guyfromohio
Member
At a range, you wouldn't need to. But the purpose of DA is to carry safely without using a safety.
DA/SA Question
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At a range, you wouldn't need to. But the purpose of DA is to carry safely without using a safety.
huntsman
Member
^ yep decock and leave safety off. I was at a class and a gentleman was using a Beretta 92, he drew and fumbled trying to take the safety off and the instructor rode him hard about it, I was using my 4566 and always carried it safety off so I didn't have any issue.
Sistema1927
Member
Not all. For example, the CZ82/83 do not have decockers. To get it into DA mode you need to carefully pull the trigger while restraining the hammer.
Ironicaintit
Member
That's what I do anyway, just out of habit.
I have a few pistols that are DA/SA, but I always treat them as SA. My dad hammered that into me as a default setting, and it just stuck. I have a couple pistols with decockers, but I kinda forget that they're there.
No there are quite a few that don't , most CZs and many of their clones, the original Beretta 92 had a frame mounted safety and could be carried cocked and locked.
The DA/SA was largely pioneered by the Walther P38, and that action is part of the Beretta M9 antecedents. The US Army had pistol trials back in 1954 with the specification for 4" 9mm guns with DA/SA actions. There was a great deal of admiration for the P38 in armament circles post war, both Colt and Hi Standard submitting non-1911 designs for the trials. S&W jumped in later with the M39, another DA/SA patterned more closely to the German gun. If the Army had spent the money and sold off 2.5 million 1911's, we'd have likely been carrying 9mm DA/SA automatics 30 years earlier. Of course, most civilians would have bought up the 1911's given the chance
When automatics began replacing revolvers in LEO holsters the S&W was the preferred favorite in DA/SA and there is a generation of law officers now retiring who carried it daily. The first shot placement in DA is a minor issue in field use - under most circumstances the confrontational stress is larger and the reason of the first shot is to stop, not score a higher numbered ring on the perps torso. Complaints about it are largely based on competition range shooting. I haven't heard LEO/mil chafing that their first shot should have grouped tighter in a gun fight.
Given that is the professional view of most combat arms, it's why DA/SA was the mainstream auto design up until Glock was introduced. Some LEO agencies and a lot of armies still prefer it. It's the American shooting community who cherishes SA guns who are slow to accept it. Professional grade duty guns have been DA/SA for decades.
When automatics began replacing revolvers in LEO holsters the S&W was the preferred favorite in DA/SA and there is a generation of law officers now retiring who carried it daily. The first shot placement in DA is a minor issue in field use - under most circumstances the confrontational stress is larger and the reason of the first shot is to stop, not score a higher numbered ring on the perps torso. Complaints about it are largely based on competition range shooting. I haven't heard LEO/mil chafing that their first shot should have grouped tighter in a gun fight.
Given that is the professional view of most combat arms, it's why DA/SA was the mainstream auto design up until Glock was introduced. Some LEO agencies and a lot of armies still prefer it. It's the American shooting community who cherishes SA guns who are slow to accept it. Professional grade duty guns have been DA/SA for decades.
tpelle
Member
I have a S&W 908 that is DA/SA, and it came from the factory with a spurless hammer:
It's really a pretty nice little pistol. 9mmP, and just a smidgen larger than my Bulgarian Makarov. Has a decent trigger pull in DA, and a conventional decocker safety. It's sort of the last gasp of the old Model 39 design. I really should carry it more.
tpelle
Member
Speaking to the CZ75B (the "traditional" model), the safety does not decock the hammer. You can run a CZ75B like this.
To load it, insert a magazine and rack the slide to chamber the first round. The hammer will be left cocked, and the safety will be off. Now you have a choice:
For single action mode you just flip the safety lever up. The hammer remains cocked and the pistol is on safe. You can treat it just like a 1911 or Hi Power at this point, and holster it and go about our business.
