Dead end designs.

[CapnMac]

I'm not sure why there aren't any roller-delayed pistols

Well, you are doing two things that do not always find favor in the gun purchasing (very much versus the gun imagining) community.

First sin is in adding required width to the slide (and typically the frame beneath).
Second sin is in increased the number of required parts.

Sliding ramp "browning style" lock up just requires a pin to hold the barrel.
Roller delay needs at least one roller, the moving wedge to engage/disengage the roller(s), typically a spring for either the roller or the locking wedge, and retaining pins for all the parts. And the pin that holds it all in the pistol, too.

Doesn't mean it doesn't work, only that you are adding parts. Oh, and disassembly can be a bear--it certainly was for my CZ-52. Which was nearly twice as wide as my SIG 365X

Now, in some fairness, flapper-delayed blowback pistols probably ought be more common. Mind, we gun owners are an obstinate bunch and will buy more locked breech firearms than unlocked, given the ability to do so. So, delayed blowback is not really a deadend, so much as a cul-de-sac.

Slide width is also what typically dooms double-feed designs--you need a bolt face (r some portion thereof) as wide as the centers of the rounds in the magazines. Feed ramp geometry is more than passing critical, too.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Because tech has advanced since the 1960s. Where as Computers were once so large you needed an entire room to house them now people have more capability with something they can fit inside a human ear.

Just what advancements allow a rocket from a handgun to outclass a bullet from the same handgun?

 

[CapnMac]

Just what advancements allow a rocket from a handgun to outclass a bullet from the same handgun?

Especially as a conventional bullet is at maximum velocity at or near the muzzle, and a rocket-propelled one will not achieve maximum velocity until some point beyond the nuzzle.

And, like the Volcanic rounds, the mass of the bullet is constantly decreasing, unlike a conventional bullet.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Especially as a conventional bullet is at maximum velocity at or near the muzzle, and a rocket-propelled one will not achieve maximum velocity until some point beyond the nuzzle.

And, like the Volcanic rounds, the mass of the bullet is constantly decreasing, unlike a conventional bullet.

The Gyrojet was designed by a man who didn't understand physics/

 

[CapnMac]

who didn't understand physics

Or, grokked physics, but not projectile physics.

 

[starling]

Just what advancements allow a rocket from a handgun to outclass a bullet from the same handgun?

It might help you to think of the Gyrojet as a repeating launching platform for the civilian market instead of just a handgun or rifle. The inventor designed a rifle 60+ years ago and people still cant wrap their heads around it. No worries.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It might help you to think of the Gyrojet as a repeating launching platform for the civilian market instead of just a handgun or rifle. The inventor designed a rifle 60+ years ago and people still cant wrap their heads around it. No worries.

And what is it this launching platform can do that a conventional cartridge handgun cannot?

 

[starling]

sheesh... here, this may help you... Read it for yourself.

http://modernfirearms.net/en/handguns/handguns-en/u-s-a-semi-automatic-pistols/gyrojet-eng/

 

[Vern Humphrey]

sheesh... here, this may help you... Read it for yourself.

http://modernfirearms.net/en/handguns/handguns-en/u-s-a-semi-automatic-pistols/gyrojet-eng/

I've actually shot the thing, remember?

 

[starling]

I've actually shot the thing, remember?

Great, I am happy for you!.. Not many people have had that experience. Lots on info out there on what the goals and ideas were behind the design so its not hidden information. I encourage firearms enthusiests to read up on designs like the Gyrojet.

Or dont... no worries.

 

[Dragonfly]

I’ve got a real affection for the unique 9mm pistols from the late 1960s to mid-1980s and have managed to pick up most of them.


Benelli B76 Target with inertia locking mechanism


Browning BDM with “dual mode” DA/SA and DA only modes


H&K VP70z—the first polymer-frame pistol with straight blowback action. The rifling was extra deep to allow some gas blowby to reduce the intensity of the blowback action.


Steyr GB with gas delayed blowback action


H&K P7 with a different type of gas delayed blowback action


H&K P9S Target (this one is in .45ACP) with roller-locked action

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The NJ State Police adopted the Heckler and Koch P7M8 in the 1980s, the troopers didn't like it, it required too different a drawing technique, hand positioning.

 

[Tallball]

IIRC, there were some serious revolver dead-ends that were trying to A: use cartridges and B: get past the "S&W" patent on bored-through cylinders.

 

[Pat Riot]

I get a kick out of the folks forecasting the demise of “striker fired poly pistols”. I think they’re hoping or wishing will not affect reality. These guns are here to stay and here is why I think that.

