1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
You've never seen throat erosion in a rifle or pistol barrel? Forcing cone erosion in a revolver barrel?
Dangers in shooting 38s out of a 357??
- Thread starter 4kbeard
- Start date
- Status
You've never seen throat erosion in a rifle or pistol barrel? Forcing cone erosion in a revolver barrel?
Frank V
Member
4KBeard
Welcome to the forum!!
I regularly shoot .38s through a .357 without any worries. I run a cleaning brush through the cambers as several have said, & don't worry about it. It won't hurt!
Frank
Welcome to the forum!!
I regularly shoot .38s through a .357 without any worries. I run a cleaning brush through the cambers as several have said, & don't worry about it. It won't hurt!
Frank
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Sure I have seen it in forcing cones and barrels. Especially ones running 40,000 PSI with ball powder and called Magnuns
Not much in .38 Special low pressure loads the OP ask about
Again, I think the forcing cone gets bead blasted away by heavy charge ball powder granules while escaping the B/C gap, and trying to straighten up and fly right again to go down the barrel in a slightly different direction.
Not cut away by the fires of hell coming out of the cylinder throats.
But espacially the fires of hell in a .38 Special load the OP ask about
rc
Well, flame cutting (throat erosion) is more common in rifles than handguns due to the larger charge and the hotter and longer burning powder, but here is what happens in a rifle, and a lot is applicable to a handgun as well.
As pressure builds, the first thing that happens is that the thin front of the case begins to expand. The bullet, kept motionless for an instant by its own inertia, just sits there, while the burning gas and partially burned powder go around it. Because of the constriction in the small gap, the gas speeds up and the combination of gas and solids moving at high speed eat at the sides of the barrel throat. Eventually, the bullet moves and plugs the gap, stopping that erosive force. But each time the gun is fired, the erosion moves an infinitesmal distance forward until eventually the start of the rifling is well away from the bullet of an unfired round. So the bullet starts moving, but instead of finding rifling, it finds an open space which allows it to skew and try to move sideways, doing damage that will cause the bullet to be inaccurate when it exits the barrel.
The same basic thing can happen in an auto pistol, though the damage takes a lot longer to happen, and in a revolver, mostly in the forcing cone.
As to the barrel of a 1911 type pistol separating due to gas cutting, I doubt that was the cause. It seems much more likely that the barrel was defective to begin with. At one time, someone was making 1911 barrels by casting the back end, then reaming out the stub and inserting a piece of turned down SMG barrel. That occurrence sounds like the shooter encountered one of those barrels.
Jim
As pressure builds, the first thing that happens is that the thin front of the case begins to expand. The bullet, kept motionless for an instant by its own inertia, just sits there, while the burning gas and partially burned powder go around it. Because of the constriction in the small gap, the gas speeds up and the combination of gas and solids moving at high speed eat at the sides of the barrel throat. Eventually, the bullet moves and plugs the gap, stopping that erosive force. But each time the gun is fired, the erosion moves an infinitesmal distance forward until eventually the start of the rifling is well away from the bullet of an unfired round. So the bullet starts moving, but instead of finding rifling, it finds an open space which allows it to skew and try to move sideways, doing damage that will cause the bullet to be inaccurate when it exits the barrel.
The same basic thing can happen in an auto pistol, though the damage takes a lot longer to happen, and in a revolver, mostly in the forcing cone.
As to the barrel of a 1911 type pistol separating due to gas cutting, I doubt that was the cause. It seems much more likely that the barrel was defective to begin with. At one time, someone was making 1911 barrels by casting the back end, then reaming out the stub and inserting a piece of turned down SMG barrel. That occurrence sounds like the shooter encountered one of those barrels.
Jim
CajunBass
Member
I'm not smart enough to know if you can wear out a 357 shooting 38's in it or not, but I'd like to have the time and the money to try to do it.
I'd brag about it if I did.
I'd brag about it if I did.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Still working to do it on a 6" Model 19 since 1968.
No luck yet!
Looks like at 68 in April, I won't live long enough to see any signs of chamber erosion in it from shooting .38 Spl in my lifetime.
rc
No luck yet!
Looks like at 68 in April, I won't live long enough to see any signs of chamber erosion in it from shooting .38 Spl in my lifetime.
rc
bergmen
Member.
