dangerous game scout scope diffiuculty making decision

[Greg Koziol]

What you are talking about is not parallax. The black within the scope is from not lining up properly on the scope.

Parallax is an optical property that pretty much boils down to the idea that a rifle with optic can be pointed at a target and if you move your line of sight without moving the rifle the cross hairs will seem to shift on the target. This is caused by differences in focal plane between target, eye and reticule.

Red dot scopes, ie aimpoint, are not parallax free. Don't believe me? Set your rifle with optic down on a rest aiming at a target. Then move your head around to vary your line of sight. The dot will move around on the target

The only sight that even comes close to to being parallax free is the Eotech and even that is from 22yds to infinity. You will still get parallax at closer ranges.

An aimpoint on a scout mount would be a pretty slick set up. But under stand it will not be parallax free. I like the idea of detachable rings.

Thanks Mr. Dan,I know what parallax is, I've owned a red dot that wasn't parallax corrected and had to return it

 

[rbernie]

Greg - parallax is indeed the term for an optical aberration whereby the reticle/aiming point and/or point of impact appears to move as you move your head around. Parallax will actually cause the POA and POI to vary. Lining up with the scope such that the field of view is unobstructed at its periphery is a function of the scope's 'eye relief'. Having an occluded periphery due to incorrect eye relief will cause a smaller field of view (FOV) but will not cause the POA and POI to diverge.

Redneckdan - my 1x and 2x Aimpoints are completely and utterly parallax free. You can state that they are not, but I own and use more than a few and I can assure you that they are parallax free. In fact, Aimpoint thinks so, as does the US Army. The Aimpoints also have virtually limitless eye relief, making them very useful in scout-style mounts. I have Aimpoints so mounted on several leverguns and a handful of AKs.

I have found that quick-throw rings almost NEVER place the scope at the proper height for a good cheek weld, and I have foregone the 'nice-to-have' of QD rings in favor of rings that actually make the weapon 'shootable in a hurry'. IIRC, I'm using Burris extra-low rings for both the AK and levergun applications.

 

[Greg Koziol]

Greg - parallax is indeed the term for an optical aberration whereby the reticle/aiming point and/or point of impact appears to move as you move your head around. Parallax will actually cause the POA and POI to vary. Lining up with the scope such that the field of view is unobstructed at its periphery is a function of the scope's 'eye relief'. Having an occluded periphery due to incorrect eye relief will cause a smaller field of view (FOV) but will not cause the POA and POI to diverge.

Redneckdan - my 1x and 2x Aimpoints are completely and utterly parallax free. You can state that they are not, but I own and use more than a few and I can assure you that they are parallax free. In fact, Aimpoint thinks so, as does the US Army. The Aimpoints also have virtually limitless eye relief, making them very useful in scout-style mounts. I have Aimpoints so mounted on several leverguns and a handful of AKs.

I have found that quick-throw rings almost NEVER place the scope at the proper height for a good cheek weld, and I have foregone the 'nice-to-have' of QD rings in favor of rings that actually make the weapon 'shootable in a hurry'. IIRC, I'm using Burris extra-low rings for both the AK and levergun applications.

Rbernie... I thought thats what a scope manufacturer means when they say "parallax adjustment" and i'm not talking about red dots

 

[Greg Koziol]

i've decided on the 9000L in 2moa, gives me good flexibility in mounting, plus it looks better on a lever and if i decide to get a bolt gun i can put it on the bolt gun too

 

[rbernie]

That is the optic that I use on several scout-style mounts. I prefer the 2MOA dot over the 4MOA dot because the 2MOA dot can be turned up and made brighter, but the 4MOA dot can't get smaller when visual precision is really needed.

Parallax explained here and here.

Skip the QD rings (I prefer backup rifles to removable optics) and focus your search (no pun intended) on getting rings that properly position the scope relative to your cheekweld.

 

[Greg Koziol]

That is the optic that I use on several scout-style mounts. I prefer the 2MOA dot over the 4MOA dot because the 2MOA dot can be turned up and made brighter, but the 4MOA dot can't get smaller when visual precision is really needed.

