DA trigger proficiency

[hemiram]

I used to dry fire all the time, and eventually got really good at shooting my S&W 28 and Dan Wesson 15-2 DA with heavy loads. It took a while, be patient. Just before I had to sell almost all my guns for financial reasons, I got a laser that went into the barrel ($$$$), and that was very useful in minimizing shake, not that I have much anyway compared to most of my friends in their 50's on up. When I was at the peak of my skills, I had to sell everything, and didn't start buying replacements until 2005, and by then, I stunk, to be honest about it. I do ok now, but I don't shoot remotely close to what I did 15 years ago, SA or DA.

 

[MCgunner]

You can always balance the dime. No need for a laser.

 

[deerhearse]

I fire DA probably better than 5,000:1 vs. SA. Most of my revolver shooting is fairly close-range (under 35 yards generally) and I can be just as accurate with DA as I am with SA.

If I was going to rest the gun on a bench and take a very long shot at a very small target, I'm sure I'd go SA as there is inarguably less disturbance of the gun and a shorter trigger pull, but even out to distances greater than I normally shoot you can train yourself to stage the trigger and make accurate DA shots.

I do the same as others have posted: In the last few moments of travel in DA mode with my GP100, there is a light click as the cylinder locks up. I use that final moment to adjust on target using the "1, 2" concept. "1" I hear the click and do final sighting, and when I am on target, "2" I pull the trigger the final distance of travel which is similar to SA and very minute.

A nice accurate way to shoot the GP DA with surprisingly exceptional accuracy.

I, too, use this type of method when dry firing for practice, scrutinizing where my sights are before and after the squeeze.

 

[MCgunner]

Staging is okay for placing shots when you don't have the SA option, but for me, DA is about FAST combat shooting and staging isn't the fast way. I pull the shot through in one smooth motion.

I do stage my Kel Tec P11 (DAO) when testing ammo for groups off a rest at 25 yards, but combat shooting, one smooth pull.

 

[MrBorland]

I have to admit I stage the DA trigger when shooting for tight groups, but IMO, it's a bad habit.

Staging the trigger really amounts to timing the shot, which most target shooters will tell you is pretty futile. In addition, the re-start of the pull itself makes it more likely you'll pull the sights offline. If your sights are aligned when you begin the DA pull, and your trigger control is good, they'll stay that way through the entire pull. If your trigger control isn't good, staging isn't likely to fix that. Finally, when you stage the trigger, you put yourself in "hold" mode, and you can easily hold for too long and end up making a bad and/or rushed shot.

I'm trying to break the habit, and finding it's a particularly tough one to break. I think it's a sign I'm more mentally focused on the goal (wanting a tiny group) than on the process (trigger control & sight alignment through the pull). When I stop thinking/worrying about the goal, I pull straight through without loss of accuracy. And because I spend less time holding, arm, grip and eye fatigue doesn't set in as quick.

 

[ExMachina]

Staging the trigger really amounts to timing the shot, which most target shooters will tell you is pretty futile. In addition, the re-start of the pull itself makes it more likely you'll pull the sights offline. If your sights are aligned when you begin the DA pull, and your trigger control is good, they'll stay that way through the entire pull. If your trigger control isn't good, staging isn't likely to fix that. Finally, when you stage the trigger, you put yourself in "hold" mode, and you can easily hold for too long and end up making a bad and/or rushed shot.

never thought of it this way but i think that you're right...should be easy enough to test too. gonna give it a try.

 

[MrBorland]

never thought of it this way but i think that you're right...should be easy enough to test too. gonna give it a try.

Something else I thought of, but it's important...mentally commit to the shot when you start your DA trigger pull.

It doesn't mean you can't abort if something isn't right in the leadup to the shot breaking, but a big part of the difficulty with overcoming the habit of staging is that staging allows one to get in the habit of remaining relatively uncommitted when they start the pull...after all, you don't have to commit until you come out of the stage, right? When trying to shoot without staging, though you'll likely still start the pull uncommitted, realize something's not right, then stage anyway, or get off a bad shot.

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

 

[oldfool]

count me in w/ McB and McG
never did believe in staging DA, not even when my hands were a lot better than they are now

if/when striving for tight groups at short range (12-15 yards), or small targets at long distances (soda pop cans at 30-100 yards), s-l-o-w SA is the only thing that works for me
but I throw more rounds downrange in DA than in SA, mostly at ~15 yards, "point shooting", mostly triple DTs, and just looking to throw some dirt on that pop bottle, and hit it a time or two in six... not nearly as discouraging as my scattergun groups on paper in DA mode
(I might not bounce that bottle a whole lot, but then again you wouldn't want to holding it right in front of you either)

 

[theboomer]

Have a S&W 642 dry firing does help in the practice, and the trigger pull.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I just had a perfect example of the DA vs. SA accuracy question yesterday.

