Deactivated Safety Legal Troubles?

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il.bill

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I was just reading through this thread on 1911 Model 80 Firing Pin Safety removal http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=767135. Those parts are not the accuracy limiting factor on my 1911 trigger (my own finger is) so it is a non-issue for me.

It got me thinking about the aftermath of using a pistol in a self defense situation that has previously removed safety components, specifically one of my Hi Power pistols with the magazine safety gone. I often read comments pointing to serious legal repercussions if any opposing lawyer finds out you used a 'dangerously modified' firearm with any original safety features disabled.

Can anyone provide a link to, or information about, such a situation in which this actually became a legal issue in a court, or is this just some more internet 'wisdom'?
 
Maybe it is spreading the net too wide on this thread, but I would also be interested in any actual examples where the use of reloaded (instead of factory) ammunition caused extra trouble for a defendant in a case.
 
It's not so much the legal question if the gun is used in a lawful defensive shooting...although an aggressive prosecutor would doubtless give it his best shot at using it against you. It's the civil liability if the gun is ever involved in an accidental shooting...even if the presence of the system wouldn't have changed it.

Let's say that your best bud asks to try out your pistol at the range...and he gets careless and puts one through his foot....ruining it in grand fashion.

He can't work, and his disability plus his wife's salary will barely cover household expenses and groceries.

He's your friend and you know that he won't sue you. Right?

But he knows that you removed the Series 80 system, and he starts to think that maybe...just maybe...it wasn't his stupidity after all.

Then, when his savings is spent, and his house is about to go into foreclosure, and he's eating into his kids' college funds just to keep body and soul together...your assets will start to look pretty good.

So he talks to a lawyer and tells him about the "safety" that you disabled...and you're owned.

I've removed the system from two of my dedicated range beaters. Nobody handles the pistols loaded except me. No exceptions. Not for friends. Not for family. Not for anybody.

You can make your own choices, but I won't carry a Series 80 pistol unless ALL the parts are installed and operational.
 
A self-defense shooting is obviously an intentional discharge. Safety devices (such as a firing pin block) are designed to prevent unintentional discharges. Therefore, they wouldn't be relevant in a self-defense scenario, but they would be relevant if the issue was an accidental discharge. For example, if a kid finds a gun in your house, and shoots himself, it might be relevant that a magazine safety had been removed from the gun, if there was no magazine in the gun but a round had been left in the chamber. The degree of negligence (on your part) would be enhanced. If there was a magazine in the gun, it wouldn't matter if the magazine safety was present, or not.
 
That sort of thing is almost impossible to find. The circumstance that that sort of modification would even be noticed or brought up in a case are relatively unlikely. It certainly isn't the sort of thing that is considered relevant to the claim of self defense in the sort of defensive shooting scenario we tend to ponder. Further, tiny details like that which may be brought up to play on a jury's emotions and perceptions generally don't make it into the reporting of case outcomes. It would never be the major point on which a case would hinge, though it isn't inconceivable that a prosecutor might make comments about such a modification that could in some imperceptible way give the jury a negative impression of the defendant. That's more of an issue with your "Punisher" skill grips or "Kill 'Em All" t-shirt, though. Not so much a small, common internal modification.

(This is in relation to a DELIBERATE self-defense shooting. If the shooting is considered accidental/negligent, that could be a whole different story.)

...

Reloaded ammo in defensive shootings is a completely misunderstood question. The only commonly referenced case where reloads were heavily relevant is the Bias case and that didn't have anything to do with jury perceptions, but with the admissibility of certain kinds of forensic evidence.
 
Massad Ayoob....

Author, sworn LE officer & legal use of force expert(testify in court under oath in lethal force cases) Massad Ayoob wrote a few gun magazine articles & web blogs about the topic.
He's also a forum member here, ;) .
He's noted a few armed citizen cases of gun owners being sued or having the "magazine safety" issue come up.

I would not remove or modify any safety device or feature on a duty or carry firearm. It's just asking for legal hassles & problems. :uhoh:

Some modern pistol-smiths like GA's Jim Stroh won't do it & refuse to take orders.
 
He's noted a few armed citizen cases of gun owners being sued or having the "magazine safety" issue come up.
Cool! Can you find those for us so we can find out what the issues were they were sued over?

Hard to know what lessons to take without understanding the details of the cases.
 
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As I understand, unless there is state law disallowing it, even a justifiable defense shooting can be followed by a civil suit, and in a civil suit, where the rules are not so rigid as in a criminal case, the plaintiff's attorney could claim that deactivating a safety shows a propensity toward recklessness and disregard for the lives of others, even if the modification played no role in the incident.

