The US Military Has Been Using Substandard Firearms For Over A Century

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Cosmoline

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This will certainly get me lynched, but inspired by the Garand thread, I thought I'd give a little historical rundown of US service rifles.

Krag-Jorgensen Rifle--This is a neat, fast little rifle. I like the Krag. I've always wanted one. But compared with the other rifles available in the 1890's, it was second rate and should never have been issued to our troops. The 1891 Mauser, 1891 Mosin-Nagant, 1893 Mauser, and arguably even the horrible old Commisssion Mauser and Lebel were better rifles. Certainly the '91, '93 and later Mausers, along with the Mosin, have shown themselves far superior with the test of time. The Krag's lack of safety features prevented the design from making the critical leap to high-pressure spitzer rounds after 1905.

Springfield 1903--Ah, the legendary Springfield. The Springfield that Sgt. York won his Medal of Honor with. Or not, as it turns out. Actually, I'm talking about the Springfield that was a second-rate Mauser knockoff. The one that landed us in court and forced us to pay royalties to Mauser. That one. The sad thing is, there were podunk South American republics that had Mausers orders of magnitude better than our Springfields. But to prevent the indignity of buying foreign rifles, we stuck the troops with second best.

Enfield 1917--This is the single exception to the rule. The Eddystone Enfield was an extremely strong rifle with good sights and a solid design. But it wasn't made here so there was no chance of it ousting the Springfield. As a result it was relegated to rear guard use or sold off as surplus.

M-1 Garand--The Garand wasn't the worst rifle we could have given our troops, but it was far from the "The greatest battle implement ever devised". Very far. As a tactical matter its adoption reinforced the old pattern of using troops for massed rifle fire instead of as support for a quality machine gun or other heavy weapon. Zee Germans had long since figured out that the machine gun should be the centerpiece of every unit, and this novel idea was a key element to their success both on the offensive and defending positions. The Garand's clip system was archaic and, as I've pointed out elsewhere, it's overlong .30'06 was underloaded. It could have been shrunk down to take a more appropriate cartridge, and to his credit IIRC Mr. Garand wanted this to happen but his idea was rejected.

M-14--The criticisms and problems here are well known. The M-14 in full auto was said to be impossible to control, and it overwhelmed the soldiers trying to use it. But frankly I think it was sold short. If it had been altered to semiauto and if less had been expected of it, I think the M-14 could have served well. Indeed it still is serving well in the role of a semiauto sniper.

M-16--A plastic rifle firing a gopher cartridge. What's not to like? The mascinations and showmanship that went on to get it adopted are well known and pretty disgusting. The rifle is expensive, touchy about ammo and not nearly powerful enough. Its minimal recoil may be easy on the shoulders of recruits, but this only invites "spray and pray" shooting. The round's only saving grace is the fact that its bullets tend to fail massively on impact, thus skirting the Hague Convention.
 
Arm everyone with top of the line $5000 match-grade Accuracy International AWPs and have a support gunner on an M240G, right?

edit: don't forget the handloads that everyone will need for their match rifles.
 
> The US Military Has Been Using Substandard Firearms For Over A Century

Has anyone notified all those dead Nazis, Imperial Japanese, North Koreans, Communist Chinese, NVA, VC, etc.? :evil:
 
Does it really matter as long as they go "Bang" and hit things at 400-500 meters and don't break alot?
 
I'm not going to be fancy, you're mostly wrong. No, scratch that. You're entirely wrong.

Have a nice day.
 
In what way were the Mausers better than the Springfield?


As a tactical matter its adoption reinforced the old pattern of using troops for massed rifle fire instead of as support for a quality machine gun or other heavy weapon.

I think it improved on the American doctrine of fire and manuever- between squads of rifleman with the high rate of fire M1 and the BAR, the American units could outflank German units.

The Garand's clip system was archaic and, as I've pointed out elsewhere, it's overlong .30'06 was underloaded.

