Zhivago
Member
I'm just curious if anyone had opinions on how the purchase of Dan Wesson by CZ in 2005 affect quality. Did quality improve? Stay the same? Get worse? Any benefits to getting a pre-CZ model as opposed to a post-CZ model? Thanks.
Dan Wesson and CZ
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Beagle-zebub
Member
Well, the Monson era was the peak of Dan Wesson's quality, at least with regard to the pre-CZ era, no? In that same breath, I was told that there were two other eras, and that one was the worst (which you could deduce by process of elimination, just about)--the question is whether that worst DW was the one directly before they were bought out.
They seem to make some pretty stinkin' nice firearms now, so they'd have to have been downright godly for them to have gotten worse on their way to their current state.
They seem to make some pretty stinkin' nice firearms now, so they'd have to have been downright godly for them to have gotten worse on their way to their current state.
The worst era for Dan Wesson was right after Seth moved the facilities to Palmer MA.
They were still using the original 70's era tooling to make the small frame and large frame guns.
When Bob Serva bought the company in 1996, he pretty much paid to have all the revolver tooling redone, so as it would be usable and produce excellent firearms. These guns are the Norwich NY revolvers.
The Norwich revolvers are of top quality- period. They rival(and sometimes exceed) the quality of the Monson Guns. I own 6 Monson revolvers- I can say 5 of those are fantastic, and I sure as hell hope the 6th one I just bought was worth the $600.
I've shot the Supermag Norwich guns, and I've shot the 4760. I'd just about give my hine teeth for a 4760.
The Dan Wesson 1911's were and are fine, fine handguns.
The purchase by CZ has been nothing but positive in my eyes, although I miss the Serva-era.
CZ has increased the use of top quality parts in the Dan Wesson 1911 line, and they slightly increased the price of their guns in the process. Their lack of fear in increasing prices has enabled them to sell a $1500-$1900 1911 for $800-$1200. CZ has also done a better job with distribution and sales, in my opinion.
CZ really brought in the working capital and corporate structure to keep the small company service and reliability- you're treated with respect, with kindness, and they act like you did them a favor by purchasing their product, and not the other way around.
Serva's DW was like that, but as the company was rapidly growing, sometimes there were delays on warranty repairs and sometimes a gun would have some issues and it would take a bit to get it right.
CZ still treats their customers like friends, but they've gotten the warranty and repairs down to an art- most people get 7 day or less turn around.
The market for the revolvers isn't really there anymore, so CZ hasn't brought out or reintroduced any revolvers just yet, but it still looks positive on that front.
Cliff Notes:
If you buy a Dan Wesson, the only way I'd say it is even remotely likely to be a lemon is if it says Palmer MA, and even then some damn fine guns were made.
Serva, Norwich NY, Dan Wesson: Great revolvers, great 1911's. Simply mind boggling value looking back on the quality for price.
CZ Era, Norwich NY, Dan Wesson: Same great service, actually even better. Even better guns, although the price went up. They're using even more boutique grade parts on guns still being sold for mass production prices.
DW Collection: 2 44 Mags, 4 357's, 2 Panthers, Pointman 7, Commander Bobtail, 10mm PM7, 10mm Razorback.
Still considering a 10mm Major.
They were still using the original 70's era tooling to make the small frame and large frame guns.
When Bob Serva bought the company in 1996, he pretty much paid to have all the revolver tooling redone, so as it would be usable and produce excellent firearms. These guns are the Norwich NY revolvers.
The Norwich revolvers are of top quality- period. They rival(and sometimes exceed) the quality of the Monson Guns. I own 6 Monson revolvers- I can say 5 of those are fantastic, and I sure as hell hope the 6th one I just bought was worth the $600.
I've shot the Supermag Norwich guns, and I've shot the 4760. I'd just about give my hine teeth for a 4760.
The Dan Wesson 1911's were and are fine, fine handguns.
The purchase by CZ has been nothing but positive in my eyes, although I miss the Serva-era.
CZ has increased the use of top quality parts in the Dan Wesson 1911 line, and they slightly increased the price of their guns in the process. Their lack of fear in increasing prices has enabled them to sell a $1500-$1900 1911 for $800-$1200. CZ has also done a better job with distribution and sales, in my opinion.