I know of one case where a police officer "smoothed up" the trigger of his duty revolver. He shot and killed a man and the shooting was ruled justified. No criminal charges were filed, but he and the city were sued in a civil action. The city learned of the altered revolver (there was a regulation against any modifications to the issue guns) and threw him under the bus. He lost the case, and everything he owned or ever hoped to own.

Unfortunately, some folks are still living in the old west or somewhere, and believe they can shoot people with impunity. Not so. As we well know, even police can be in trouble over the use of deadly force; the armed citizen has even less legal protection and does not need to compromise his own case in advance.

Jim
 
The defense will try to convince the jury that because you have a modified pistol that you're a blood hungry psychopath that's looking for an excuse to use it. They've done that many times. Ask anyone that works in the courts. It's obviously BS. Any decent jury is going to see right through that. But you're not making life any easier on yourself.

That being said. If your box stock perfectly safe pistol goes off because of a solar flare or something, and hits a kid, accident or not, you're screwed. It was either a good shoot or a bad shoot. If some bystander gets hit by your round, you're toast no matter what. Even if you were fighting for your life, you're still going to pay for that.

Race guns are perfectly legal to use for home defense. As long as you only hit the bad guy and don't ND anywhere. But the defense is still going to try to get their client off the hook no matter what. If you hit a bystander or ND, the prosecutor is going to have an easy day with you.

Tell me about one single accident that was OK, because the gun owner was responsible. A bad shoot is a bad shoot. How good your intentions were, is immaterial. A perfectly stock old guy revolver isn't going to make you look any better in a bad shoot, but a modified gun could be used against you by the defense in a good shoot. Depends on the stupidity of the jury.

A magazine safety or some customized stuff is not against the law. But the defense has to try.
 
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It doesn't have to be an accident or a hit on an innocent person; a prosecutor may well use the same argument even in what would appear to be a justified SD shooting, and it is a good bet that a plaintiff's attorney in a civil case will use anything to get money for his client (or mostly himself if he gets 90%, as some do).

"Any decent jury is going to see right through that..." Or not. If you are in court, as a defendant, and you realize that the prosecutor, the judge, the jury and all the witnesses look like the man you killed, and no one around looks like you, you are in deep trouble, no matter what gun you used or what you did or didn't do to it. Or you have a jury of women, whipped into a frenzy by the local newspaper denouncing you as a murderous fanatic, neo-Nazi rapist and Redskins fan.

Jim
 
In a justified SD shooting or wounding?

Would it matter if you used a gun with a mag safety or FP safety removed?

If it does, don't grab up a kitchen knife you just sharpened.
Or the cast iron skillet you just washed with a copper Chore-Girl pot scrubbing pad!

A legal shoot is just that.
Whether you used your FP safety less 1911,

Or your grand dads 1911 trap gun with the custom stock and trigger.

But, the negligence issue of removing a safety feature can bite you if someone has an accident with the gun and sues you.

rc
 
Ayoob....

As I posted, Massad Ayoob is a forum member. The members can send him a PM & ask him for help. I'm sure he can elaborate on this topic better than I could.

RS
 
I have not seen Ayoob meaningfully post on this forum for years... He chimes in here and there but not much substance.
 
If removing a passive safety ever comes into play after a SD shooting, nothing you do will really matter, because they will twist anything they can, anyway they can, to try to make you the bad guy.

No matter what you did, you were wrong. Every married man has gone through this at least once, so it shouldn't be a strange concept.

Use a Mossberg 500? Its a hunting gun, you were hunting for someone to shoot. A 590? That's the military model, and you are not in Bagdad. A P220? That's what the local department uses, so you are a wannabe cop. A 1911? That is an "expert's gun" since the local department only allows them for SWAT use with their additional training. A raven .25? You were shooting to wound.
 
Ummm...

Before we drive further off road into how a prosecutor might use this or that against a defendant, I'd like to point out that it is the JOB of the prosecutor to use every means at his/her disposal to prosecute a case. It's what they do.

Not being an attorney myself, I once ran across a saying with respect to attorneys, something along the lines "If you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. If you have the law on your side, argue the law. If you have neither, pound the table."

Facts have to do with concrete evidence, available and verifiable through a variety of sources. If it's not concrete evidence, then it's circumstantial or a hypothetical that seems to fit what is known of a particular offense.