For double action mode you must lower the hammer manually to half cock. To do so, grasp the hammer and pull the hammer back slightly, and keeping the hammer firmly under control, pull the trigger and let the hammer go slightly forward. Now release the trigger. The sear will raise into position to catch the hammer at half cock and on the 75B model, with the firing pin block, the firing pin block will engage the firing pin to prevent it from moving forward. Now let the hammer down until it stops on the half cock notch. The safety can not be engaged, but the hammer can not go forward from this point except by pulling the trigger.
For manually lowering the hammer, you can grasp it with the weak hand between thumb and forefinger, or you can just use the strong hand thumb. Some people place the weak hand thumb over the rear of the slide to block the hammer while the trigger is pulled just in case there's a slip, then, once the trigger is released, move it out of the way.
If the idea of manually lowering the hammer over a live round gives you a scare, CZ does make a decocker version of the CZ75 called the CZ75BD. And if the idea of carrying on half cock seems unsafe, note that the BD model decocks the hammer to the half cock notch.
tpelle
Member
One more thing to mention. It is not unheard of that people are frightened of a SA pistol, such as a 1911, being carried Condition 1 (with the hammer cocked over a live round and the safety on). Sometimes you will find that they will adopt the practice of lowering the hammer over a loaded chamber, then thumb-cocking the hammer on the draw. This exposes them to an accidental discharge both on lowering the hammer AND on cocking the hammer during the draw (when they may not have gotten a full grip yet).
If you are one of those folks, I suggest that you carry your 1911 hammer cocked and safety on over an empty chamber for, say, a month. If you find that the safety never switches itself off, or that the hammer never is found down, then you should feel better about adopting "live" condition 1. If still not convinced, then maybe you should think about adopting a different platform.
If you are one of those folks, I suggest that you carry your 1911 hammer cocked and safety on over an empty chamber for, say, a month. If you find that the safety never switches itself off, or that the hammer never is found down, then you should feel better about adopting "live" condition 1. If still not convinced, then maybe you should think about adopting a different platform.
kBob
Member
With the original CZ75 (not CZ75B or later) the CZ factory advised Carrying the pistol with the chamber loaded and the hammer on half cock. This made that first DA pull much easier and greatly reduced the DA/SA first shots spread.
I tried it for a bit, but went to Cocked and Locked carry as with my 1911 types anyway.
With the P38 I did a fair amount of single shot DA drills to master that first shot control. Then I worked on two shot drills with the aim of getting that second shot closer to the first. Under pressure one could still find that first shot had made a hole a bit out side the SA group......but more than close enough to "count" (at 7 yards all in the A zone). With the P38 if I had the time for a longer shot I did thumb cock for the first shot.....never got charged at and trampled by a single soda can!
I believe the "Little Tom" pistols actually predate Walther's use of DA/SA triggers.
When my wife was using a Browning BDA .45ACP (later imported under its own name Sig 220 'euro model' )as her HD gun and carry gun, she did tend to thumb cock before firing the first round. She loved the gun except for the long reach for the first DA shot.
-kBob
I tried it for a bit, but went to Cocked and Locked carry as with my 1911 types anyway.
With the P38 I did a fair amount of single shot DA drills to master that first shot control. Then I worked on two shot drills with the aim of getting that second shot closer to the first. Under pressure one could still find that first shot had made a hole a bit out side the SA group......but more than close enough to "count" (at 7 yards all in the A zone). With the P38 if I had the time for a longer shot I did thumb cock for the first shot.....never got charged at and trampled by a single soda can!
I believe the "Little Tom" pistols actually predate Walther's use of DA/SA triggers.
When my wife was using a Browning BDA .45ACP (later imported under its own name Sig 220 'euro model' )as her HD gun and carry gun, she did tend to thumb cock before firing the first round. She loved the gun except for the long reach for the first DA shot.
-kBob
If anyone reading this post has a DA/SA pistol with a decocker, please use the decocker! Lowering the hammer while pulling the trigger is not safe. You may get away with it for a lifetime, or in a brief moment of distraction it may slip. I'm not an expert on all decockers, but on those I'm familiar with, the gun simply cannot fire while decocking, the hammer can't hit the firing pin, there is a safety mechanism in place blocking it.
