Pistol Safeties I have Loved.

[lsudave]

Funny, even John Browning didn't like grip safeties.
And FYI no one "accidently" pulls the trigger on any firearm.

Accidents can and do happen, to even the most cautious and careful person.

 

[lsudave]

The mag safeties have to be one of the most ignorant designs ever invented. They are designed for people who are not attentive enough to clear a gun properly. Seriously, who does not check the chamber as the last step to determine that a gun is unloaded? I realize that a number of firearms require the trigger to be pulled to disassemble the gun, but training and attention to detail is the correct answer to this question not another mechanical device in the gun.

I think the functional purpose of a mag safety is to disable the gun by removing the mag (duh), as a last line of defense in a struggle. There seem to be a number of anecdotes online involving police officers struggling with criminals, who drop the mag on purpose.

Makes sense. If you're jumped and they get a hand on your gun arm or gun, you're at a big disadvantage... you can't bring the gun into position, and you're fighting with one hand. Dropping the mag makes the gun harmless, so you can drop it to engage with both hands. Meanwhile your attacker is likely to try to take the gun, so he's going to be distracted from you. He picks the gun up, only to discover that it's inert... and you then have the upper hand, or at least you're not getting shot by your own gun.

 

[MedWheeler]

^^ That was one of the points made in one side of the debate over this when I was on the job and autoloaders were coming into heavy play. The argument for the other side was that, if it was the BG who dropped or dislodged your magazine while trying to get your gun from you, you could still use the one remaining round to get him off you. It's very easy to run out of steam fighting with someone while trying to retain control of your sidearm. Shooting an unarmed individual who is likely about to become armed with your gun if he's not shot is typically a justifiable act.
If he did get your gun, he'd have only one chance to shoot you with it; you would do what you could to make sure that shot wouldn't count.

I'd say about half the guys I worked with favored one school of thought, and the other half favored the other.

 

[BearBrimstone]

I like grip safeties and have never had an issue with one not working. To me they are a safety that I don't have to worry about. Its there but I don't even think about it while shooting. I also like the safety on a Beretta 92 and Beretta PX4. Positioning doesn't bother me and the fact that it physically moves the firing pin away from the chambered round makes me feel safer than with other types of safeties.

On the subject of magazine safeties, I too am not a fan but the reasoning I have heard for them does make a little sense. What I have always been told is that they are there to prevent accidental discharges from people that know nothing about guns and think that dropping the magazine means that the gun is unloaded.

 

[Winkman822]

The best safety that a gun can have is the user's brain (i.e. know and exercise basic gun safety). Aside from that the only necessary safety in my opinion is a thumb safety for an SAO pistol. Personally I find magazine disconnect safeties to be an idiotic idea for a pistol that is to be concealed carry as it is possible with some pistols to inadvertently press the magazine release depending on style of holster, where it is worn, and the body type of the person carrying it. As an example, years ago when I carried true small of the back (i.e. gun near horizontal with the grip angled upward for a strong hand palm in draw), I'd occasionally press the magazine release on the pistol (Glock 26 or 1911) with my spine if I was spending a lot of time seated. This is a catastrophic occurrence if you have a magazine disconnect safety and end up needing to fire. I've also inadvertently pressed the magazine release on my Wilson Combat CQB Compact 1911 when carried in a Galco Summer Comfort when the gun is carried at my 4:00 positioin and when I'm spending a lot of time seated in my car when I have to travel downstate for work or to the beach. I'm thin framed and drive a car with high side bolstered seats. My hip bone can pinch the mag release if I shift in the seat certain ways. Again, a catastrophic problem if I needed to use my gun and it had a magazine disconnect safety.

