DA trigger proficiency

[KJS]

Is anyone else here not at all proficient in firing a revolver double action? I think I can already guess the answer, given this is the revolver area (as opposed to a 1911 fan club).

I hesitate to even ask, knowing some may deem not being any good at firing DA as blasphamy in revolver land. In my defense I'd note there was a time when even the best gunmen were not skilled with DA, seeing how SA was all that existed.

Trying for accuracy, which I find quite hard by itself, I always cock the hammer manually.

I was just curious how much DA shooting others do. And when you shoot DA how much does your personal accuracy decline? Or are you so skilled that you manage to shoot as well or better in DA?

I know its possible for some to shoot very fast & very accurate DA. I'm thinking of Jerry Miculek as an example, though he's stunning which would explain why team S&W hires him.

 

[elano]

I put up a small target on my bedroom wall. When I get bored, I dry fire at it. This has greatly improved my skill with DA revolvers.

 

[MrBorland]

I shoot DA almost exclusively, and am as accurate with it as shooting SA. A good DA trigger helps, too.

In any endeavor, practice is key. Dry fire helps. So does keeping that thumb off the hammer while at the range. Maybe shoot local IDPA matches with your revolver?

 

[MCgunner]

I cannot say that I'm "as accurate" DA, but with my Taurus M85, I'm close. That gun has an extremely smooth DA pull. It's a pretty light pull, but smooth is a lot more important than light. 6" plates at 25 yards fall with regularity in DA with that gun.

 

[Sam1911]

I fire DA probably better than 5,000:1 vs. SA. Most of my revolver shooting is fairly close-range (under 35 yards generally) and I can be just as accurate with DA as I am with SA.

If I was going to rest the gun on a bench and take a very long shot at a very small target, I'm sure I'd go SA as there is inarguably less disturbance of the gun and a shorter trigger pull, but even out to distances greater than I normally shoot you can train yourself to stage the trigger and make accurate DA shots.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I guess handgun hunting has proven to me I'm more accurate SA. I hunt with SA guns a lot, too, contender, Blackhawks. Absolutely NO reason to have DA capability in a hunting/outdoor revolver. But, up close and personal with a defense gun, DA is the way.

Everything has its place. I have done IDPA, I've done IHMSA. I have multiple handgun interests.

 

[1911Tuner]

Well..."Proficient" means different things to different people.

To the man who practices fast shooting at 10 feet with a J-Frame...he's proficient if he can fire all five rounds in 2 seconds and keep'em all in the 9-ring.

To the PPC shooter who shoots at 25 yards, he has to be proficient enough to chew the X-ring out of the target.

Firing a 2-pound revolver with a 10-pound trigger pull presents its own challenge. The trick is to grip the gun firmly enough to minimize movement while you stroke the trigger.
The other trick is a smooth, continuous stroke that doesn't hesitate at any point, and one that doesn't keep pulling after the hammer breaks. That takes practice and concentration...and repetition...until it becomes automatic.

Just as important is the trigger release. Smooth, and keeping the finger in contact with the trigger is the key to minimizing gun movement while you reacquire the sights and the target.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I easily shoot my annual qualification courses with any of my revolvers and score as good as I do with a semiauto. I can plink 8"x8" steel targets at 20 yards or so pretty easily...I figure I'm "proficient".

 

[MrBorland]

I'm sure I'd go SA as there is inarguably less disturbance of the gun and a shorter trigger pull,

I'd argue it, sort of.

Depending on technique, one may be able to break the SA sear with less disturbance. The gun doesn't actually fire at this moment, though - the hammer first travels through it's arc and hits the primer, and the gun must not be disturbed during this process, either - and herein lies the Great Single Action Compromise: The hammer has longer to travel, so lock time is longer. The hammer also picks up more momentum, so it jars the frame & muzzle more upon hammer strike. Personally, if I were to compete in bullseye, I'd do it with an über-smooth DAO gun with a radically bobbed hammer.

 

[Sam1911]

Ooooh... good point!

