Deadly force authorized

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IMO, you just have to know the laws for the state you're in. When I moved to Texas, I spent about 3 weeks researching the different statutes and laws and asking questions on various forums. Hell, when I went to change my DL over, I chewed the fat for a bit with a DPS officer that was there. In the eyes of the law, there is no excuse for not knowing the law.
 
How does one know the fight will stop with a punch to the nose? How does one know this? It seems to me if someone attacks you then your life is in danger unless you just came from a crystal ball reading. The use of force in both instances is just in my little old eyes.
You cannot go around killing people simply because you are afraid they might possibly have the ability to kill you. The law doesn't work that way (even in Texas).

You may lawfully use deadly force whenever there is an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.

In order to know whether the danger is as serious as you believed, serious enough to justify deadly force, the jury will be instructed to ask itself whether a reasonable and prudent person, knowing what you knew at the time, would have adjudged the danger to be that extreme. The question asked of the jury will NOT be whether you as the defendant were afraid; it will be whether a reasonable, non-paranoid, non-gun-nut, ordinary human being would have been afraid of dying from a fistfight.

You will not find 12 people anywhere in this country (even in Texas) who would buy the idea that a healthy adult male was reasonably in fear for his life from an unarmed assailant of roughly equal size. That's because no reasonable and prudent person really expects one person to be able to kill another with his bare hands in a fist fight. The reasonable expectation is that both end up with bruises, one guy with more bruises than the other, and then they will both go home and brag about kicking the other guy's rear end.

pax
 
My take on all of this, is that the serious student gets training and knows the law. Postulating on scenarios is much more useful and worthwhile from a base of real knowledge.

The legalities, use of force continuum concept, various techniques that enable you disengage, etc. are all important.

I understand that price can hurt but one can get a good weekend course that would do the internet zombie hunter a world of good for about $350. Save up and do this.

Jeff Cooper said that having a gun doesn't make you a gunfighter anymore than owning a plane makes you a pilot. Too many internet pilots here should heed his advice.
 
You will not find 12 people anywhere in this country (even in Texas) who would buy the idea that a healthy adult male was reasonably in fear for his life from an unarmed assailant of roughly equal size. That's because no reasonable and prudent person really expects one person to be able to kill another with his bare hands in a fist fight. The reasonable expectation is that both end up with bruises, one guy with more bruises than the other, and then they will both go home and brag about kicking the other guy's rear end.

Yes, and no. In a "normal" fight, that is certainly the case. But if one person gains a significant advantage over the other (i.e. one person knocked to the ground with the other still standing), things can quickly escalate to a deadly force situation. A good kick to the head can kill instantly, and a kick to the chest or abdomen can deliver a crippingling and/or lethal injury through crushing of tissue if it's to an area against the ground or something other object that prevents the body from moving instinctively to cushion the blow.

Disparity of force can still exist between opponents of equal size if one obtains an advantage and makes clear the intent to use that advantage to the fullest.
 
pax, those are all good points.

But how do you know that the other person in the fight is also a reasonable person? How do you know that person will stop if you are knocked down? Or will they then kick you in the back of the head? Or in the stomach resulting in a ruptured spleen? Where do you draw the line between "bodily injury" and "serious bodily injury".

Indiana does not define the terms, at least not where I can find them, but use of deadly force is justified in Indiana when there is a reasonable belief that deadly force is needed to prevent or end the threat of serious bodily injury or death. Maybe this has been determined by case law, but that would be a lot of research.
 
You will not find 12 people anywhere in this country (even in Texas) who would buy the idea that a healthy adult male was reasonably in fear for his life from an unarmed assailant of roughly equal size. That's because no reasonable and prudent person really expects one person to be able to kill another with his bare hands in a fist fight. The reasonable expectation is that both end up with bruises, one guy with more bruises than the other, and then they will both go home and brag about kicking the other guy's rear end.

In Texas, I believe you do not have to be in fear for your life to draw your weapon as long as you are doing it to protect yourself against your opponent's use or attempted use of unlawful force. (Relevant statues below.).

I don't know about anyone else, but getting into a fist fight when carrying doesn't sound like the greatest idea to me.

PC §9.04.

Threats as Justifiable Force

The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

PC §9.31.

Self-Defense

(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:

(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c);

(3) if the actor consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other;

(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless:

(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and

(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor; or

(5) if the actor sought an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor's differences with the other person while the actor was:

(A) carrying a weapon in violation of Section 46.02; or

(B) possessing or transporting a weapon in violation of Section 46.05.

(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:

(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

(d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.
 
DragonGoddess...

How does one know the fight will stop with a punch to the nose? How does one know this? It seems to me if someone attacks you then your life is in danger unless you just came from a crystal ball reading. The use of force in both instances is just in my little old eyes.