To be honest, the only necessary mechanical safety is a thumb safety for an SAO pistol or a decocking lever for a DA/SA gun. Every other mechanical safety to include grip safeties, the goofy trigger doodads (Glock, XD, M&P/FN hinge, etc) magazine disconnect safeties, the keyed mainspring locks (SA ILS, HK lockout, etc), firing pin blocks, etc. are all products of gun makers attempting to appease the anti gun lobby. The only exception on that list is the grip safety which J.M. Browning added to the 1911 design for the U.S. Government to adopt it and issue it to soldiers and sailors of the day up through the 1980's.

In regard to loaded chamber indicators. I'm not fond of those either. Take the extra second or two to visibly and physically check the condition of your weapon.

 

[herrwalther]

I like grip safeties and have never had an issue with one not working. To me they are a safety that I don't have to worry about. Its there but I don't even think about it while shooting. I also like the safety on a Beretta 92 and Beretta PX4. Positioning doesn't bother me and the fact that it physically moves the firing pin away from the chambered round makes me feel safer than with other types of safeties.

I have only seen a grip safety exactly once. It was my first time seeing a grip safety, it was on a Kimber 1911, not sure the model. The owner of the firearm was demonstrating how they work. He unloaded the firearm, pushed the safety, and pulled the trigger *Click*. Several obscenities followed from him along with "That wasn't supposed to happen." He didn't even load the firearm back up again and I know for a fact that 1911 took a trip back to Kimber. To this day I test all my grip safeties the same way, I don't want any surprises like that fellow.

 

[Ramey]

I like the safety on a 1911. I like the safety on my FNSc, though small it is positive. Never had a problem with the safety on my Beretta. Did not like the safety on the M&Pc. VERY SQUISHY. I require a safety on all my firearms.

 

[TarDevil]

I disagree. The LC9s that I mostly carry is virtually indistinguishable from a LC9s Pro aside from the mag disconnect and the frame safety. I bought mine because I got it brand new for $200 less than a "pro" model. I was willing to take on those two non wanted features for the difference in price. I carry it with the safety off because my other striker fired carry guns operate in the same manner, no thumb safety. And, the fact that most of these small sub compact guns with "thumb safeties" are laughable at best. Me carrying my LC9s with the safety off is no different than someone carrying a LC9s Pro.

The only type of "safety" I'd personally be comfortable with is a 1911 style extended. But even there it wouldn't be my first choice for carry. Simple is fast in a SD situation.

There IS a difference; the LC9s Pro does not have a safety that can be accidentally bumped to "on" position. If you are expecting the safety to be off when need that weapon, you'll have a bad day.

I've carried my LC9s daily and I can't count the times I upholstered at the end of the day to find that safety in a different position than I put it. And I use high quality holsters.

Each to his own, but I will never trust that safety to be off just because I put it there. My practice draws include swiping it off every single time.

 

[MedWheeler]

Herrwalther writes:

It was my first time seeing a grip safety, it was on a Kimber 1911, not sure the model. The owner of the firearm was demonstrating how they work. He unloaded the firearm, pushed the safety, and pulled the trigger *Click*. Several obscenities followed from him along with "That wasn't supposed to happen."

It's pretty early as I read this, but I don't think I'm reading it correctly. Are you saying the hammer dropped ("click") when the trigger was pulled with the grip safety "pushed"? Does "pushing" the grip safety mean squeezing it? In what position was the frame-mounted safety? The way I'm reading it, it sounds like it functioned normally, but the owner's reaction clearly indicates otherwise.

 

[98Redline]

Herrwalther writes:



It's pretty early as I read this, but I don't think I'm reading it correctly. Are you saying the hammer dropped ("click") when the trigger was pulled with the grip safety "pushed"? Does "pushing" the grip safety mean squeezing it? In what position was the frame-mounted safety? The way I'm reading it, it sounds like it functioned normally, but the owner's reaction clearly indicates otherwise.

I read the same thing. If the grip safety was depressed, even without gripping the gun and the trigger was pulled, the hammer should drop.
Now if you are saying he swiped off the manual safety, left the grip safety not depressed, pulled the trigger and dropped the hammer....now that would be a problem.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

There IS a difference; the LC9s Pro does not have a safety that can be accidentally bumped to "on" position. If you are expecting the safety to be off when need that weapon, you'll have a bad day.