Just citing the manual (which I follow, by the way). Freedom Arms knows exactly what they are doing, have been the authority on .454 Casull single actions for decades.
The current owner expanded on the reasons for this (cannot find the link to save me) and IIRC there was measurable erosion in cylinders that fired hot .45 Colt loads and this caused the subsequent firing of .454 Casull cartridges to stick in the cylinder (much like 1911Tuner indicated with the .357).
Dan
Encoreman
Member
I'm with ya CajunBass, I would be happy to say "yep I done it boys wore that dang 65 out but it cost me $10k worth of ammo"!!! time to get another one.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
But, the OP's question was about firing standard pressure .38 Spl in a .357.
It had nothing to do with high-pressure +P+ .45 Colt in an even higher pressure Freedon Arms .454 Casull.
rc
It had nothing to do with high-pressure +P+ .45 Colt in an even higher pressure Freedon Arms .454 Casull.
rc
PRM
Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2008
- Messages
- 2,111
+1 on that...
I've carried and shot .38s out of my S&W Model 60-9 (.357) since 1997. No ~ I don't have a round count. Its certainly not in the tens of thousands, but has seen some regular use. So far it looks pristine. At this rate it will certainly out last me.
Cornerpost
Member
This is an interesting discussion. It brings to mind an article I read several years ago. It was about the old gallery guns used at fairs and carnivals, 1906 Winchester's I believe. Anyhow, long story short, the use of tons of .22 shorts ruined the chambers to where they could only shoot .22 shorts.
I'm sure those guns were severely neglected. Keep them clean, you'll be fine! Otherwise face the music. It can happen.
I'm sure those guns were severely neglected. Keep them clean, you'll be fine! Otherwise face the music. It can happen.
MrDig
Member
I don't do it for the very reasons already cited.
I don't want the 38's cutting into the chambers. I shoot 357 in my Marlin and my Ruger simply because I want to keep shooting them for a long time.
I don't want the 38's cutting into the chambers. I shoot 357 in my Marlin and my Ruger simply because I want to keep shooting them for a long time.
fiftybmg
member
Makes no difference to the gun at all. You just need a bit of extra time to clean out the cylinder fouling at the end of the cylinders.
A solution to the debate is a Ruger 38 
. The GP 100 and Six Series 38s are identical to the 357s except for the cylinder bore length . You can load your 38s to 357 specs without the worry, just make sure you mark them Ruger only . With these guns you don't have to worry about sticky 357 brass after shooting a ton of 38s. I was bummed at first when the only Service Six at the gun show was a 38, until I realized its potential .
. The GP 100 and Six Series 38s are identical to the 357s except for the cylinder bore length . You can load your 38s to 357 specs without the worry, just make sure you mark them Ruger only . With these guns you don't have to worry about sticky 357 brass after shooting a ton of 38s. I was bummed at first when the only Service Six at the gun show was a 38, until I realized its potential .
oldfool
Member
real good exchange of perspectives here from some of the most knowledgeable shooters on the internet (not me, but several here are)
but I vote with rcmodel
I ain't reached a gazillion rounds yet (but half a gazillion maybe), and pretty certain mine will out wear me. Do know for a fact mine will last long enough to burn up enough ammo count for 10X the cost of the gun, and then a lot more, and still throw both off-the shelf 357 and 38 sp, just as well and accurately. YMMV.
just keep 'em clean
PS
them old k-frames are a lot tougher than some people give 'em credit for
(just like them old Rugers)
but I vote with rcmodel
I ain't reached a gazillion rounds yet (but half a gazillion maybe), and pretty certain mine will out wear me. Do know for a fact mine will last long enough to burn up enough ammo count for 10X the cost of the gun, and then a lot more, and still throw both off-the shelf 357 and 38 sp, just as well and accurately. YMMV.
just keep 'em clean
PS
them old k-frames are a lot tougher than some people give 'em credit for
(just like them old Rugers)
Last edited:
I don`t know how it could...........The only difference between the .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Special & the .357 Magnum is case length.
Guillermo
member
Everything that RC has said is either
A- spot on or
B- follows logically those things which we know.
A- spot on or
B- follows logically those things which we know.