To claim "self-defense" in a shooting, a defendant MUST admit to having actually done the shooting. This point, therefore, is never in question during self-defense trials.

What the prosecution must then do is prove that the claim to self-defense was not, somehow, in compliance with the jurisdictional laws on when deadly force may be used.

In the absence of supporting evidence that the word of law was actually violated, it comes down to proving INTENT. And INTENT is not so easy to prove unless there is some kind of supporting evidence which directly points to that.

Altering a firearm by removing a safety does NOT "prove" intent. Using reloads in self-defense does NOT "prove" intent. They may color the picture...or they may not. And any decent defense attorney will be quick to point out the flaws in such claims.

This is not to say that people have never been convicted due to such things. However, they're exceedingly rare. I've looked for them. I've followed a number of public trials on self-defense shootings where the defendant lost. In each of the cases I've followed, I can recall NONE which rested on flimsy claims like reloaded ammunition, customized guns, etc which would have affected the outcome of the trial.

It's simply NOT that common.


Any person who shoots another, justifiable or not, is likely in for a world of legal issues until the dust settles. That's just the way it is. The best defense any one of us can have, first and foremost, is knowledge/understanding of what the law ACTUALLY says and means...and then to be sure that we ACT within that law.

Excessive worrying about a legal modification to a firearm is pointless when viewed with the fact that many people don't have a clear understanding of what their jurisdictional deadly force laws say in the first place.
 
Chief says a real mouthful there! Spot on!

Look, my point earlier was that issues like a mag disconnect safety (which several guns come with and without, both, from the factory) isn't the sort of thing that is likely to come up in almost any defensive shooting investigation.

Your shooting may be investigated by the responding agency and you may not even be held.

You may be referred to the DA and then may be declared to have acted clearly within the justifications of self defense/castle doctrine, etc.

Your case may be brought to a Grand Jury who may find that there is insufficient cause to consider the case worth prosecuting.

You may indeed be brought to a trial and the case argued before a jury because of the circumstances of the shooting, conflicts in testimony, questionable prior relationships between the parties, etc.

But to dig into the technical aspects of modifications to the optional safety features of the gun you used begs some question as to WHY the investigators would even go looking for that kind of thing. What material fact does that bring to light? Why would that be worth entering into evidence? Why would the judge allow that?

In the case of Dr. Meyer's (member GEM) studies of juries and perceptions, yeah, the simple fact that the prosecutor holds up your really scary looking rifle, or the pistol with the skull grips on it can influence the leanings of the jury as to whether they are inclined to believe you (acquit) or not (convict).

Holding up your pistol and talking about how you've modified or deleted a small internal part for a smoother trigger pull and which might also make the pistol less safe (IF you'd had an accident, which you didn't) isn't going to sell their case. Certainly not when the defense will instantly rebut with how silly and grasping even introducing that into testimony really is.



That's why the actual cases are so important. "Modification 'r' bad" is a fine mantra, but without context of WHY and specifically how they've hurt someone in a real world trial, they're pointless.

Everything you might do is bad for some reasons and good for other ones. Gotta be specific to make a rational choice.

And no one has yet provided any specifics at all...
 
Looking at it from the mechanical aspect a number of guns come without any safety at all. How does removing one make a firearm more dangerous than a gun that was never equipped with the feature?

I sense that will be the featured conflict in testimony as firearms designs and their common use are discussed in court. When it comes down to it, if guns with no safety are commonly employed for self defense are involved in a negligent discharge, the issue hasn't been significant enough to stop their sale and remove them from the market.

What a lawyer argues in court can be argued against him by the existence of firearms with no safeties at all.
 
I'm so tired of threads like this and the "don't carry reloads" nonsense.

Some people should really rethink carrying at all.
 
I have read numerous posts through the years that warned, often ominously, about lawyers (both criminal and civil) using the presence of safety modifications or reloaded ammunition as evidence in proceedings against citizen shooters. It got me wondering, and so I have spent a fair amount of time searching the Interwebs for any actual examples. While I admit that I am not adept at the Google, I was a bit surprised to come up empty handed, and wondered if those warnings were just so much 'internet wisdom'. Hence the reason for this thread.

Thanks to all who have replied. One very important aspect of the mag safety / firing pin block removal that I had not considered involves the potential increased liability for the owner of such a firearm that becomes involved in any kind of unintentional discharge. It does make sense in such a case that when negligence is being apportioned, my share as the person who owned a pistol with any kind of safety modification would likely increase significantly over what it would be if the handgun was set up as it came from the factory.
 