I've carried my LC9s daily and I can't count the times I upholstered at the end of the day to find that safety in a different position than I put it. And I use high quality holsters.

Each to his own, but I will never trust that safety to be off just because I put it there. My practice draws include swiping it off every single time.

My response was directed more at the remark made about people not using safeties on guns that have them, I thought you said that but maybe it was someone else.

Your point is valid, however I check mine everyday when I pull my gear off and have NEVER found the safety flicked on. I have a very well made kydex holster that's very tight with excellent retention, the gun does not move at all in that holster. Never had it flick on when practicing drawing either.


As you said, to each their own. I will continue to carry mine with safety off. Along with trusting the safeties off I'll be trusting the gun functions properly and that I don't have a dud in the tube. I'll take my chances.

 

[TimboKhan]

I say blarg to mag disconnects. It won't stop me from buying a particular gun, but I think they are dumb.

I also am ambivalent about most safety devices in terms of love. I have guns with safeties, some without. I love none of them, though if I had to pick I would choose the revolver route and use a combination of brain, finger and a heavier DA pull.

 

[lsudave]

Might be just me, but different safety features don't bother me.

A gun's primary function and purpose is to shoot a bullet which can do extreme damage, possibly kill. If you are going to own one (or more), that needs to be understood, and taken into consideration whenever it is handled, and how it is stored. That's regardless of whether it is for personal self-protection, for range and target usage, for hunting, or just as part of a collection. It's not like, for example, a 1960's era 35mm camera, (which is also a nice example of bygone craftsmanship and better manufacturing materials), or the latest cellphone. You can't just pick it up and play with it, like you might with some other device. This is especially true if it can function with modern ammo... a 1910 Luger will fire a 9mm NATO rd just as well as a 2017 manufactured Shield, and kill you just as dead.

As such, it's a matter of responsibility to handle it safely, and to understand the safety features (and understand the non-safe features too).

A gun with several safeties- if you have one, you need to know how to operate it.

If you like that gun, you don't need to justify it, and people who demean it can kiss my behind. They can choose something they prefer.
I like metal frames, I like classic designs, I like the mechanical workmanship that you get in some older metal guns, like a fine-tuned clock. Sometimes different safeties are a result of different and unique designs that make a particular gun "neat" in my eyes.

I don't like Glocks, they just don't do it for me. I don't mock Glocks as a firearm, as they fire the ammo effectively. That particular feature is not in dispute; but the other features (or lack thereof) don't excite me. But then, I'm viewing this through a certain perspective- I'm close to 50, and have been handling firearms most of my life, and have owned pistols since my 20's. I have shot quite a few thousand rds while plinking, and have yet to shoot another person. I can't legally carry at my employment (hospital), doing so would not only be illegal but would end my career. I own a number of firearms. This is primarily a hobby for personal enjoyment, that if need be, can be pressed into service in a dire situation. If so, I expect the effect on the target to be the same from one of my pistols with a steel frame and a safety, as it would be from a polymer gun without one... as it is the same exact projectile. Might have some effect from my slightly longer barrels, but that would be minimal.

To those who rant on ad nauseum about how any safety is bad, I say: buy the gun you want (it's your choice), and quit antagonizing fellow gun-owners about their choices. We all enjoy the right to bear arms, we're on the same side... even if it doesn't feel like it sometimes.

 

[herrwalther]

It's pretty early as I read this, but I don't think I'm reading it correctly. Are you saying the hammer dropped ("click") when the trigger was pulled with the grip safety "pushed"? Does "pushing" the grip safety mean squeezing it? In what position was the frame-mounted safety? The way I'm reading it, it sounds like it functioned normally, but the owner's reaction clearly indicates otherwise.