And how is stripper clips into a fixed 5 round magazine, such as in the Mauser or Mosin rifles any better?

The .30-06 is too large for an infantry cartridge, but the difference in power between M2 ball and other loadings is a non-issue.

A plastic rifle firing a gopher cartridge. What's not to like?The mascinations and showmanship that went on to get it adopted are well known and pretty disgusting. The rifle is expensive, touchy about ammo and not nearly powerful enough. Its minimal recoil may be easy on the shoulders of recruits, but this only invites "spray and pray" shooting. The round's only saving grace is the fact that its bullets tend to fail massively on impact, thus skirting the Hague Convention.

What's wrong with plastic? And as to the cartridge, you seem to sum it up well at the end. 5.56mm is very destructive in soft-tissue, at least as much if not more than the various FMJ .30 rounds.

I'd say the mistruths and sabatoge of early M-16 tests by die-hard traditionalists is what was pretty disgusting. An M-16 is less than an M-14 or Garand to manufacture, due to its plastic furniture and alloy receivers, requiring less expensive forging and milling than previous rifles. Touchy about ammo? Yeah, well, a FAL or an AK or any gun will malfunction given the wrong type of ammuntion for its design parameters, so what? Minimal recoil invites spray and pray shooting? Not to well trained troops. I've heard reports from Iraq where locals and non-military types have thought the Marines were all snipers due to the sheer volume of headshots- the M-16A4 and ACOG make a deadly combo.

At the end though, none of this really matters- no battle has been won or lost based soley on the quality or lack there of of the qualities of one side's rifle.
 
You must admit I'm not alone in my opinion of the Krag and Springfield. The fact is they were inferior to bolt action rifles of the day. Compare the Springfield with the Mauser '98. The Mauser is stronger and better made, but otherwise the actions are very similar. It would have been far better for the US to simply do what dozens of other countries did and simply use a proper Mauser instead of stealing the design. Our troops would have been better served, and with pre-war German engineering assistance our small arms factories would not have made the well-known mistakes with the receivers.

The Garand's clips are en banc. The rifle can't be used without them. Mauser or Mosin strippers are not the same at all. They're merely a quicker means of loading the magazine. The cartridges can be loaded one at a time.
 
As far as the M-16, the cartridge it uses is entirely inappropriate as a main-line battle cartridge. It was in fact designed to kill small varmints, nothing more. And it does a darn good job at that. It's very fast and has great inherent accuracy. But human beings are not your average varmint. An adult male human weighs 80 times more than a prairie dog. The bullet's monumental FAILURE on impact with something as large as a person is hardly something to brag about. I would say the .223 is better than a handgun, and OK for a carbine. But it has no place as our main line battle cartridge. The AR-15 itself has a lot going for it as a target rifle or, again, as a varmint rifle. But its tolerances are too tight for use in the field and it must be cleaned multiple times a day in rough conditions or it will start to fail. This is an inherent design defect of monumental proportions. The rifle we give our troops must be able to withstand several weeks or months of use without being stripped down and cleaned. We should accept nothing less than perfection. Instead we tolerate plastic junk.
 
Some valid points here.

The '03 Springfield was not quite as bombproof as the 98 Mauser.

The M1 Garand was originally made up for the .276 Pedersen ctg which would not have been a bad choice at all. Believe that the .276 clip was a 10 rounder. Staying with the .30 caliber was a matter of economics in the middle of a depression--lots of .30 cal ammo already on hand. John Garand was well aware that a box mag was an alternative to a clip; the army wanted the clip system--which had and still has its points. That we had the Garand at all was more luck and Mr. Garand's perseverance than any institutional brilliance.

The M14 in semiauto may have actually been the best battle rifle we have had.

Even though the M16 was my generation's rifle, I have never warmed to it much and still can't. There was a post on Blackfive today from a Marine NCO concerning his M-16--well maintained, he still had two jams with it in a ten minute period in a firefight.