CZ really brought in the working capital and corporate structure to keep the small company service and reliability- you're treated with respect, with kindness, and they act like you did them a favor by purchasing their product, and not the other way around.
Serva's DW was like that, but as the company was rapidly growing, sometimes there were delays on warranty repairs and sometimes a gun would have some issues and it would take a bit to get it right.
CZ still treats their customers like friends, but they've gotten the warranty and repairs down to an art- most people get 7 day or less turn around.
The market for the revolvers isn't really there anymore, so CZ hasn't brought out or reintroduced any revolvers just yet, but it still looks positive on that front.
Cliff Notes:
If you buy a Dan Wesson, the only way I'd say it is even remotely likely to be a lemon is if it says Palmer MA, and even then some damn fine guns were made.
Serva, Norwich NY, Dan Wesson: Great revolvers, great 1911's. Simply mind boggling value looking back on the quality for price.
CZ Era, Norwich NY, Dan Wesson: Same great service, actually even better. Even better guns, although the price went up. They're using even more boutique grade parts on guns still being sold for mass production prices.
DW Collection: 2 44 Mags, 4 357's, 2 Panthers, Pointman 7, Commander Bobtail, 10mm PM7, 10mm Razorback.
Still considering a 10mm Major.
unspellable
Member
DW
For my part, I've been a bit disappointed with the push on the 1911 clones. Not that there is anything wrong with the pistol, but everybody and their brother makes a 1911 clone while only DW makes a DW revolver. I think the revolver would be selling better with some promotion. There really is no other revolver to match it. The 445 SuperMag is a very good concept.
S&W borrowed heavily from DW with the 460 & 500 whcih are in essance a 45 and 50 caliber SuperMag. But you have to draw the line between a revolver and a rifle somewhere. The 500 strikes me as overkill.
For my part, I've been a bit disappointed with the push on the 1911 clones. Not that there is anything wrong with the pistol, but everybody and their brother makes a 1911 clone while only DW makes a DW revolver. I think the revolver would be selling better with some promotion. There really is no other revolver to match it. The 445 SuperMag is a very good concept.
S&W borrowed heavily from DW with the 460 & 500 whcih are in essance a 45 and 50 caliber SuperMag. But you have to draw the line between a revolver and a rifle somewhere. The 500 strikes me as overkill.
Zhivago
Member
Thanks for the responses. The DW 1911 is what I'm looking at, trying to decide between that and Kimber for the most part, looking for high quality at a reasonable price. Of course, still considering S&W and Colt, and others too. Too many choices!
Just bought a DW Bobtail Commander. Fit and finish is the finest of any gun I've ever owned. First 400 rounds down the pipe in one flawless sitting.
I don't know how they compare to other eras, but as a previous poster said; if the current ones aren't as good, the previous ones must have been really spectacular!
Joe
I don't know how they compare to other eras, but as a previous poster said; if the current ones aren't as good, the previous ones must have been really spectacular!
Joe
ReadyontheRight
Member
The pre-CZ Bob Serva-era Dan Wesson 1911 is an excellent pistol.
Does anyone know -- does the CZ Dan Wesson 1911 still have the controversial Cross in the logo?
Does anyone know -- does the CZ Dan Wesson 1911 still have the controversial Cross in the logo?
Cougfan2
Member
Don't know about the cross in the logo. My CBOB, which I bought right after the first of this year has a very clean slide. The only printing on the slide is the work "Classic on the left hand rear of the slide. I've seen earlier DW 1911's that have more "advertising" on the slide.
bluetopper
Member
Comparing past revolver quality to present manufacture 1911 quality is apples to oranges.
Dan Wesson has suspended revolver manufacturing anyway. They are a small shop and it's all they can do to keep up with the demand if their 1911's.
In short..........I haven't seen a 1911 for twice the money I'd trade a current production Dan Wesson for, if that answers your question. Kimbers aren't in the same league.
Dan Wesson has suspended revolver manufacturing anyway. They are a small shop and it's all they can do to keep up with the demand if their 1911's.