Further, if you did ever need to decock in a stressful situation (like to reholster after an actual shooting), the last thing you want to do under an adrenaline dump with shaky hands and fried nerves is manually try to drop a hammer.
(Some people have had trouble dialing "911" under stress, can't get the fingers to want to cooperate.)
Mastering the DA shot is not difficult at all. I've seen people put more effort in trying to avoid it with laughable results (thumbing the hammer back [really slow], putting the first shot in the dirt...really?!) *
I personally like the DA/SA for a carry/HD gun. No safety to worry about, yet the first pull is heavy and long, this is good insurance under stress (everyone "thinks" they keep their finger off the trigger under stress until ready to fire, many do not and don't even realize it). One the fighting starts, after the first shot, you get a short reset and light pull from then on. When the smoke clears, hit a little lever and safely put it back in DA mode.
My practice is to engage the threats I know about in front of me, scan the front 180, decock as I come back to a high ready and turn around scanning the rear 180 (using Position SUL if I see anyone else behind me that doesn't need ventilating).
* Edit: What I mean here is...if someone was to put in the training time to quickly and reliably master cocking the hammer on the draw, they could have just mastered the DA shot with less effort!
Further, if you did ever need to decock in a stressful situation (like to reholster after an actual shooting), the last thing you want to do under an adrenaline dump with shaky hands and fried nerves is manually try to drop a hammer.
(Some people have had trouble dialing "911" under stress, can't get the fingers to want to cooperate.)Mastering the DA shot is not difficult at all. I've seen people put more effort in trying to avoid it with laughable results (thumbing the hammer back [really slow], putting the first shot in the dirt...really?!) *
I personally like the DA/SA for a carry/HD gun. No safety to worry about, yet the first pull is heavy and long, this is good insurance under stress (everyone "thinks" they keep their finger off the trigger under stress until ready to fire, many do not and don't even realize it). One the fighting starts, after the first shot, you get a short reset and light pull from then on. When the smoke clears, hit a little lever and safely put it back in DA mode.
My practice is to engage the threats I know about in front of me, scan the front 180, decock as I come back to a high ready and turn around scanning the rear 180 (using Position SUL if I see anyone else behind me that doesn't need ventilating).
* Edit: What I mean here is...if someone was to put in the training time to quickly and reliably master cocking the hammer on the draw, they could have just mastered the DA shot with less effort!
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Ironicaintit
Member
Further, if you did ever need to decock in a stressful situation (like to reholster after an actual shooting), the last thing you want to do under an adrenaline dump with shaky hands and fried nerves is manually try to drop a hammer.
....when the smoke clears, hit a little lever and safely put it back in DA mode.
For me, if it ever comes to a time that I'm reholstering after a shooting, I'm not going to try to decock it anyways....I'm putting the safety back on in condition 1, and then reholstering.
I understand what you're saying and appreciate it. But I'm a SA guy, and all my habits are built around the 1911 style of handling, and have always set the hammer down on a live round when I'm making it "safe" as I remove it from my person (bedtime, or securing it in the car).
I'm never "casual" when doing it, and am well aware of the repercussions of an accidental slip up.
Decockers are just a mechanism I don't tend to think about, so don't use.
Some people aren't comfortable with condition 1 either, so they use a DA. It's just a matter of taste, and really has nothing to do with being more or less safe IMO.
herrwalther
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It depends on the model. Some DA/SA hammer guns have a decocker and others have a decocker/safety. The difference is if the firearm is just a decocker, it is a spring loaded switch that safely drops the hammer from single action to double action.On these firearms, the switch will return to its start position when released. Good examples are most SIG handguns like the P226. In the case of decocker/safety, the switch lowers the hammer and is also a hammer block that prevents the hammer from moving when the trigger is pulled. On these, the decocker/safety will remain in the position you leave it in. The Beretta M9/92FS and Walther PPK/S are good examples.