So by the same logic, I should point a gun at anyone who raises their tone with me, because after all, i don't know that they aren't psychotic killers. After all, I didn't have my crystal ball reading today, so I'd better shoot them, just to be safe.

A fight can excilate to a deadly force scenario, but not start as one. It's important to know the difference.

A simple fist fight is not a life-threatening situation. When it escalates to a life threatening situation, then and only then you should respond accordingly.

If someone approaches you in an angry way, it is not immediate just cause to reveal a weapon. If you do, legally or not, you are a coward in my book. Where's the honor and pride, guys?
 
That's your interpretation of the situation. Every self-defense statute I'm familiar with depends on a reasonable person's interpretation of the danger they are in. Your interpretation of somebody taking a swing at you doesn't escalate to deadly force... and that's fine for you.

MY interpretation of someone trying to hit me is that they are going to continue to do so, and then take my gun and shoot me. Therefore, virtually every physical confrontation I may face has the potential to result in deadly violence, and I will react accordingly. Even if they don't know I carry a gun, they may find it during the fight while we're wrestling around.

Self-defense, and defense of my loved ones and others is not based on pride, and honor lies in victory. If two badguys beat me up to the point I'm disabled, and then assault my wife... where is my pride and honor then?

Every situation is different and requires evaluation. However, my default setting is that anone assaulting me intends to kill me or do serious bodily harm. police officers have a continuum of force they can use, most private persons do not... we don't have OC spray, a baton and a taser... we only have our hands and our guns. I'm not getting in a fistfight with multiple opponents, or even one opponent, when I have a gun on my hip. Combatives are for gaining time and distance to draw your weapon and end the fight one way or another.


In situation 1, I was not affraid for my life, as it was clear to me that the young man was just angry and wanted to hit me. It was a judgement call, and I was pretty sure that he was not inteding to severly hurt me, just to have a scuffle.

As far as I can tell, no one has said this except for you. You should draw your weapon when you feel your life is in danger.... whenever that is. It's different for each person, and for each situation. Even someone who discharges a firearm at you MIGHT not be trying to kill you, they MIGHT just be trying to scare you. You will never know for absolute certain if someone intends to kill you until you are dead.

So by the same logic, I should point a gun at anyone who raises their tone with me, because after all, i don't know that they aren't psychotic killers. After all, I didn't have my crystal ball reading today, so I'd better shoot them, just to be safe.
 
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xpvideo, a couple of punches to the face don't impress you, OK. I know of a one two combo to the face that come like one punch that are fatal nearly 90% of the time. I, for one don't intend to wait and see if my unknown angry assailant is wise enough in this venue to know this combo or kata as you might call it.
 
I can't agree with this statement. It's true you have to reasonably believe your life is in danger, but the only way to be absolutely sure is to be dead. Even if someone pulls a gun, you can't be SURE they will shoot until they actually do.

It has often been the case, given the totality of the situation, that badguys have threatened then"reached" for a nonexistant gun in an attempt to intimidate, and then been shot by their intended victim.

If you aren't allowed to use your firearm to defend yourself from an unarmed assailant, then criminals logically should attack police officers during their arrest when the officer has them at gunpoint... since the officer won't be able to shoot them and will have to fight with only one hand while holding their useless gun with the other.

Further, LEOs have othert options that aren't available to private citizens. I don't believe the law says I HAVE to get into a fistfight with a mugger because I'm male.


You may lawfully use deadly force whenever there is an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.
 
The problem with Texas law is I am not allowed very many less than lethal options if I end up in a "situation". In NM I would carry an ASP (or at least I used to, the law may have changed) which kept stuff from getting to the point where a weapon might be needed. Of course in NM I often encountered fights that involved a gang of guys beating the snot out a a single guy. Using the AOJ triangle can be helpful, but not always. I just wish I could carry a "club" for those times when pulling a gun is too much, but getting pounded on and losing your gun is not really an option.
 
If you aren't allowed to use your firearm to defend yourself from an unarmed assailant, then criminals logically should attack police officers during their arrest when the officer has them at gunpoint... since the officer won't be able to shoot them and will have to fight with only one hand while holding their useless gun with the other.

Given their position as society's representative and enforcer of order, officers have the authorization to use overwhelming force against an attacker. That's why an officer can use a baton (legally, a club or bludgeon which can constitute a deadly weapon) against an unarmed attacker in order to gain compliance. They can't use excessive force (such as shooting an unarmed attacker until said attacker is in a position to inflict deadly force such as by grabbing the weapon or the officer's neck), but they can use a far greater degree of force than an average citizen can in repelling an attack.
 