In short..........I haven't seen a 1911 for twice the money I'd trade a current production Dan Wesson for, if that answers your question. Kimbers aren't in the same league.
Okiecruffler
Member
I can't say anything for the quality of their current guns, but I had to buy some parts for my revolvers last year. They couldn't have been more helpful.
I believe pretty much the minute that CZ became owner, the cross was no more.
I've heard, but cannot confirm this(so why the hell am I repeating it ?) that is the reason why some of the first CZ-era guns had blank slides. I've heard that CZ wiped the old logo off off some of the stainless guns.
I've heard, but cannot confirm this(so why the hell am I repeating it ?) that is the reason why some of the first CZ-era guns had blank slides. I've heard that CZ wiped the old logo off off some of the stainless guns.
I just picked up a CBOB ... $740 out the door. Someone wrote "BLEM" on the label on the side of the box. Best I can tell there's a TINY dot right next to the grip... you've really got to hunt for it. I saved about $300. Fine by me!
The fit and finish is unbelievable... name brand goodies throughout. I've had mine out twice and shot about 200 rounds... not a single hiccup. This is absolutely the finest 1911 for the price.
The fit and finish is unbelievable... name brand goodies throughout. I've had mine out twice and shot about 200 rounds... not a single hiccup. This is absolutely the finest 1911 for the price.
Zhivago
Member
Where can I find info about stuff not listed on the CZ website? Like the PM9?
Cougfan2
Member
I just picked up a CBOB ... $740 out the door.
I hate you!
I hate you!
bluetopper
Member
DW made a few PM9's (9mm 1911) in '06 and they just completed a run of making 30 this year. I just got #22 a month ago.
I hear they might come out with a few more. Best bet is to monitor gunbroker.com.
I hear they might come out with a few more. Best bet is to monitor gunbroker.com.
MICHAEL T
Member
I have a new DW bobtail my Kimber is junk next to it in fit and finish. My 7 Colts hide in safe . In other words the DW is the best of my 1911s by a long shot. Its also the most accurate.
I want more DWs
Zhivago
Member
What about low end Wilson Combat stuff, STI, and Smith and Wesson? How does DW stack up against their 1911s?
Zhivago,
I own at least one of each of the M1911s you list.
Dan Wesson is currently the best-priced best-quality M1911 maker in the $0-2000 range. You will need to get a mid-higher end Les Baer to match the Dan Wessons currently available.
If you keep hesitating, you deserve to be told that your distributor is all out of 'em.
I own at least one of each of the M1911s you list.
Dan Wesson is currently the best-priced best-quality M1911 maker in the $0-2000 range. You will need to get a mid-higher end Les Baer to match the Dan Wessons currently available.
If you keep hesitating, you deserve to be told that your distributor is all out of 'em.
And believe me, you can get told your distributor is out of the DW's. Then to buy one you're going to pay dearly on gunbroker.
Thankfully, a guy in TX was cool enough to work a trade with me for his Bobtail for one of my .44 Magnum's.
Here's why I say go ahead and start cracking on getting yourself a DW: Because when you find out how good they are, you'll end up paying for even a high markup Dan Wesson, because it's still a bargain for what you're getting.
I know that I have two of the Panthers, which were less expensive models back in the Serva Era. Two Kimber owners(an Army Captain and another Kimber guy) say that the Panther's are better than their 1200 Kimbers. An owner of one the lower level STI guns has tried to buy my blued Panther for some time, and he has offered the STI. The reason I haven't traded to sell the STI for more money, is that Panthers are now selling for $600-$700 in many places, though you can still find a bargain. You can always get more money, but, there aren't any more new Panthers, and the ones out there still seem to appreciate in price.
Consider this, the Pointman Minors could be purchased for between $400 and $575 when new. Now, they routinely sell for $600 plus used on Gunbroker. Lookup PM2 and PM3 if you don't believe me.
Thankfully, a guy in TX was cool enough to work a trade with me for his Bobtail for one of my .44 Magnum's.