A local shooter wanted his SO to try out a Kahr's DAO trigger before buying one for her. He shoots a Sig 220 and found that it is too large for her small hands. He couldn't find one to rent and I offered to let her try mine. Just to give her a feel for different trigger types, I also brought a Sig P6 (DA/SA) and a Springfield EMP (SAO)

After getting her grip straightened out...she was bringing her strong thumb down on the grip and throwing her shots due to the uneven grip pressure...she was shooting quite well.

She was equally accurate with the Kahr and the Sig P6, in SA (the DA trigger reach was a bit long for her)...shooting into 1"-1.5" at 5-7 yards. The EMP SAO trigger gave her fits and would barely stay within 4" at that same distance. When we tried shooting a bit faster, the rhythm of the DAO trigger stroke really helped her hold a tighter pattern.

This was a relatively new shooter shooter who had never handled any of these guns before. She naturally wanted to stage the DA trigger and to grip with the strong thumb...I'm glad I caught it early

 

[deerhearse]

Staging is okay for placing shots when you don't have the SA option, but for me, DA is about FAST combat shooting and staging isn't the fast way. I pull the shot through in one smooth motion.

I do stage my Kel Tec P11 (DAO) when testing ammo for groups off a rest at 25 yards, but combat shooting, one smooth pull.

For fast, non-staging shots the "1,2" method still works good. I was refering to target shooting and once one really gets the feel of the gun even with staging the shots it can be done reasonable fast. You "feel" the staging as you unflinchingly focus on the front sight and target.

But to each their own.

But I agree that staging is not for the type of shooting you refer too.

 

[MCgunner]

one smooth pull.

Actually, properly, I should have said "one smooth squeeze." My bad.

 

[Smaug]

I shoot DA almost exclusively, and am as accurate with it as shooting SA. A good DA trigger helps, too.

I've seen this said before, and I still think it is BS. Either the person is not very good with SA, or they have quite a lot of skill with DA.

The gun just moves around a whole lot more when shooting DA, up to where the trigger breaks.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The gun just moves around a whole lot more when shooting DA, up to where the trigger breaks.

So if the sights are aligned on the target, at the moment the trigger breaks, What difference does it make how much the gun is moving while it gets there?

I just took a brand new shooter out yesterday, had her shooting a Kahr CW9 (DAO) and than a Sig P6 (DA/SA) in SA and her groups (not patterns) were both right about 1.5" at 5-7 yards...with most of the shots atop each other. While these were both well used guns, they couldn't be called target grade by any stretch of the imagineation...they were both just carry/service guns

I've seen this said before, and I still think it is BS. Either the person is not very good with SA, or they have quite a lot of skill with DA.

Just because someone can't do something...due to lack of training...doesn't mean it can't be easily done. I only spent a couple of hours with the new shooter

 

[ExMachina]

So if the sights are aligned on the target, at the moment the trigger breaks, What difference does it make how much the gun is moving while it gets there?

that's a bingo

 

[clem]

I went to the state police academy, Arizona, in 1985. My agency was using S&W 686 (?) Combat Master Piece in .357 mag. ALL firing was done double action.

 

[MrBorland]

I shoot DA almost exclusively, and am as accurate with it as shooting SA. A good DA trigger helps, too.

I've seen this said before, and I still think it is BS. Either the person is not very good with SA, or they have quite a lot of skill with DA.

The gun just moves around a whole lot more when shooting DA, up to where the trigger breaks.

Since it was my claim originally, lemme chime in.

Below are 2 representative targets - same gun, same distance, same ammo. One shot DA, the other SA. Not very good with a SA trigger or very skilled with DA trigger? Dunno. But I do shoot about as well in either mode.

Shot Double Action:


Shot Single Action:


...and I shoot about as well with my strong or weak hand. Here's a target from a recent postal match. Same gun, same ammo as above. All shot double action, 2-handed, strong- (upper right) and weak-hand (upper left) only:



It's all about trigger control...




At any rate, whether DA is the way to go for target accuracy isn't really the OP's original question; but rather whether it's possible to achieve reasonable accuracy shooting DA. I think by now the OP ought to have gathered that it certainly is possible to be "accurate enough" shooting DA.