Parallax explained here and here.

Skip the QD rings (I prefer backup rifles to removable optics) and focus your search (no pun intended) on getting rings that properly position the scope relative to your cheekweld.

thanks brother, much appreciated.

 

[taliv]

i agree with rbernie on the QD rings as far as AKs and leverguns are concerned, but on ARs, several models put the sight at exactly the right height for proper cheek weld

 

[Greg Koziol]

thanks TALIV, the reason i chose to go with A.R.M.S. is because they have an aluminum base, there are plenty qd rings out there but few are aluminum. I wanna go with aluminum because i dont wanna screw up my base, this gun has a lot of kick. I know about the height on the rings... i realize that most are designed for ar-15's and thus are rather high, and just like you guys i have common sense as well adn realize that this would be too high for me, thus i will choose a lower mounted ring

 

[Bluenote]

not sure where you're from, but since there's not really any 'dangerous' game in the continental US or EU where 99% of our members are from, i'm going to go out on a limb and say the extra $100 is a pittance compared to the cost of traveling, tags and licenses, etc typically associated with hunting 'dangerous' game.

seriously, larue is money well spent.
............................................

I agree on the larue setup. Completely and totally disagree that there isn't any 'dangerous game in the lower 48' , a bull moose or cow with calf can be dangerous , both black and grizzly bears can be dangerous and large hogs can be quite dangerous , especially in close quarters.

 

[taliv]

greg, you can also buy a QD rail... essentially a rail that attaches to another rail. then mount "low" or "medium" rings on the QD rail to get to whatever height you need. I had to do that once.

here's a pic of seekins rings mounted to a larue qd rail

 

[TonyAngel]

This may be a bit off the wall, but have you considered an Aimpoint H1 or T1? Putting an aimpoint that far forward kinda means that field of view through the scope is a wash anyway. What you'll likely be doing is looking for the dot in your full field of view that you'll get getting through and around the scope.

The compact Aimpoint is smaller, lighter and less obtrusive than the other Aimpoints and when mounting forward, I think that those are good qualities.

I'm only mentioning this because I actually saw a guy that had a micro aimpoint mounted forward on his shotgun. He had a rail silver soldered to his barrel to mount the aim point. I didn't try it, but he said it's just like shooting with the bead only faster and more accurate. It really didn't look bad at all.

If this interests you, you might want to try the theory with one of the Bushnell micros first. They're pretty tough and are only around $100. If you like it, get the aimpoint.

 

[Greg Koziol]

not sure where you're from, but since there's not really any 'dangerous' game in the continental US or EU where 99% of our members are from, i'm going to go out on a limb and say the extra $100 is a pittance compared to the cost of traveling, tags and licenses, etc typically associated with hunting 'dangerous' game.

seriously, larue is money well spent.
............................................

I agree on the larue setup. Completely and totally disagree that there isn't any 'dangerous game in the lower 48' , a bull moose or cow with calf can be dangerous , both black and grizzly bears can be dangerous and large hogs can be quite dangerous , especially in close quarters.

well i'm not a fan of having 20 rifles. this was my first gun at 16 and I wanna make it into my all around rifle from local 500 pound black bear hunting to deer hunting to moose in maine or canada, to kodiak in alaska to safari in africa. Black bears can be dangerous, moose can be dangerous, grizzly can be dangerous, even a big buck during the rut can be dangerous. Any animal has the potential for danger, though i'm sure i could handle any of these animals with a good sized machete or large pocket knife, not joking except maybe a grizzly i wouldn't wanna take one of them on without a sword or spear even then your in trouble if he charges you.. i'd rather have firepower... it's easier.

 

[Greg Koziol]

not sure where you're from, but since there's not really any 'dangerous' game in the continental US or EU where 99% of our members are from, i'm going to go out on a limb and say the extra $100 is a pittance compared to the cost of traveling, tags and licenses, etc typically associated with hunting 'dangerous' game.

seriously, larue is money well spent.
............................................