Ezell's book "The Black Rifle" covers a lot of these same points. I found it disconcerting on first reading but he backed up his position pretty convincingly.
 
As far as the M-16, the cartridge it uses is entirely inappropriate as a main-line battle cartridge.

I don't know ham many times I've heard armchair engineers say this. Does anyone actually have any real evidence that the .223 is ineffective at killing people? Or is it all just based on some guy picking up a .223 round and thinking "Gee whiz, this here tiny round ain't big enough to kill nothin'... now 30-06, *there's* a cartridge" :rolleyes:

Here's some FACTS to consider before slamming the .223:

1. It's lighter, so you can carry more
2. Less recoil, so you can shoot faster
3. Flatter trajectory than 7.62x39, .308, etc...
4. 1300 ft-lbs of energy kills people just fine.

it [the AR-15] must be cleaned multiple times a day in rough conditions or it will start to fail.

Ummm, so must any rifle, including the "unjammable" AK-47.

BTW, If the AR is such a crappy rifle, why does it OWN 3 gun competition? Why is it so popular with SWAT teams and SF guys?

We should accept nothing less than perfection.

You ever priced out the cost of perfection?

Instead we tolerate plastic junk.

If it ain't made of iron and wood, it ain't a weapon! A REAL man will only shoot a REAL rifle! Ma gran' pappy always told me that you can't never trust no new fangled, fancy shmancy.... modern day................. zzzzzzz.....



The M-14 in full auto was said to be impossible to control

That's because it wasn't using the "gopher cartridge" .223. You can't have it both ways. Let me see if I got this straight, your ideal rifle would shoot a bullet at 4000+ fps and have greater killing power than a .308, but have no recoil and shoot light weight ammo. The rifle itself would be accurate yet 100% reliable, lightweight yet never overheat, and would be cheap yet not be manufactured from "plastic junk". Sounds great, where do I sign up?


At the end though, none of this really matters- no battle has been won or lost based soley on the quality or lack there of of the qualities of one side's rifle.
The Spanish-American War might be an exception to this...
 
The real problem with this thread is shown in the title:
The US Military Has Been Using Substandard Firearms For Over A Century
I've put the relevant word in bold print. What is defined as the "standard"? If a firearm is "substandard", to which standard are we referring?

I'd suggest that the issue weapons of the US armed forces have conformed fairly well to the "standard" in use elsewhere in the world at the time of issue. There have been some less "good" than the "standard" used elsewhere, but others have been significantly "better" than the "standard" used by other countries. Let's do a quick look:

Krag-Jorgensen: Definitely below the "standard" set by the Mauser line, but not bad by other standards of the day (late 19th century). The magazine system was a definite "plus".

Springfield: Not as good as the Mauser, but probably as good as the British Lee-Enfield.

Enfield 1917: Probably the best-ever US bolt-action rifle, equal to anyone else's offering in that action.

Garand: Superior in speed of loading and fire to any other issue rifle in the late 1930's - early 1940's time period. Only "bettered", if that's the word, by the German STG-44, the grandfather of modern assault rifles, which was never a major factor on the battlefield because of limited production.

M14: The cartridge was too powerful for a full-auto weapon. As a semi-auto rifle, it was (and still is) a fine weapon, probably equivalent to the FN-FAL adopted by much of the rest of the world at the time (although my personal preference, and combat experience, was with the latter rifle). The last US "battle rifle".

M16: I loathe the M16/AR15 design, and have seen far, far too many function problems to trust my life to it. This dates from early experience in the 1970's through to today's high-quality civilian-production AR15's. I just don't trust this weapons system, period. I would also suggest that the rest of the world has adopted significantly better rifles in this category - several based on the Russian AK system, such as the Finnish Valmet and Israeli Galil; the SIG and HK offerings; the Korean Daewoo, etc. All of these rifles had much better and more reliable gas operating systems, which remains the biggest single weakness of the M16/AR15. I have to agree that in adopting the M16, the US handicapped its armed forces to a truly horrible extent, and many GI's lost their lives as a result. A thoroughly unsatisfactory combat weapon.