Even someone who discharges a firearm at you MIGHT not be trying to kill you, they MIGHT just be trying to scare you. You will never know for absolute certain if someone intends to kill you until you are dead.
That's true. You can't read someone else's mind, and the law does not expect you to do so. That's why the reasonable person standard exists. Instead of being instructed to ask whether the attacker really intended to kill you -- a completely unanswerable question, even if the attacker is still alive -- the jury will instead be instructed to ask whether a reasonable person, knowing what you knew, would have concluded what you did.

Would a reasonable and prudent person, being fired upon, believe that a person who fired a gun at them manifestly intended to kill them and had the ability to do so? Yup. That's a no-brainer, and therefore probably a no-bill.

It has often been the case, given the totality of the situation, that badguys have threatened then"reached" for a nonexistant gun in an attempt to intimidate, and then been shot by their intended victim.

True. And any reasonable and prudent person, knowing what the defendant knew at the time (and no more!), would believe that the threatening badguy who reached for his waistband was in fact reaching for a weapon and intended to kill the defendant.

Doesn't matter what other facts come to light later. The badguy could have been unarmed, or the gun may have been a toy. Those facts might look bad to the rest of the world, but they would not matter legally as long as you did not know them at the time.

On the other hand, the badguy might have been a mass murderer on steroids or an extensively trained martial artist who regularly snapped people in half with his bare hands. That would make you look pretty good to the rest of the world, but again it would not change your legal position one tiny bit unless you knew these facts at the time of the event.

Plenty of other factors could completely change your understanding of the events after the fact, but have no real effect on your legal position. Legally, the important thing will be what you knew at the moment you pulled the trigger. The jury will be instructed to ask itself whether a reasonable and prudent person, knowing what you knew at the time, would have believed the attacker had the ability to kill to you -- and whether the totality of circumstances indicated that he intended to do so. The bad guy coulda done this, he coulda meant that, the circumstances coulda been this other thing -- but when it gets to court, all that will really matter is what you knew at the time.

I don't believe the law says I HAVE to get into a fistfight with a mugger because I'm male.
It doesn't.

It says you cannot kill someone else unless a reasonable and prudent person, knowing what you knew at the time, would believe the attacker had the ability, opportunity, and manifest intent to kill or cripple you at the very moment you killed him.

pax
 
So is it reasonable for one to think that a physical assault from another person is life threatening?

Yes, it is. Life others have said, you don't know something until it has happened. You don't know the guy is going to stop after a few wild punches. You don't know he's "just messin around". And it's just not safe to assume that a fight will just end when you feel like it. Being a tough guy and getting into fights is a poor excuse to put your life on the line. If someone attacks me, they intend to inflact damage on me. That is a threat to my life. All the one prone to druken brawls can say "it's not really a big deal" all they want. I just hope you don't end up with a fractured skull because you were just having fun, or because you let your guard down.
 
agreed - Tried by twelve, carried by six, yadda yadda....the reason i'm armed is so i can avoid being harmed seriously by people who intend to do so. I'd say someone trying to beat my face in is a fairly serious threat, as i personally saw a guy get killed in a 'no big deal' barfight. What reasonable person is going to expect anything OTHER than serious bodily harm or death when they get in a fight with a stranger? Do people rub eachother with body oils and tickle eachothers feet with feathers when they fight nowadays? If you do everything in your power to avoid a conflict and someone attacks you, you're in serious trouble. Note that this scenario is different from actually picking a fight with someone and THEN killing them because you were 'scared for your life'.
 
"I'm gonna kick your ###!" is not a threat against your life. It's a threat of pain, not of murder. A jury will agree with me. You're going to look like someone that was affraid of physical pain, not afraid of a life threatening situation, and that just isn't a good enough reason to brandish a weapon, by law or by honor.

This is a rediculous arguement. I'm dissappointed in most of you, and I'm done fighting with you about it. If you'd really pull a gun to avoid a simple fist fight, then you are a coward.
 
Drawing your weapon is not deadly force. If by drawing your weapon, you prevent a crime from taking place, I cannot reasonably expect that any police officer would give you heartache.

Brandishing your weapon is one step short of deadly force. As far as I'm concerned it should be a step that everyone considers before actually shooting someone. Because many encounters would be able to solved without having to escalate to deadly force.

Some of you say that you don't draw your weapon unless your ready to use it. I agree with that 100%. But just because you are ready to use it, does NOT mean you have to.

Edited for spelling
 
expvideo said:
This is a rediculous arguement. I'm dissappointed in most of you, and I'm done fighting with you about it. If you'd really pull a gun to avoid a simple fist fight, then you are a coward.



Then you sir really shouldn't carry a gun out into the world.