I read the same thing. If the grip safety was depressed, even without gripping the gun and the trigger was pulled, the hammer should drop.
Now if you are saying he swiped off the manual safety, left the grip safety not depressed, pulled the trigger and dropped the hammer....now that would be a problem.

This is what happens when I don't proofread well. To clear up the owner unloaded his Kimber, thumb safety off, and held by the grip panels without pushing the grip safety while braced on a table we were talking around. The hammer dropped, thankfully on an empty chamber. Pushed in my original post was for the thumb safety being off but was confused for grip safety.

 

[Tallball]

"I'm close to 50, and have been handling firearms most of my life, and have owned pistols since my 20's. I have shot quite a few thousand rds while plinking, and have yet to shoot another person. I can't legally carry at my employment (hospital), doing so would not only be illegal but would end my career. I own a number of firearms. This is primarily a hobby for personal enjoyment, that if need be, can be pressed into service in a dire situation. If so, I expect the effect on the target to be the same from one of my pistols with a steel frame and a safety, as it would be from a polymer gun without one... as it is the same exact projectile. Might have some effect from my slightly longer barrels, but that would be minimal."


What he said. Just substitute in "51" and "school".

I don't use safeties, but they won't keep me from buying any particular handgun. The vast majority of mine are range toys or plinkers anyway, so if a safety accidentally gets switched on, NBD. My SD pieces are mostly revolvers anyway, plus two semi-autos with no safeties. I didn't like Glocks either... until I did.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

I know a lot of people hate the magazine disconnect, but here is my experience. When we were first allowed to have Semi-autos on our department mine was the S&W 659. We were actually trained that if we were fighting for our gun, to drop the mag. One night this happened to me on a lonely stretch of Highway, back up was a long way off. The drunk I was testing attacked me and was able to get my gun from it's holster (still used thumb snap holsters then). I held onto it for dear life with both hands, dropping my flashlight. I finally realized I wasn't going to easily get it from his hands, so I was able to drop the mag, which hit the ground. I let go and as he was trying to pull the trigger I retrieved my flashlight and knocked him in the head, ending the fight. So I am kind of partial to them, but I can see in the normal world some wouldn't be.

 

[JR24]

Of course the best safety on any pistol or revolver is the owner herself/himself, and the second best safety is a strong lockable safe, but with that said, I have settled on a the few pistol safeties that I think are worth having and the several safeties that I think should be tossed.

Your list may vary, but here is mine:

WINNERS: grip safety (Colt 1911's and XD), drop safety, magazine disconnect, loaded chamber indicator (like on the Glock but not like on the Ruger Mark III), and a minimum six pound trigger pull on DA or DAO revolvers.
LOSERS: keyed action safety (S&W), trigger safety widget (Glock), thumb safety (1911's and others), biometric or electrically dependent devices.
TIE: de-cockers

Though I am not as experienced as most here on The High Road, I have shot many different pistols and revolvers. I suppose it all comes down to preference but I think a grip safety, magazine disconnect, loaded chamber indicator, drop safety, and a proper trigger pull for pistol type are really the only safeties worth their engineering.

The keyed action safety is a political invention and not a safety at all, and the Glock-like trigger widgets fail every time a person accidentally pulls the trigger....so why have these features at all? And Murphy guarantees that exactly the time you need your pistol the most, the battery will fail on that $300 biometric holster.

The magazine disconnect is a personal favorite. For awhile I had to travel for work and my family and I would be at one apartment for a number of months at a time until we were moved to the next local. I always carried my S&W 5906 as I could leave it in the apartment with the magazine removed and in this manner it was still quickly accessible to my wife but not to our (then) very young children.

Do you agree with my list?

Don't really agree. SAO I'll take a thumb safety like a 1911. If you grip it right you pretty much cannot come on target without disengaging it, plus muscle memory (I swipe the "safety" on my Glocks constantly due to many 1911 presentations).

Grip safeties I can leave, and trigger dongles don't bother me either way.

Obviously the best safety resides between your ears.