So, with the exception of the M16, we see that US weapons have not been too far off the "standard" prevailing at the time of their issue. Substandard? Not really.

As far as modern weapons go, I'd suggest that we would have to establish a set of criteria against which to measure weapon performance, and then assess each individual weapon against those criteria. The M16/AR15 would probably do OK in terms of weight, ergonomics, accuracy, etc. However, to me, reliability and toughness rate much higher in importance than weight and accuracy - so I think the AK design, and its many derivatives, would have to rate far higher in terms of the "standard" that a modern rifle must meet.
 
"The rifle we give our troops must be able to withstand several weeks or months of use without being stripped down and cleaned."

Tell ya what-unless you are carrying a BFR as your main battle weapon, you WILL regularly break down and care for your weapon in any unit I ever served in. Period. End of discussion. Know it. Learn it. Live it.

Never carried a Krag, Springfield or a Garand. Shot some Krag rifles in sporting situations, and that was by far the smoothest working bolt I have operated. I suppose that having a single lug might have had something to do with it. That it wasn't a very strong action is clear, but I liked the magazine of the rifle. The Garand en-bloc was a mistake, but if the Italians could fix it, ala BM-59, I suppose we could have too. The rest of the weapon was top notch, and was improved on with the M-14. Full auto? Not necessary or really desireable.

The M-16 will never never live down its initial failure, and thats no fault of the rifle. The Garand had a long gestation period and was properly tested before issue. The M-16 was shoved down the throats of the military, and was designed to use IMR powder, yet issue ammo was ball, with predictable result. When you tell the troops they have a "self cleaning rifle", and fail to issue proper cleaning equipment, you have a ready made disaster on your hands. I missed the original issue, but carried an A1 for the better part of a decade, and never had a problem. Might be that because I tended to the rifle properly. Some guys had problems, and in every case I remember, it turned out to be poor maintenence and/or bent magazines.
 
I guess we might liken like this. The M16 is the M1 Carbine of today? Everyone complains about the weak cartridge of both!
 
Preacherman,

I agree wholeheartedly with your responses except one...

You were a little too easy with the mattel. If someone tried to GIVE me one, I would take it and sell it to some shmoe and with the proceeds purchase a firearm more reliable and able to operate in nastier conditions.

When I was in the military I felt that the M-16 would make a very poor club, due to the bakelite/plastic it was made out of...which is why they issued us an E-tool, I feel.

I have owned a FAL...one of the best, all around battle rifles ever made...save one issue...weight...must remember...the good Lord gives with one hand and takes away with the other...and the comment about the AK-47 needing cleaning? You must have had one of those westernized AK's then with a tight chamber and closer tolerances...the original design was made for a, well, forgive me if I insult anyone, but it was designed for a peasant to operate and field strip...a person who might have rudimentary training on how to work on a tractor beforhand...which is why they use bailing wire springs and retainers and such in the rifle. The Mattel was shoved down the throats of the Dept. of Ordnance by Kennedy's little brain-trust. They (Dept of Ord) were actually going to go with a semi-auto M-14 as Canada and the rest of the UK had with their SLR's (FAL)...If my history is incorrect, then please let me know so that I may correct myself and thoughts.

MTCW
 
Its interesting, ive seen 10+ posts on various threads and forums supporting the m-16..and 10+ posts hating it.

Incredibly each has had its own variety of posters...the "Leet"(kids who go with the porcalien spray painyted glock), the real, the civilians, and the armchair generals.

Mereky be it for one own to find out of ones self.
 
I buy into the M1 being "…the greatest battle implement ever devised" at the time based on talks I have had with vets who used them in actual combat. Sadly, all my friends, acquaintances, and family members who fought in WW II are all dead now, but I still know one living USMC veteran who fought in the Korean War during the early 1950s. He carried his M1 through some of the fiercest fighting in some of the harshest conditions and still admires the weapon. Patton might have coined the phrase, but I believe it based on the testimony of rank and file soldiers who actually carried the rifles into combat.
 