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

The whole trick to double action shooting is lots of dry fire.get snap caps and use them.
What your trying to do is counter to what you have done previously, in that always before any task required the combined use of your fingers all at once doing any particular task. Where they have always worked together, now your trying to get, 3 fingers and a thumb, to hold an object perfectly steady, while the remaining finger,works independent, without disturbing the others. What is called for is enough repetition, to get it hard wired and automatic, as a response and not a consious effort.

So, with the gun aimed at a small object concentrate on pulling the trigger with out pulling the sights offline. Focus on keeping it exactly still, and pulling straight back.

Do it with both hands, it will actually help with either hand by doing both. I don't know why, but it does. One day you may be blessed, with a pair of matching revolvers. And be really glad you did. No reason not to do it with SAs either.
It helps with point shooting(not useing the sights) also.

When they refer to stageing or stacking(not the right word) the trigger, they are talking about pulling steady back to the point right before it breaks, then adjusting the sights just right before it drops. Lots of guys do it, and have good luck with it. I didn't stick with it, long enough, I have always felt like, one day it might become automatic to stop before let off, unconciously, and that can't be good. One thing you can do is glue a pencil eraser in the rear of the trigger guard, just before let of,that makes a pretty effective 2 stage pull. If you have large hands, you can have your finger in just past the distal joint(first knuckle), and with your finger tip feel the rear of the trigger guard, just before the break point, as long as you practice full stroke that might work ok. While this all works best with double action revolvers, it works fine with Glocks too. If your a cop practice, with shooting your back up at the same time as your duty gun,and switch hands, regular.

The focus is for it to be automatic, just like throwing a ball, with out having to conciously think about it.

 

[ExMachina]

For me, a smooth DA trigger is actually easier to shoot accurately. The long trigger stroke (ie, not staging) seems to help me focus exclusively on the sights and I usually get a "surprise" break every time. And, even when I do anticipate the break I never seem to push the shot as much as with a SA.

I'd also add to MrBorland's point and confess that I find SA revolvers (SAA's style frames in particular) especially difficult to shoot accurately--dry firing these guns reveals them to move quite noticeably in my hands, both upon trigger release (generally a function of trigger weight and angle grip) and upon hammer impact on frame (mostly a function of firmness of grip). This is all mostly because a lack of practice, but the "touchiness" of the SA revolver design really surprised me.

So I actually believe that a good DAO-style gun will generally encourage more-accurate shooting with less practice. If I were training a new shooter, I'd probably insist they only shoot DA when starting out.

 

[Sam1911]

When they refer to stageing or stacking(not the right word) the trigger

Right. Staging is what you can learn to do with the trigger pull on a very long or high precision shot to pause for a moment and dress your sight picture just before you let the hammer fall. Some very good shooters do this, some very good ones prefer a smooth straight-through pull.

"Stacking" refers to a tendency of some kinds of gun mainsprings to increase resistance as the trigger reaches the end of its stroke. Some shooters prefer that feeling as a warning that the hammer is about to fall, and may use that spring stacking to help them stage the trigger. Others prefer a more even, stack-free spring resistance pattern for a smoother pull.

 

[MrBorland]

I'd also add to MrBorland's point and confess that I find SA revolvers (SAA's style frames in particular) especially difficult to shoot accurately--dry firing these guns reveals them to move quite noticeably in my hands, both upon trigger release (generally a function of trigger weight and angle grip) and upon hammer impact on frame (mostly a function of firmness of grip). This is all mostly because a lack of practice, but the "touchiness" of the SA revolver design really surprised me.

Yep - I had a Ruger Blackhawk, and that hammer really whacked the frame. Given their well-deserved reputation for building accurate SA revolvers, I can't help wonder how accurate a Freedom Arms double action revolver would be.

BTW, for those who haven't seen it, here's my demo showing how little a very light hammer jars the frame in double action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI

 

[MCgunner]

I can put 6 rounds from my 6.5" .357 blackhawk into 4" from the bench at 100 yards. Some guys I know have trouble doing that with a rifle. I can tag a 10" target every time shooting Creedmore with same revolver, deer hunting decent. Yes, SAs are accurate. It's a different technique to shoot them, but they're tack drivers in the right hands. I've seen guys clear 40 of 40 from 50 yards to 200 at IHMSA with single action revolvers. I've never seen anyone at an IHMSA shoot fire DA. You might as well forget a DA gun has DA capability. Dan Wesson revolvers are popular in IHMSA and no one that is good fires DA with one.