Posted by AlexanderA:

A self-defense shooting is obviously an intentional discharge.
That's right.

Safety devices (such as a firing pin block) are designed to prevent unintentional discharges.
Yep.

Therefore, they wouldn't be relevant in a self-defense scenario, but they would be relevant if the issue was an accidental discharge.
Not so fast.

A civil plaintiff will be motivated to receive money from a source that has money, and your homeowner's insurance policy would be a great place to go for money. But they'll pay only if the shooting was unintentional.

So, while you, in claiming self defense, have stated that you intentionally fired your gun at another person, a civil plaintiff will be motivated to argue otherwise. He or she will use things relating to the circumstances, the trigger pull, the safety, and so forth, to make the case that your shot was unintentional. His burden is one of a preponderance of the evidence (think 51% likelihood) , and unanimity among the jurors will not be required.

I don't see objectively how the removal of a firing pin safety, a device used to prevent discharges in the even that the gun is dropped, would provide much in the way of grist for the mill for such a suit, however. But that's common sense, and the reasons may, as Frank Ettin likes to say, may be too "inside baseball" for the understanding of jurors who were selected because they didn't know anything about guns.

The removal or modification of a safety of a gun with a light , short trigger pull, or the modification of the trigger, can certainly incur some obvious risk. The plaintiff can put and expert witness on the stand and have him or her explain the purpose of the original specification and the reasons why changing the gun can led to an unintentional discharge.

Some other kind of modification? "The defendant removed a safety device!" "The defendant removed a safety device!" That won't help you a bit.

Posted by ilbill:

It got me wondering, and so I have spent a fair amount of time searching the Interwebs for any actual examples. While I admit that I am not adept at the Google, I was a bit surprised to come up empty handed...,

Actual cases? Look: the only way you would be able to find a case in which the modification entered into the jurors' decision in the first place would be to find an appellate case that came up because of that specific issue. Unless, of course, you want to interview people who have sat through every moment of every trial involving a suit for unintentional death or injury. Shooting are rare in the first place; civil suits are more rare; and appellate cases involving safeties and triggers are extremely rare.

That doesn't mean you want to face the risk. The jurors will decide on the basis of the totality of the evidence. That you modified a safety or trigger would not be helpful, and the stakes are high.

There was a case that we know of. because of the involvement of an expert witness whom we know, that involved a Browning HP with the mag safety removed; the safety had been removed by the previous owner, and that gun was not even the gun used in the shooting, but the plaintiff brought up the fact anyway. Think about that for a moment: the safety had been removed by the previous owner, and that gun was not even the gun used in the shooting, but the plaintiff brought up the fact anyway.

The case was settled out of court. You are certainly aware of what that means regarding disclosure of the details.

Do I take the risk seriously? You betcha! That kind of risk is one of two reasons we are having the hammer bobbed on my wife's SP101.
 
I've re-opened this thread at the request of Massad Ayoob, a member here. Mas sent me the following by PM and ask that I post it. And I'll keep the thread open for now for discussion of this new information.

massad ayoob said:
Fellow THR members, my apologies for chiming in late. The question has arisen in this thread as to whether the removal or deactivation of a safety device on a firearm has ever been an issue in court.

The answer is yes, it most certainly has.

It does not come up often when individuals are unmeritoriously charged or sued after shootings, for the simple reason that most shootings involve factory stock guns in factory stock condition. Having spent 19 years as chair of the firearms committee for the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers and 11 years on the advisory board of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers’ Association, I can tell you that the great majority of police departments do not authorize their personnel to remove or deactivate safety devices from department issue OR privately owned/department approved duty weapons, and many expressly forbid it. (I suspect that most who don’t expressly forbid it have not had the issue come up in court with their department yet.)

Having been an expert witness for the courts since 1979, I’ve personally only run across one case in which it became an issue for the INDIVIDUAL who was charged. This may be the case that THR’s Kleanbore referred to earlier in the thread. The gun in question was a Browning Hi-Power, the magazine disconnector safety of which had been removed from the pistol. It should be noted that it was not the death weapon, and was not at all involved in the shooting. However, at the moment the shot was fired, the scenario became a crime scene, and anything there was discoverable evidence.