A few points

When you consider that Governments decide what is issued to their troops, you have to appreciate that other than the best will probably be provided. There are many factors that drive their decision making, perhaps least of all what the troops want. In all fairness, I will also say that the military services shoot themselves in the foot quite regularly, fixing what ain't broke or bucking something because they didn't think of it first. :rolleyes:

I won't address the bolt guns as I think they are so archaic as to preclude serious scrutiny. Yes the M1903 was a Mauser knockoff, as was the M1917 Enfield, an Enfield in name only as the British ordered a bunch of the Mauser derivatives iin 303 to replace the Lee Enfields, however cancelled when they couldn't pay. Remington converted them to 30/06 and sold them to the US govt. Alvin York used the Enfield in the Meuse-Argonne action, btw.

Most of the US-issued weapons have been 2nd or 3rd best, I'll agree. However, the M1 Rifle (Garand) was the top of the heap at the time it was needed. No other govt at the time issued such a fine weapon to all their troops. The 30 M1 Carbine is just too cute to not like and most GIs of WWII age have fond memories of the gun but not its performance.

The M14 was the govt going back to cheap mindedness, trying to convert the Garand to somethin better without spending much. It was said to replace the BAR, the rifle, the carbine, and the M3 grease gun. You tell me how well it filled all those roles.

The M16xx is a very good gun. I have used it and think it second to nothing else out there. Yep, the AKxx is very good also, but about as ergonomic and handy as a 4x4. The comments about plastic, Mattel, etc. notwithstanding, I think mostly are sour grapes. I have and do use mine and feel it has few limitations compared to other weapons. The remarks about "battle rifle" calibers and "varmint calibers" do not deserve serious consideration. The 223/5.56mm has a 40 year track record, as long as anything the US has fielded that didn't load from the muzzle. :rolleyes: Some people are never satisfied. :uhoh: But you already probably knew that. :neener:

The one gun the US adopted that was the best of its kind was the product improved 1911, the 1911A1. There has been no significantly better automatic pistol designed or fielded by anybody I'm aware of.

YMMV JMTC Etc.
 
I gotta go with Preacherman. What do you define as standard?

With the exception of the improper heat treating, no fault of the gun, I fail to see how an 03 is substandard to a Mauser. And IIRC, the court battle was over the stripper clip idea.

As for the 1917, it was too made here.

As for the M1, again, the standard capacity of a rifle at that time was 5. 8 may be underpowerd by today's standards, but then, no. And I still fail to see how the bloc is though of as bad, because you can't shoot the gun without one, and a magazine is good, because the gun works so well without one.

If you are comparing them to a FAL, or AK of course they are going to be inferior. But just because one country had something better, doesn't make them substandard. I fail to see, for example, how a Mosin is superior to a Springfield. Or a Steyr straight pull is. Sure, the 98 may be a bit stronger, but the sights are awful.
 
The key to battle rifles

if you look back historically was steadily to increase the rate of fire... So,

KJ- no real inprovement there, inferior to strength and durabiltyas opposedto Mauser

'03 Springfield-roughly equivalent to Mauser-decent loading, Ditto the Enfield

M1 Garand--superior to Mausers it was used against in that it was faster to load (although a little weird,with the enbloc clips)...Again,upping the rate of fire.

M-14--The Garand on steroids--Great idea, until you tried to make it full auto, but as a semi, IMHO the best we ever came up with, weight notwithstanding.

M-16-- THE biggest POS we've ever fielded...and 40 years later, still far from optimum...Unreliable in field coditions, without constant attention/cleaning, and the 5.56 is a joke(Read "BlackHawk Down"...then read it again.) Using a bloody varmint round in a battle rifle...PLEASE.
 
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