Yes, without a doubt, single action is more accurate than DA shooting. This is inarguable with me until any of you DA guys can sit down and clear 40 of 40 IHMSA steel from 50 to 200 yards. I will be impressed if you can do that. Me, I shot a 7mm TCU barreled 10" contender when I was doing it. That particular gun, with an optic, will shoot sub MOA.

 

[ExMachina]

Yes, without a doubt, single action is more accurate than DA shooting. This is inarguable with me until any of you DA guys can sit down and clear 40 of 40 IHMSA steel from 50 to 200 yards.

The way I'm reading this thread, nobody here would argue with you.

DA simply has (what I think to be) an unfair reputation of being difficult to shoot. Certainly SA shooting should be more precise, but like all precision instruments, SA shooting can also be less forgiving of poor technique.

 

[MCgunner]

DA simply has (what I think to be) an unfair reputation of being difficult to shoot. Certainly SA shooting should be more precise, but like all precision instruments, SA shooting can also be less forgiving of poor technique.

Yeah, I'm being picky. I agree with this. For self defense shooting even out beyond 25 yards a bit, DA can be mastered to be nearly as accurate as SA shooting. I've also seen the PPC guys shoot. I never got involved in that, but those custom built PPC guns and the guys that were behind them were impressive.

Oh, and I also get sort of irritated when some guys claim the snubby .38 is only a "belly gun", good only at contact range, very inaccurate. No, THEY'RE inaccurate, NOT the GUN! My little M85 shoots 3" groups at 25 yards from the bench, plenty accurate. Yeah, I can shoot a longer sight radius better, but the snub is NOT just a contact weapon.

 

[Sam1911]

but the snub is NOT just a contact weapon.

I heard a rumor that Bob Munden agrees with you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk

 

[Old Fuff]

Well first thing, what revolver are you using and what are your expectations?

If you want to see what can be done, and how to do it, go to a bookseller, such as Amazon, and order up a copy of Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, by Ed. McGivern. Be aware that it was first printed in 1940, and first editions go for collector prices of around $100 or more. This is not what you need, as reprints go for about $30 or less.

Also consider buying a used copy of an excellent book that I believe is now out of print: No Second Place Winner, by Bill Jordan.

As for a revolver, if you want to learn, forget Smith & Wesson J-frame snubbies, that are hardest to master, and draw the line at a D-frame Colt, or a K-frame Smith & Wesson, and if you really want to see what a double-action trigger can be, buy a used Smith & Wesson (K-frame) Military & Police revolver made before 1946, with their old "long" action.

The book will explain what to do, and a lot of dry firing is necessary to build up hand and trigger finger strength. You can also use one of those squeeze type hand exercise gadgets designed to increase hand strength.

One other tip: Some folks try to keep the sights aligned while making a long, slow trigger stroke. Usually this does not work well. Remember that the sights don't have to be aligned until you get to the end of the stroke. Use the "sights aligned at all times," method when, and only when, you can make a quick stroke and not disturb the sights - and that will take time.

This will depend on your hand size, but if you slightly turn the gun to the right (for a right-handed person) you can extend your trigger finger further so that when you get to the end of the stroke the tip of the finger will lightly touch the back of the trigger guard, giving you a tip-off that the shot is about to be fired, and the sights should be aligned.

 

[jad0110]

I hesitate to even ask, knowing some may deem not being any good at firing DA as blasphamy in revolver land.

It's a legitamate question, there is no need to be ashamed or hesitant. The only thing that gets some of us stirred up is when someone throws up their hands way to soon saying "It can't be done!"

Mr. Borland touched on something I've instinctively known to be true, but never really acknowledged until I read his post; I knew that cocking the hammer raises the hammer back further, and that it strikes the frame harder. But I didn't associate this with presenting a SA conundrum, until I read his post. Excellent point.