Those who do not work regularly in the court system need to understand that the prosecution in a criminal case, and the plaintiff in a civil lawsuit, each have great latitude in which they are allowed to establish (or attempt to establish) “patterns of continuing behavior” which relate to the case they’re trying to prove. In a criminal case such as Manslaughter (the charge in the case in question) or in a Wrongful Death civil lawsuit, the other side is allowed to explore proclivities toward violence or, particularly on point to this discussion, things that might show a continuing pattern of disregard of normal firearms safety practices. They are trying to establish NEGLIGENCE, the key ingredient in a Manslaughter conviction or a Wrongful Death verdict that goes against the person with the gun.

The case in question is one where I was called in by Mark Seiden – a former homicide detective and prosecutor who became most famous for his work as a criminal defense attorney. The case involved a Manslaughter charge in south Florida.

Mark defended his client superbly, keeping him out of jail. The case was “sealed,” which means that I cannot divulge the name of the case. After seeing this thread in THR, I contacted Mark Seiden, whom I’ve known for three decades and with whom I’ve done multiple cases and trials, all resulting in favorable adjudications for the defendant.

Mark Seiden asked me to tell you the following, quoted verbatim, with the request that his client be referred to as “Mr. X”:
Mark Seiden said:
The matter has been sealed, so we cannot use his actual name. It was a tragic case wherein a .45 Colt Commander had been mishandled, resulting in an AD which killed one of Mr. X's employees in another room. The Colt was box stock. Mr. X gave the police permission to search his premises and his car. In the glove box of the car, they discovered a Browning 9mm Hi-Power. Examination revealed the magazine disconnect had been removed from the Browning. The State served notice that it intended to introduce the modified Browning as evidence of "other crimes, wrongs or acts" under Rule 404 (b) to prove that Mr. X was reckless with firearms as evidenced by his removal of a safety device that had been installed by the manufacturer to prevent accidental discharges.

Our objection to this theory was never ruled on as the case was pled out. Mr. X received probation and a withhold of adjudication. The issue never would have reared its ugly head had the Browning not been modified, even though it was not the death weapon.

While the above discussion is limited to attacks on individuals for having guns with safety devices removed, we can learn a great deal from lawsuits by injured individuals against gun companies. Frank Ettin here at THR and other retired or currently practicing attorneys can confirm for you that lawyers often work with “boilerplate,” which means that they take work other lawyers have done on other cases, change the names, and use the same arguments.

Attorneys who work within given specialties stay in touch with each other, sharing “brief banks” A lawyer suing you and even FALSELY alleging that you shot your assailant in a negligent “accident” instead of by justifiable intent, can access all that. Over the last three and a half decades, I’ve turned down more cases than I’ve taken. Some of them involved lawsuits against gun companies – Beretta, Glock, Smith & Wesson, and Sterling Arms – alleging design negligence for not having magazine disconnector safeties. I turned down all those cases when asked to speak by the plaintiffs bringing the lawsuits, and not being involved, did not follow them…but the fact is, those cases WERE brought. The theories of those cases, however BS they might be, sustained lawsuits.

We should learn from that.

So, ending as begun…yes, there HAVE been cases, and the fact that gun enthusiasts who don’t work in the justice system are not aware of them, most certainly does not mean that these cases have not been brought. Quite the contrary.

If the other side, in a wrongful criminal OR civil action, is trying to falsely allege that you are reckless and negligent with firearms, I respectfully submit that you DON’T want to give them a weapon to use against you as powerful as, “LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY, THE DEFENDANT IS SO RECKLESS AND NEGLIGENT WITH FIREARMS THAT HE DEACTIVATES THE SAFETY DEVICES ON LETHAL WEAPONS!!”

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob

I'll add that I, personally, would not choose as a self defense gun one on which I had removed a safety device. I can certainly find guns suitable for the purpose that would not require any such modification.

RetiredUSNChief said:
...And any decent defense attorney will be quick to point out the flaws in such claims....
Sam1911 said:
...Holding up your pistol and talking about how you've modified or deleted a small internal part for a smoother trigger pull and which might also make the pistol less safe (IF you'd had an accident, which you didn't) isn't going to sell their case. Certainly not when the defense will instantly rebut with how silly and grasping even introducing that into testimony really is....
We gun guys tend to be pretty glib when we talk about how the defense attorney will be able to explain what was done or demolish the prosecution's/plaintiff's arguments. But while we might have a story to tell, that doesn't mean that a jury needs to buy that story.

Everything that has to be explained is a wild card. Sometimes the explanation will work, and sometimes it will not. There are no guarantees. Well, the only guarantee comes when you don't have to explain.

Remember that any jury will most likely have no knowledge or interest in guns. Some of the things that are important to us -- like really good triggers -- will mean nothing to Suzy Soccermom.
 
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