 

[DesertVet]

I have been shooting double action revolvers for over 22 years.
As a full time Law Enforcement officer I qualify at 25 yards twice a year with my Smith & Wesson J frames I carry as second guns (back ups). I often get looks or comments from my 20 something year old fellow officers who cant belive I can make head shots on qualification targets at 25 yards. I have outshot younger officers shooting thier issued duty pistols with my little snubbie on occasion. LOL.
Practice PRACTICE practice & you really CAN be accurate with a double action snubbie revolver. Dry firing A LOT helps so does a decent double action trigger to start with.

 

[KJS]

When they refer to stageing or stacking(not the right word) the trigger, they are talking about pulling steady back to the point right before it breaks, then adjusting the sights just right before it drops. Lots of guys do it, and have good luck with it.

I'm not really clear on the purpose of staging the trigger, nor even the exact definition. This would be where one slowly squeezes a DA trigger, right? But if somebody has the time to do such a slow & careful trigger squeeze why don't they simply cock the hammer? I thought the point of DA shooting was that it can be done faster than SA (though typically at the cost of accuracy -- with cost differing based on a shooter's skill).

I remember a challenge they had on "Top Shot" where they had to hold a Security Six in each hand and get them to go off at the same time hitting one target on the right and one on the left. They had to fire DA, each slowly squeezing the two triggers (which I guess would be staging -- though normal folks only do it with one gun & two hands). Those who saw that episode know both did poorly in that really challenging challenge.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm not really clear on the purpose of staging the trigger, nor even the exact definition. This would be where one slowly squeezes a DA trigger, right?

Actually no...that would just be a slow squeeze.

Staging a DA trigger is pulling it back, it can be done very quickly, to a point just before letoff and stopping to make a final sight adjustment, before squeezing that final amount to let the shot break

 

[MrBorland]

But if somebody has the time to do such a slow & careful trigger squeeze why don't they simply cock the hammer?

I opined earlier about The Great Single Action Compromise (I'll let you find & read it ). Also, one often changes their grip a bit to cock the hammer.

I remember a challenge they had on "Top Shot" where they had to hold a Security Six in each hand and get them to go off at the same time hitting one target on the right and one on the left. They had to fire DA, each slowly squeezing the two triggers (which I guess would be staging -- though normal folks only do it with one gun & two hands). Those who saw that episode know both did poorly in that really challenging challenge.

I remember it. It's a good example of trying to time a shot, which is what staging a trigger really amounts to (see post #30). As the contestants showed us, trying to time an accurate shot isn't very effective.

 

[Rexster]

Staging the trigger, such that one is listening and/or feeling for the bolt to drop into the notch in the cylinder, is really tantamount to single-action shooting, by using the trigger to cock the hammer. (Not all manufacturers use the term "bolt" for that part of a revolver.) As one who has fired a DA shot defensively, while in a state of body alarm reaction, a.k.a. fight-or-flight reflex, and handled firearms countless times while in a state of body alarm reaction, I do not believe trigger-cocking to be street-relevant. One will be unable to hear or feel the bolt drop into the notch.

So, I believe one should learn proper DA technique, if there is any possibility of firing a DA shot in order to defend self or others.

 

[doc.lonestar]

I own a ruger lcr - dao. I carry this firearm daily as my bug to my g30 edc.

I am able to center punch at 15 yards with the lcr but it takes me longer to get that type of accuracy compared to shooting my g30. compared to 3/7 yards I am able to center punch pretty quick.

imho the trigger is smoother and lighter than most dao revolvers I have shot - including some higher end models. for me the smoother trigger made a huge difference in my accuracy for defensive shooting.

 

[Smaug]

Yeah, the thing about staging the DA is that it really serves no purpose, except on a revolver with a bobbed hammer. If you're going to stage it, why not just cock it and shoot SA? Then, it is perfectly staged each time.

The original intention of DA was to allow faster follow up shots, and staging is really not fast.

 

[ExMachina]

Yeah, the thing about staging the DA is that it really serves no purpose, except on a revolver with a bobbed hammer. If you're going to stage it, why not just cock it and shoot SA?

As MrBorland already said, the best reason to stage a DA gun is that it approximates a single action shot w/o requiring that you change your grip. I find that on any Smith and Wesson revolver, my SA grip is different from my DA grip because of a) shifting to reach the hammer and b) the SA trigger release point is further back.

But this really gets back to perception that SA is somehow inherently more accurate to DA shooting.

The big thing that SA has over DA shooting (in practical terms) is timing--if you're trying to time your shot to match multiple factors (sight picture, breathing, wind, etc) then it's gonna be hard to do it as precisely with a full DA stroke.

So, staging would allow for better timing of a DA shot w/o requiring the shooter to shift his grip.