Most DA/SA firearms will be in SA when you rack the slide. Because when you pull the slide back, the hammer gets pushed down in the process.
I agree that is fine if you have a gun that can be put on "safe" with the hammer back. No issues then. I only have real experience with the M9 and P226 style decockers where there is no cocked and locked option.
Sistema1927
Member
Decockers, like any mechanical device, can fail. Here is a thread on the subject:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-often-do-decockers-fail.465666/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-often-do-decockers-fail.465666/
huntsman
Member
^ that's why one should always point the muzzle in a "safe" direction when decocking.
That thread only has 1 mention of an actual failure of a decocker resulting in a discharge with a P89. I don't know how a P89 decocker works, but using the decocker on a Beretta results in a hunk of metal being rotated in front of the firing pin.
These one-off anecdotes are fascinating from a psychology perspective. 1 dude says a friend of his had a decocker failure on a P89 once and legions of readers are squeezing triggers and manually lowering hammers on live guns with no safeties in place at all because "all devices can fail." It's like being worried about self defense and always carrying a gun just in case, then going drinking and tubing down the river w/o a care in the world. Do 100,000 iterations of de-cocking vs. manually lowering a hammer 100,000 times and compile the statistics...I can't imagine it would even be remotely close.
And before someone says "I've done it my whole life and never had a problem" Well, you are a sample of one, haven't done it 10's of thousands of times...and your life ain't over yet, there is still room.
Of course, the muzzle should be in a safe direction while decocking...it should be always anyway.
tpelle
Member
One handgun which has gained quite a following lately for pocket carry is the little Polish P64, which is quite similar to the Walther PPK, although not quite an exact copy. As folks have gained experience with these little pocket-sized pistols a few issues have come to light.
These pistols have a decocker/safety. That is, when the safety is operated, it decocks the hammer and locks the firing pin (with one caveat, which I will discuss in detail below).
One thing that has been learned is that, if the hammer is decocked and the safety is off, if the hammer becomes snagged on something, maybe the lining of your pocket, such that the hammer is drawn partially back and then is released, the pistol can fire. Note that with the safety off the firing pin is no longer blocked, and the Poles omitted any sort of safety notch or half-cock notch on the hammer. Consequently you must always carry one of these pistols with the hammer decocked and the safety in the safe position.
The other thing that may cause an accidental discharge with one of these pistols is if the firing pin is not installed correctly in the slide. The firing pin has a lug, or tab, that should project horizontally out of the side of the firing pin. As the decocker is rotated into the decock position, a machined slot in the safety body envelopes the rear end of the firing pin and sort of grabs this tab. This is what locks the firing pin. It is possible to install the firing pin in the slide so that this lug, or tab, is pointing downwards instead of sideways as intended. In this situation, even if the safety is applied, the firing pin remains unlocked, and could contribute to an accidental discharge.
Note that there have been instances reported where the little safety lug is broken off of the firing, which renders the firing pin block inoperative on that particular pistol, regardless of the position of the safety.
It's a good idea to be familiar with the mechanics of your carry pistol and to inspect it for proper condition, or have a QUALIFIED gunsmith inspect it if you feel that you are not qualified or sufficiently knowledgeable. Also another reason to always point the pistol in a safe direction during loading or unloading, and always use a good holster.
These pistols have a decocker/safety. That is, when the safety is operated, it decocks the hammer and locks the firing pin (with one caveat, which I will discuss in detail below).
One thing that has been learned is that, if the hammer is decocked and the safety is off, if the hammer becomes snagged on something, maybe the lining of your pocket, such that the hammer is drawn partially back and then is released, the pistol can fire. Note that with the safety off the firing pin is no longer blocked, and the Poles omitted any sort of safety notch or half-cock notch on the hammer. Consequently you must always carry one of these pistols with the hammer decocked and the safety in the safe position.
