The minimum threat level to present your gun?

[Darth Muffin]

My answers (all legal in my state):

1. (in the best scared and paniced voice I can do, while reaching for "wallet") "Sure, whatever you want, just please don't hur--"*bang* *bang*!
2. I'd have said something when they were gathering around it and developing their "plan". At that point they should change their mind, knowing they're being observed, or run off, or heads towards you--which may get a "stop there" warning while I try to evade, followed by drawing if they persist. If they just want to beat your car while you watch and don't care, there's not much you can do besides be a good witness and call the police.
3. The gun definitely comes out. If they're more than lunge distance away (say 6-8 feet) they get a warning. If the contine to close, I fire. If one or more is already within that range, I would fire when drawing. This assumes that your "friend" is on the up-and-up, you were both minding your own business until the attack, and it's not something like a drug deal gone bad.

 

[whenindo]

Situational awareness could keep a lot of people out of trouble if they just exercised it more often. In fact all of the time.

How often do you hear victims say "I knew something wasn't right, but I just ..."?

Road rage, bars, nightclubs, seedy areas, people who use drugs. All things I avoid 100% because they are hotbeds of people whose faculties are not 100% and ripe for escalation to violence.

Lets face it, most of us that CCW AND practice good situational awareness will never have to use it. Obviously if you live in a crappy place your odds go up, but averaged out it's very rare taking the population as a whole that it comes down to that.

Pertaining to the sample examples at the start of the thread AND applying Colorado's laws I would be:

1) justified in using deadly force against the big robber
2) not justified against the guys beating my car up
3) justified if the guys beating my friend up where still present and an immenent threat to him and/or me
4) not justified if the guys that beat my friend up were fleeing and I started popping caps into them as they were running away

The last two scenarios are important because they had already inflicted great bodily harm so their intent is already proven.

But, you cannot go vigilante chasing them as the threat is no longer immenent. The minute they flee it becomes a matter for the police and not you.

And one thing the officer that was a guest speaker at my CCW class stressed and is very important:

If you are ever unfortunate enough to be engaged in a CCW encounter, explain the facts and ONLY the facts of what happened to the police and then shut up. Do not embellish.

Many people end up getting themselves into trouble because they don't know when to shut up.

 

[Geronimo45]

For number 1, whatever it takes to get rid of 'em. Shoot, stab, strike, strangle, stomp, etc. If somebody grabs a hold of me, I'd better be getting either money or a kiss. Otherwise, they're a threat to my security, in flagrant violation of my Geneva Convention rights, and thus war criminals - and are to be treated as war criminals should be.

For number 2, I'd set off the car alarm. If they didn't scram, I'd diall 911 on the cell and search the area for an op-cay.

Number 3: Texas allows protection of the sorry hides of your fellow man - so, unless I'm pretty sure said buddy had it coming (known troublemaker who shot his mouth off or similar type), I'd call the cops and draw. Probably tell said group to back off.

 

[Mandirigma]

....., bars, nightclubs, seedy areas, people who use drugs. All things I avoid 100% because they are hotbeds of people whose faculties are not 100% and ripe for escalation to violence.

HEH HEH HEH *sigh* thats my typical work day.

Even get to add walking the girls out to thier cars after we close up.



Yeah yeah yeah I know change professions. BTDT, too monotonous. Too boring and predictable. And I had a problem with the Road Rage sitting in traffic an hour and a half each way, especially when doing the speed limit without traffic the drive was only twenty minutes.

Life's Journey is NOT to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting HOLY SH#&!!! WHAT A RIDE!!!

I guess this quote about sums it up for me. After all Life is for living.

 

[telkontar]

I hope the exchange about Texas law reminds all participants that state laws do matter and do vary.

I am an attorney licensed in Illinois (inactive in Utah), and do my hunting with family in North Dakota and in Washington. Each state is different. Always seek advice from local, competent counsel.

What is morally right and what is legal are not always the same. Having lived and travelled abroad, I would not trade our legal system for any other (despite the shortcomings).