When I was in the Navy (‘79-‘83) and soon after getting out there were people forecasting the demise of the 1911 and the M16 / AR15.
In my opinion the one thing that saved the 1911 is the design became Legos / Barbies for men. Lots of folks still lived the design and expanded on it.
The AR15, considered a “poodle shooter” when I was in the Navy stayed alive in the military, even the Navy reluctantly went with them in time.
Over time lots of people had experience with them via military service then they too became Legos / Barbies for men.

I am not trying to pee on anyone’s parade. This is just my opinion.

If striker fired poly pistols were so bad then why does every pistol maker copy Glock’s designs and make their own versions?
Striker fired poly pistols are here to stay. And thankfully, so are 1911s and ARs.

My two cents.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, the Rollin White patent evasion models. Practically all required proprietary cartridges that quickly disappeared. Then there were the teat fires, the pinfires, etc. Once the patents expired in 1869 other manufacturers could make cylinders bored all the way through.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The Savage 1907 introduced a double column/double feed system, as well as a radial, delayed blowback action. They are pleasant to shoot, tho' it's not clear how much difference the radial blowback makes.... .32 Auto blowbacks are pretty mellow anyway.
They are even striker fired, an exposed hammer notwithstanding.
The things are beautifully made, and even Bat Masterson liked them...or at least cashed the check for the endorsement.
Moon

 

[mjsdwash]

The most successful rifle in non-governmental history uses a transient gas system not seen on any other mainstream firearm of the last 70 years or so. While hardly a dead end in terms of sales, it seems to be a dead end in designs. I personally like it.

 

[CDW4ME]

Revolvers - they started out only holding 5-7 rounds and with few exceptions other than 22 still do. Capacity deficient design.

 

[eddiememphis]

In the last 50 years-
There has been more innovation in handgun design than in rifles.
There has been more innovation in rifle cartridge design than in handguns.

 

[wcwhitey]

I look at the designs of the end of the 19th Century and beginning of the 20th as evolutionary times. No really poor designs being that they did not have much to fall back in. Eventually every gun stole something from on of those designs even if it was just a spring design and they evolved into what we have today. I heard someone say something the other day about just this I will paraphrase “Even if they had unlimited funds in 1905 they just did not have to processes of machining and the steel to do what we do today”. The conversation was about steel and the context was that it wasn’t until the 1930’s and WW2 that metallurgy really became great. Made sense to me. I just assume that the designs were evolving and based on the machine processes and materials available at the time. What would JMB think about Glock, he would probably appreciate the engineering and be jealous of the polymer. George Luger would still think he was the best!

 

[d'zaster]

I’ve got a real affection for the unique 9mm pistols from the late 1960s to mid-1980s and have managed to pick up most of them.

View attachment 1106433
Benelli B76 Target with inertia locking mechanism

Dragonfly, That Benelli B76 is classy looking.

 

[Archie]

This idea of design dead ends and positive evolution of designs are what makes collecting old handguns so interesting.

When the S&W Escort (M61) was introduced in 1970, people and gun writers were astounded (at least publicly) by the "overhead" mainspring (above rather than below the barrel). However, the first use of an over barrel spring was featured in the first handgun designed by John M. Browning, the FN1899/1900 pistol. A mere seventy years prior.

Much of the dead ends in firearms history were due to a few constant recurring problems:
One was the design just didn't work. Either the design was flawed, or the design required a degree of machining not able at the time.
Two, it just cost too much to make and sell profitably. (Actually, this can somewhat be combined with the machining problem above.)
Three, the design was too odd looking. The Spanish (Basque) made Jo lo Ar is an excellent example.
In addition to funny looking, no one wanted a handgun that did the same thing as an extant one and cost more.

The 1907 Savage was a decent pistol for the time, but the rotating barrel which turned the arm into a delayed blow back action was clever and useful in the .45 ACP Government Model, but didn't sell as well as the 1903 Colt Pocket Pistol firing the same round.

One could write a book... Now that's a great idea!

It is a fascinating subject.

 

[citizenconn]

Ohh, they will, just be patient - rumors are, that gun companies are working on some new and revolutionary mechanism that they call "hammer fired"... Never seen before!

 

[HPJeep]

Hudson H9. Not sure if it was really a dead end design as much as it needed more development time and better management.

 

[Riomouse911]

The Pedersen delayed-blowback design that was killed by the poorly executed 2013-version Remington R-51.

The Chiappa Rhino is another “one and done” IMHO. I haven’t shot one but those who have report muzzle flip is reduced compared to traditional DA revolvers. Even with that plus, I just cant get past the visuals.

Stay safe.