The other thing that may cause an accidental discharge with one of these pistols is if the firing pin is not installed correctly in the slide. The firing pin has a lug, or tab, that should project horizontally out of the side of the firing pin. As the decocker is rotated into the decock position, a machined slot in the safety body envelopes the rear end of the firing pin and sort of grabs this tab. This is what locks the firing pin. It is possible to install the firing pin in the slide so that this lug, or tab, is pointing downwards instead of sideways as intended. In this situation, even if the safety is applied, the firing pin remains unlocked, and could contribute to an accidental discharge.
Note that there have been instances reported where the little safety lug is broken off of the firing, which renders the firing pin block inoperative on that particular pistol, regardless of the position of the safety.
It's a good idea to be familiar with the mechanics of your carry pistol and to inspect it for proper condition, or have a QUALIFIED gunsmith inspect it if you feel that you are not qualified or sufficiently knowledgeable. Also another reason to always point the pistol in a safe direction during loading or unloading, and always use a good holster.
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Panzerschwein
member
Yes, one person even shot himself in the pants with one. He decided not to carry it after that. Also, these have legendarily bad DA trigger pulls. Literally so hard. So not only do you have to carry this with the safety on, you either have to fight that awful first DA pull or cock the hammer before firing. With a Makarov PM, the safety/decocker system is much safer. Some will comment on the free floating fire pin, but Bulgarian Makarovs were certified drop safe by the state of California. They are very much safe to carry with the safety off, decocked, with a round in the chamber. The P64? Not so much.
The P64 is just no a very good carry gun, or service gun for that matter.
Hangingrock
Member
My example of the S&W-M4506 with twenty-six-thousand plus rounds fired thru it, I've never manually thumb cocked the hammer to fire it. The firing sequence has always been first round fired DA with subsequent shoots fired SA unless I've decocked the hammer by applying the safety then resumed firing with the safety in the firing position for first shot DA. The DA shot is not that difficult to master with practice.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Another point that I didn't see mentioned is that most guns with decockers (and almost all newer guns those with safeties) now also have firing pin blocks.
Many firing pin blocks BLOCK the movement of the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled -- and generally until the trigger is pulled fully to the rear. Even if a decocker malfunction caused the decocker to fail, many designs will still prevent an accidental discharge if the trigger isn't also pulled.
Many firing pin blocks BLOCK the movement of the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled -- and generally until the trigger is pulled fully to the rear. Even if a decocker malfunction caused the decocker to fail, many designs will still prevent an accidental discharge if the trigger isn't also pulled.
Shawn Dodson
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DA/SA are nothing more than modes of operation of a common DA trigger mechanism. With a DA trigger the gun can be fired in DA mode for the first shot. The reciprocating slide then cocks the hammer and the trigger oeprates in SA mode for subsequent shots until the hammer is decocked. Likewise, if the reciprocating slide can cock the hammer then you can manually cock the hammer to fire the first shot in SA mode.
DA/SA is dumbed down terminology to describe a common DA trigger on an automatic pistol.
DA/SA is dumbed down terminology to describe a common DA trigger on an automatic pistol.
Ironicaintit
Member
It's just shorthand, not dumbed down.
SAO, DAO, SA/DA.
BWDIKIJAI (but what do I know I'm just an idiot)
Shawn Dodson
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A single-action trigger performs, get this, a "single action". It releases the hammer. If it did anything else then it wouldn't be an SA trigger.
Adding "only" (i.e., SAO) to describe a single-action trigger is unnecessary, redundant and illiterate. An SA trigger can't perform any other action.
DA/SA is not a trigger mechanism. It's a dumbed down term for those who don't understand how a DA trigger operates on an automatic pistol.
DAO correctly describes a DA trigger mechanism in which the hammer can only be cocked by operating the trigger.
Adding "only" (i.e., SAO) to describe a single-action trigger is unnecessary, redundant and illiterate. An SA trigger can't perform any other action.
DA/SA is not a trigger mechanism. It's a dumbed down term for those who don't understand how a DA trigger operates on an automatic pistol.
DAO correctly describes a DA trigger mechanism in which the hammer can only be cocked by operating the trigger.
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