I agree on the larue setup. Completely and totally disagree that there isn't any 'dangerous game in the lower 48' , a bull moose or cow with calf can be dangerous , both black and grizzly bears can be dangerous and large hogs can be quite dangerous , especially in close quarters.

EXACTLY. an 800 pound mama grizzly could be your best friend or could be your worst nightmare depending on how you approach her. Animals have feelings just like people, sometimes people forget that. The Lord granted us stewardship over his creatures and his kingdom we are the gaurdians, we are supposed protect them from the forces of the devil.

 

[Greg Koziol]

This may be a bit off the wall, but have you considered an Aimpoint H1 or T1? Putting an aimpoint that far forward kinda means that field of view through the scope is a wash anyway. What you'll likely be doing is looking for the dot in your full field of view that you'll get getting through and around the scope.

The compact Aimpoint is smaller, lighter and less obtrusive than the other Aimpoints and when mounting forward, I think that those are good qualities.

I'm only mentioning this because I actually saw a guy that had a micro aimpoint mounted forward on his shotgun. He had a rail silver soldered to his barrel to mount the aim point. I didn't try it, but he said it's just like shooting with the bead only faster and more accurate. It really didn't look bad at all.

If this interests you, you might want to try the theory with one of the Bushnell micros first. They're pretty tough and are only around $100. If you like it, get the aimpoint.

I saw the bushnell one for sale at cabelas for 100 bucks... the thing i don't like about it, is that i want to be able to do up to 150-200 yard shots, and i think with a 3moa dot it may be more difficult than the 9000L's 2moa dot. I've thought about the aimpoint micro but it has smaller field of view than regular aimpoints... i think the tube is only 1" give or take in diameter, so your losing 5 mm. I would mount the 9000L like a scout scope so it won't be terribly far from my eyes. Plus if i ever decide to get a bolt gun i could put the 9000L on the bolt gun. I just like the longer version cause it looks cool!!

 

[Greg Koziol]

greg, you can also buy a QD rail... essentially a rail that attaches to another rail. then mount "low" or "medium" rings on the QD rail to get to whatever height you need. I had to do that once.

here's a pic of seekins rings mounted to a larue qd rail

That looks like a sophisticated scope. It's going on a marlin 1895 so i wanna get it as low as possible, wow that looks good bro. Thanks for all the advice much appreciated. I was looking at some one-piece mounts by american defense and larue so i don't have to use seperate rings, and worry about where i place them and so forth, it's nice and easy to just have one entire unit that you can clamp on and off the rail, but all the models i saw seem to be designed primarily for tactical rifles so there all medium to very high in height, i think the lowest i saw were american defense and larue they have a one piece base thats decently low

 

[taliv]

so i don't have to use seperate rings, and worry about where i place them and so forth, it's nice and easy to just have one entire unit that you can clamp on and off the rail

so there all medium to very high in height

yeah, i agree completely. and it stinks I actually ordered the one piece ones first, and didn't find out until i tried to mount the scope that that fat thing in the center that the turrets are on was too long to fit between the fixed rings on the one-piece mount. that's why i had to use the regular rings on a qd rail, which i didn't really want to do.

good luck and be sure to post some pics and share some lessons learned after you get it sorted out!

 

[langloisandy]

Greg,

Some good info posted here.

FYI: Skip the ARMs products.

Head on over to here: www.scoutrifle.org a few folks there are running 375's, I am sure they could answer your questions.

My two cents: Aimpoint T1 on the fwd receiver mount.....!

Andy

 

[Maverick223]

If you are only choosing EER (extended eye relief) optics due to worries that you will "join the crescent moon club" (get scoped), then I think you are on the wrong track. There are plenty of great standard eye relief optics that afford sufficient eye relief that this isn't a valid concern. Furthermore EER scopes tend to throw off the balance of a handy little carbine like a 1895GG and at least for myself make sighting difficult. On my ".375H&H" power rifle (a .375H&H) I used a Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x20mm and overall I am very pleased with the scope. It has handled the recoil very well, is clear, repeatable, and eye relief as never been an issue, even with shooters of varying degrees of experience (has been fired by a friend that often "scopes" himself with his own .30-06Spfd as well as a 150lb woman without incident). Having express sights mounted on the rifle, I wanted to retain their use in case of an emergency, so I chose Leupold QR style mounts and rings, they too have served me well.

