diet of hot ammo that is still within the CZ-52's design parameters (i.e. not hot enough to blow it up), it will probably last longer than the TT due to the stronger action.

Well, my CZ-52 crushed one of its rollers while shooting nothing but S&B.

Was this a CZ part or was this a roller supplied with one of the aftermarket barrels? There was an aftermarket barrel maker that shipped a lot of barrels with soft rollers.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

Was this a CZ part or was this a roller supplied with one of the aftermarket barrels? There was an aftermarket barrel maker that shipped a lot of barrels with soft rollers.

No it was an orriginal roller and barrell
Im aware that some of the made in korea aftermarket barells had crappy soft rollers that would flatten/peen out rather then roll.

 

[anjdrifter]

Have a quick question just joined this site . have a CZ52 which I like just got a tt33 from AIM after field stripping it to rid of the cosmoline I was putting back the recoil spring sleeve and dont remember where it was when I took it apart MY question does the curved end of the sleeve go in front of the slots or does it go in one of them (on Barrel) I have it back to gether and it seems like it alright but not sure I did put it in front of theslots...
It seems like it is awful tough to rack... It was the same way before I did this so that is not new

 

[brigadier]

The T-33 is a more heavy duty gun overall. If there is one thing that would make me nervous about the CZ-52, it's the thin walls of the slide, not the chamber. The CZ-52 barrel is plenty durable enough. The loads that are making CZ-52s explode are way above the maximum SAAMI pressure rating which means that they will run the same risk in the Tokarev.
Either one is a good gun though I personally like the balance of the CZ-52 and the CZ-52 is a much easier ugly duckling to make a beautiful swan then the T-33. On the other hand, the T-33 comes with some goodies that the CZ-52 does not.