You cannot just get into a "regular old fist fight" while carrying a weapon, because if at any time the fight progresses and you are suddenly faced with a life threatening circumstance you have given up your right to self defense and if you then pull the gun you are in more trouble than if you'd pulled it to avoid the fist fight in the first place, because you were a willing participant. Willing participants are not allowed to defend themselves.

In many states, mine included, you are SPECIFICALLY told in statute that drawing a weapon as a deterrent to FORCE (not deadly force directed against you, only force) is NOT the use of deadly force.

You can disagree with that, you can not like it, but you CAN NOT argue that it is somehow illegal.

I suggest you do some more reading and/or get some training on the law, especially in the state where you live.

It's a whole other world of action once you decide to go armed. Your decision making has to be directed in a totally different direction and thoughts of being seen as a "coward" because you won't get into bar fights etc has to go.
If you truly believe that way, then you should not carry a gun.

expvideo said:
Where's the honor and pride, guys?

Honor and pride are not mentioned in the Penal Codes that I am aware of, self defense, force, and deadly force are, and defined in great detail. You should not attempt to take Old West attitudes into a modern self-defense situation, you'll end up in prison.
 
Unless your jury consists of Klingons, honor and pride will be less important than whether the attacker had the ability and opportunity to put you in jeopardy of your life. Whether he's screaming that he's going to beat you down or kill you really doesn't matter, if a reasonable person in those circumstances.

Then you sir really shouldn't carry a gun out into the world.

Absolutely. If you don't understand what the legal implications of deadly force are (including what is true and what is not), you aren't ready to carry said force into polite society. Although, if one is given to situations where fights are common, polite society is probably not an area one frequents.
 
I didn't say you should get in a fist fight. You should try to leave. But choosing to brandish a weapon as opposed to leaving is NOT ok. That is standing your ground by brandishing a weapon. And there ARE different kinds of fights. Some kid standing up to you thinking that he is doing the right thing, is NOT some drunk that's going to beat you to death. You should try to leave. If you can't leave, it doesn't mean you have to point guns at people, until you feel your life is in danger. A gun is a fighting tool. It is not the only fighting tool. A good retention holster and a clear sense of your predicament will protect you from having your gun used against you. If you are affraid of that, then pull it out. If you aren't affraid for your life, you have no reason to make the other guy affraid for his.

Also, I wouldn't advise a person to pull a pistol within 10 feet of someone. Do it to me, and I'll take the gun out of your hands. I know enough martial arts that I can disarm you if you come close enough, no matter who you are, and so can a lot of other people. DON'T pull a gun at that range. It WILL get you killed.

Let's not forget that this changes when someone depends on you for protection. If I'm in Seattle, and walking down some alley with my girlfriend, I don't care who you are or what you're doing, if you threaten me in any way I'll pull a gun. Why is this different? Because I'm not the only one that can be hurt here. If I go down, who will protect my girlfriend?

I'm not talking about what you are allowed to do within the confines of law, I'm talking about right and wrong. It's wrong to pull a gun and stay, as opposed to leaving.
 
Also, I wouldn't advise a person to pull a pistol within 10 feet of someone. Do it to me, and I'll take the gun out of your hands. I know enough martial arts that I can disarm you if you come close enough, no matter who you are, and so can a lot of other people. DON'T pull a gun at that range. It WILL get you killed.
With a comment like that you should prepare yourself for a barrage of flamings. I'll bet you the price of a burial that you wouldn't.
 
Self Defense in La.

Doug38--I have a friend who teaches the people who teach the CCW classes.

I recently had a very interesting conversation with him where he said that if you came home and a man was sitting on your girlfriends chest and was/had choked her to the point of turning blue--you could not legally use deadly force against this person because you don't have enough information(at that point) to justify such force!!!

I offered that this was ludicrous!!!He was adamant you could not justify deadly force because you simply don't know the full story----yet.

I asked if I should wait until she passed out or had brain damage before intervening!!!! It is beyond me where he gets this idea.Louisiana law certainly would permit the use of lethal force in this instance.He did not seem to understand the reasonable man concept(among other things).

If there is one thing I have found to be consistant in Louisiana is that much of law enforcement and those training them DO NOT KNOW THE LAW at all.

Such as open carry being perfectly legal---most police still insist it is illegal!!
 
Also, I wouldn't advise a person to pull a pistol within 10 feet of someone. Do it to me, and I'll take the gun out of your hands. I know enough martial arts that I can disarm you if you come close enough, no matter who you are, and so can a lot of other people. DON'T pull a gun at that range. It WILL get you killed.

All right that's enough chest thumping. You can PM or email me your bonafides. This is a serious forum where serious subjects are discussed. There is no place for the Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear not, for I'm the meanest SOB in the valley attitude here.

This one is closed. expvideo, I need some verifyable creds.
 
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