Another angle for me is that I tend to jerk the trigger more frequently in SA than DA, when doing anything other than very slow, deliberate fire. When I shoot DA, I tend to be more consistent and steady with my trigger squeeze. For me, it really didn't even take that long to shoot DA about as well as SA. 200 to 300 rounds maybe. I was motivated though, I heard enough of the aforementioned "it can't be done" talk that I took it as a challenge. Today, well over 95% of my DA revolver shooting is done DA.

 

[9mmepiphany]

SA shooting can also be less forgiving of poor technique.

This is an excellent way to explain it.

I have had good luck helping new shooters overcome their flinch on the trigger by shooting DA instead of SA. The short/lighter SA just seems too tempting, to new shooters, to not snatch at the perfect sight picture.

I was one of those PPC shooter who tried to keep all 24 of my shots from 50 yards in the X-ring of a B-27 target...I was actually pretty happy if they would just stay in the 10-ring.

When shooting faster (with a DA/SA pistol), from the holster, in a "combat type situation", my 1st DA shot is usually just as accurate as followup SA shots out to a 15-20 yards. My mentor has comparable accuracy and speed out to 25 yards, but he slows down a bit when shooting at 50 yards

 

[4v50 Gary]

Build up your grip strength. Open and close your hands. Start with an open palm with fingers out-stretched. Now ball them up in a fist. Open the palm again. Repeat. Try to reach 180 times in a minute (best I could do is 150 times). This is a poor man's strength training exercise. Repeat it with your non-dominant hand.

Next exercise begins by loading the gun with snap-caps. Put a dime on the top strap. Aim the gun at a target dot and squeeze the trigger. You want to keep the sights on the target and develop a squeeze that is smooth enough such that the dime doesn't fall or slip. Once you get tired, do this with your non-dominant hand.

 

[Blue68f100]

If your gun is capable of shooting DA, you should learn how to do it proficiently. My first pistol was a Blackhawk 30 carbine. My second was a Custom 6" Ni Python. It was fairly easy to shoot it in DA because it's DA pull is ~5-6#. My original carry gun was a P229 DA/SA. I had to get trigger work done on it to remove the grittiness, and lower the 14# pull. After that I was able to shoot DA fairly good. It was my first shoot and I wanted it to be accurately placed. It does take practice to be proficient with DA. I shoot as much DA as SA when I go to the range. If a HD gun you do not need to be accurate to 25 yrds. Normally it will be close up and personal. Mastering the trigger takes a lot of dry fire practice. LaserLyte has a training laser that will help you with your dry fire. It has a inertia switch so it only blinks when the hammer drops. The kicker on DA is that your finger placement may not be the same as SA, particularly if you have small hands. This is why a lot of person prefer DAO over DA/SA.

Here in Texas you are required to prove proficiency for CCL. And that means if your gun has DA, you must use it. If I recall, about 40% of the shots were in DA. So if you can't shoot DA you will more than likely fail. Because all the shooting in by timer.

 

[Doc3402]

Am I as proficient DA as I am SA? For defensive shooting I would say I would be better DA. I get all my shots in a kill zone out to about 20 yards double action. After that single action is a must.

Something to think about in combat or defensive shooting. The next to the last thing you want to do is put 5 or 6 rounds through the same hole. The last thing you want to do is be the second one to get a shot off. Fire first, and be very happy with anything in the head or near the center of the chest. Repeat as necessary.

 

[451 Detonics]

I do very well with DA revolvers and SA semi auto...it is just muscle memory. Even when shooting fairly fast I stage the DA trigger, I bring it just to the breaking point, ensure the sights are where I want them and then break the shot. At speed it is an almost imperceptible pause in the trigger stroke. An easy way to learn is to glue a piece of pencil eraser on the inside of the trigger guard where it will act as a trigger stop. Leave it just long enough that the trigger contacts it just before the trigger breaks. You will quickly learn the feel of trigger cocking this way. Once you have built up muscle memory use an emery board to remove a tiny bit and leave the eraser there for a trigger stop.