The last comments about Texas law seem correct (but seek local advice, of course). A prosecutor may decide whether or not to file charges. A judge may or may not favor one side in a criminal hearing. (I am not a criminal attorney.) The jury will get to decide what is "reasonable" (a question of fact, not a question of law). Unfortunately, juries these days are seldom (if ever) your neighbors, so the jury may not know your good heart and your good judgment.

Thanks for the mental exercise to all who posted on the original topic. With no CCW in Illinois, it is theoretical for me, but I think there are usually stages in the escalation before guns are brandished, warning shot is fired, and shots are aimed at BGs.

 

[threegun]

1. Deploy my knife to gain the needed space to draw.

2. Stay back and call police make a good witness.

3. Draw and order them to the ground. If they run thats cool just make a good witness.

 

[threefeathers]

Arizona has already cases that establish precidence in all of these cases. No ne has to take a beating from anyone. You may think that you can take a few blows but you will be hurt and it will affect yur life. An older person simply cannot take a beating without having a life altering trauma. In case one you can shoot and you will have established court precident on you side.
All of the other cases you wil have to base yur defense on the fear for yur life. Once the BG does threaten you they make your defense easier.

 

[gezzer]

#1 BANG, I am disabled with arthritis I cannot fight him and I am in fear of my life or grave injury.

The other part of the question is the typical anti-gunner or pacifist question that I do not abide. (give the robber every thing and pray he won’t kill maim or rape you after all rape isn’t that bad)

#2 call the cops it is a stinking car I do not care what it cost. The car is Duh insured!

#3 Bang, multiple attackers who have definitely shown their intention, see #1 in fear of my life my friends life and grave bodily injury for both of us.

 

[brownie0486]

The queation:

How would you respond to the following situations? Would your gun be an option?
1. A much larger guy grabs you by the shirt, raises a fist, and makes some demand ("give me your wallet, watch, ... <whatever>").

An answer from another:

1. (in the best scared and paniced voice I can do, while reaching for "wallet") "Sure, whatever you want, just please don't hur--"*bang* *bang*!


I'm not of the same mindset here. Could a raised fist kill me? It might, but raised fists are not usually considered use of lethal force against me or others by the courts. If they were, anyone could shoot anyone else to protect their life without hesitation.

If that were the case, fistfights would become automatically deadly confrontations with use of deadly force being applied nationwide at the first raising of a fist with the intent to "fight".

Now, I don't think the courts in most jurisdictions consider a punch lethal force. The reasonableness by a jury of your peers will be hard pressed to believe his raised fist presented immediate threat to life without some disparity of force [ size between the two, age of the two, etc ].

In other words, 1. (in the best scared and paniced voice I can do, while reaching for "wallet") "Sure, whatever you want, just please don't hur--"*bang* *bang*! might not be an automatic "gimme" in the courts eyes where use of deadly force is concerned.

Brownie

 

[tnieto2004]

Many people carry guns because they do not feel ABLE to defend themselves in those situations .. There is nothing wrong with that.. The guns are there to PROTECT you and keep you from harm.. No matter what anyone says, shooting someone should NOT be the first thing to do .. You can see if the situation will escalate and should draw the gun at the appropriate time .. every situation is different and drawing a gun can often make more problems for both parties..

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Concur with brownie. Here is where the instant heel of hand applied to chin with predjudice will give him great incentive to let go. Hit hard and keep pushing after the blow. Don't hesitate and don't warn. HIT!

 

[Whitewolf 508]

Scenario 1. Assisted opening buck knife in right front pocket would be opened and used on big strong guys wrist that is holding my shirt. Or barrel of COLT Ds shoved HARD into his sternum followed by bang bang if he did not back off.

Scenario 2. Push the little red button on the clicker. If they approached me, draw and get ready to fire if they kept advancing.

Scenario 3. Yell at attacker to stop - gun drawn and behing leg. If assault did not stop or it appeared I was going to be attacked, fire.

AND the most important thing- keep my mouth shut until my lawyer showed up.