FWIW, I plan to attach a Kahles Helia CL 2-7x32mm to my Marlin 1895SBL (when I finally purchase one), IMO it offers plenty of low end and more than enough high end magnification for such uses. It also has standard eye relief, and it should be noted that it has significantly less than the Leupy mentioned above (so it may not be suitable for folks that are particularly sensitive to eye relief).

BTW: the new Minox ZA-5 scopes have good ER, and have an excellent magnification range (2-10x), so it may be a good candidate for your rifle. I would certainly consider one if I didn't already have the Kahles.

 

[rbernie]

Let's keep the discussion focused on optics and mounts, and not each of y'alls personal definition of dangerous game. I've already had to delete a few posts that kinda veered in the wrong direction, and I'd really rather not have to close the thread.

 

[kimberfan]

i have a 2x aimpoint compc3 on top of my M1A in a scout mount set up with 1MOA dot and LOVE it, good FOV, very fast, just the right magnification and tough as nails.

 

[Robert]

A.R.M.S throw lever 30mm rings

When it breaks, and it will. Send it to Larue and they will replace it for you with one of their mounts. Or they used to anyway.

As far as using 45-70 on African game you'd want to talk to H&H hunter about that. He has hunted Africa dozens of times with many different calibers. He might have some insight for you on that front.

 

[Cosmoline]

If this is an 1895G it will give you GREATER recoil than any normal .375 H&H. Get the toughest mount and rings possible

What about Leopold's EER scopes?

If soldiers in IRAQ use ARMS then so can I

Wrong comparison. No soldier in Iraq is shooting B-Bore slugs out of a six pound levergun. Buying what you have said is a scope for a dangerous game rifle, then accepting that key components on your sighting system will probably break, is not a wise idea. Get it done right from the start, or stick with good irons.

 

[Greg Koziol]

When it breaks, and it will. Send it to Larue and they will replace it for you with one of their mounts. Or they used to anyway.

As far as using 45-70 on African game you'd want to talk to H&H hunter about that. He has hunted Africa dozens of times with many different calibers. He might have some insight for you on that front.

thanks bro... i'm a beginner so any info is appreciated.

 

[Greg Koziol]

If this is an 1895G it will give you GREATER recoil than any normal .375 H&H. Get the toughest mount and rings possible

What about Leopold's EER scopes?




Wrong comparison. No soldier in Iraq is shooting B-Bore slugs out of a six pound levergun. Buying what you have said is a scope for a dangerous game rifle, then accepting that key components on your sighting system will probably break, is not a wise idea. Get it done right from the start, or stick with good irons.

its not a guide gun its the classic 1895 with 22" barrel, and i had the mag tube fully extended so i'd say it's probably a pound or 2 heavier than a guide gun.

I have an XS lever rail. I've looked at leupold scopes and the only thing i wish they had was an electronic reticle, a standard reticle is useless in low light or when hiking in dangerous game areas at night to and from hunting spots. I want something with illumination. The other scope i'm looking at is the burris handgun scope in 2-7x and has an illuminated dot in the center of the reticle, but i'm afraid with the 2x zoom it may be slow to acquire target than an aimpoint. I don't plan on shooting past 200 yards unless i have a ballistic reticle of some sort because the bullets on a .45-70 even on hot loaded ammo drop 6"-12" after 150 yards, unless i get those lever evolutions they are supposedly pretty flat out to 200 yards. But i figure with an aimpoint in 2moa i should be able to make shots out to 200 yards with a little practice

I will be shooting 405 grain buffalo bore ammo which are rated to 2000fps, i think those will be my black bear ammo this fall and i may get a box of buffalo bore 300 grainers for deer hunting those are 2350 fps

 

[Greg Koziol]

a.r.m.s are really that junky? then why so expensive