Here's why I say go ahead and start cracking on getting yourself a DW: Because when you find out how good they are, you'll end up paying for even a high markup Dan Wesson, because it's still a bargain for what you're getting.
I know that I have two of the Panthers, which were less expensive models back in the Serva Era. Two Kimber owners(an Army Captain and another Kimber guy) say that the Panther's are better than their 1200 Kimbers. An owner of one the lower level STI guns has tried to buy my blued Panther for some time, and he has offered the STI. The reason I haven't traded to sell the STI for more money, is that Panthers are now selling for $600-$700 in many places, though you can still find a bargain. You can always get more money, but, there aren't any more new Panthers, and the ones out there still seem to appreciate in price.
Consider this, the Pointman Minors could be purchased for between $400 and $575 when new. Now, they routinely sell for $600 plus used on Gunbroker. Lookup PM2 and PM3 if you don't believe me.
Zhivago
Member
That seems to be the consensus I suppose. Just trying to talk myself into it I guess. One more question...
Advantage Arms .22 conversion kit or Kimber .22 conversion kit or is there another one I dont know about?
Apparently Wilson Combat makes one too or is it just rebranded?
Advantage Arms .22 conversion kit or Kimber .22 conversion kit or is there another one I dont know about?
Apparently Wilson Combat makes one too or is it just rebranded?
I would call Dan Wesson and ask for one of their tech's back in the Service Department, before you buy a Dan Wesson for conversion to .22 lr.
Keith from Dan Wesson posts over at the 1911 forums, and he's is either the lead tech and gun smith or one of the leads. He's a great guy, very honest, and he seems to enjoy helping
You see, Dan Wesson hand fits their slides to the frame for some of tightest clearances of any 1911 manufacturer.
This means fitting a .22 conversion kit may prove problematic, as they're often made to fit a variety of guns with varying tolerances where slide fit is often loose and inconsistent.
Thus, while a mass production, canned ham 1911 can take one of those kits straight out of the box- there may need siginificant fitting.
However, I don't have a .22 kit, so I don't know that for sure. I just wanted to make sure you knew before you plopped down $1500+ on a gun and a kit that aren't easily compatible, especially seeing as how I'm proselytizing Dan Wessons in this thread.
Keith from Dan Wesson posts over at the 1911 forums, and he's is either the lead tech and gun smith or one of the leads. He's a great guy, very honest, and he seems to enjoy helping
You see, Dan Wesson hand fits their slides to the frame for some of tightest clearances of any 1911 manufacturer.
This means fitting a .22 conversion kit may prove problematic, as they're often made to fit a variety of guns with varying tolerances where slide fit is often loose and inconsistent.
Thus, while a mass production, canned ham 1911 can take one of those kits straight out of the box- there may need siginificant fitting.
However, I don't have a .22 kit, so I don't know that for sure. I just wanted to make sure you knew before you plopped down $1500+ on a gun and a kit that aren't easily compatible, especially seeing as how I'm proselytizing Dan Wessons in this thread.
Beagle-zebub
Member
Don't they have unusual rails or something, too? I seem to remember something about that when the topic of .22 conversions for the came up.
Sometimes Dan Wesson's 1911 rails are extra thick(which is a good thing, unless you're trying to convert your 1911 to a Kimber or Ceiner Kit).
Keith from Dan Wesson says Marvel .22 Conversion Kits will work.
More Info on .22 Kits for DW's are in the links below( Pre-Apology to Mods if what I'm about to do is illegal.)
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=203193&highlight=.22+conversion
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=182896&highlight=.22+conversion
Keith from Dan Wesson says Marvel .22 Conversion Kits will work.
More Info on .22 Kits for DW's are in the links below( Pre-Apology to Mods if what I'm about to do is illegal.)
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=203193&highlight=.22+conversion
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=182896&highlight=.22+conversion
glassman
Member
pictures
Been reading the responses and am surprised there hasn't been a picture posted. So hre ya go.
I've had the pointman for about a year now and it's my favorite. It's an absolute joy to shoot.
Been reading the responses and am surprised there hasn't been a picture posted. So hre ya go.
I've had the pointman for about a year now and it's my favorite. It's an absolute joy to shoot.
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