Fishslayer
Member
Well.... I dunno. I load my light target loads in .357 cases but have a stash of shorties just in case.
As for my bottom feeders, I think what I need to do is go buy a few more in .45ACP so I'm not putting a gazillion rounds through just one or two. Ya just can't be too careful. When 1911tuner speaks, I listen.
The potential for disaster is strong here... There's a reason they made the Magnum case longer.
As for my bottom feeders, I think what I need to do is go buy a few more in .45ACP so I'm not putting a gazillion rounds through just one or two. Ya just can't be too careful. When 1911tuner speaks, I listen.
The potential for disaster is strong here... There's a reason they made the Magnum case longer.
Hamilton Felix
Member
1911Tuner, I have had a barrel come apart, too, with most of the barrel landing 37 yards downrange. Glad it was the last shot in the rapid fire string and I didn't fire another. But it was a two piece barrel. Remember Fed Ord? Cheap parts??? I had one of their "hammer forged" barrels, along with their cheezy "NM" collet type bushing (rough, cheap blued collet style bushing, stamped "NM"). Bushing broke a finger and tied up the gun. Got a solid bushing. Barrel was, in my guesstimation, some sort of surplus tube they got cheap - maybe old de-milled grease gun barrels or something - and then mated to a chamber (probably cheap 1911 chambers from de-milled 1911 barrels) by brazing.
This event led to a third barrel in my old AMT Hardballer. BTW, the first barrel was also two piece, but put together differently. You could see the seam at the chamber mouth. I retired that one when the lugs holding the link started to crack.
I would not feel bad about a Ruger Service Six or Security Six .38 Special loaded to .357 specifications. Those are the only revolvers I know of where the .38 version and the .357 version are identical except for chamber length. And since cartridge maximum overall length is the same for .38 and .357, the only difference a handloader might face is which bullet groove he crimps in.
dwatts5250
Member
@ 4kbeard : I heard you dont own a cleaning kit, that you've been using the wifes toothbrush when she's not looking.
Last edited:
Dnaltrop
Member
It is Indeed wise to follow the manual Bergmen.
It is/was Mr Casull's company in the first place...
When I finally have the good fortune to collect an Octagonal Barreled one, I'll respect his wishes and will be using the longer brass myself, regardless of load.
So very jealous So many guns to collect...
It is/was Mr Casull's company in the first place...
When I finally have the good fortune to collect an Octagonal Barreled one, I'll respect his wishes and will be using the longer brass myself, regardless of load.
So very jealous
So many guns to collect...TGReaper
Member
My Python is 45 years old,and has shot many thousands of .38s. Because it gets cleaned regular I still can not detect a chamber ring where the .38 cases end.I don't expect I will shoot another 45 years worth of .38s but the old Colt would.
TGR
TGR
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Corrosive ammo they used back then, infrequent cleaning, and storage in a carnival truck will do that.
Flame cutting the chamber with modern .22 Shorts won't.
rc
Guillermo
member
He is worthy of respect
But fallible
RC is also a smart guy, and on this one, he is right
oldfool
Member
worthy of respect and then some
Me, I always derive extra enjoyment (and generally always learn something) whenever multiple members of the Curmudgeon Club (aka as "extremely well experienced gun hands & gunsmiths, the best of the best, earned the old fashioned way") post together on any one thread
That includes, though not exclusively so on this board, 1911Tuner, Jim Keenan, Old Fuff, rcmodel, and a host of others. Even the best can disagree with one another, it's permitted.
(you could ask Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton about that; IIRC, they did not always agree)
Me, although a self confessed curmudgeon, not a member, just a wannabe, but gimme another 40 years, I am workin' on it !
Me, I always derive extra enjoyment (and generally always learn something) whenever multiple members of the Curmudgeon Club (aka as "extremely well experienced gun hands & gunsmiths, the best of the best, earned the old fashioned way") post together on any one thread
That includes, though not exclusively so on this board, 1911Tuner, Jim Keenan, Old Fuff, rcmodel, and a host of others. Even the best can disagree with one another, it's permitted.
(you could ask Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton about that; IIRC, they did not always agree)
Me, although a self confessed curmudgeon, not a member, just a wannabe, but gimme another 40 years, I am workin' on it !
Last edited:
- Status
