Getting beat up, do you draw?

[physics]

Sorry if this has been posted before, I looked around and couldn't find anything.

Imagine for some reason behemoth of a man is very angry at you and articulating threats such as "I'm gonna kick your butt" or other such nonsense. He does not threaten you with your life, he just wants to beat you up.

You are carrying a ccw, that the attacker doesn't know about. Let's assume that if he finds it he will try to take it and use it.

At what point does this change from an avoidance/non-lethal force situation to a situation in which you draw? Does the fact that you are armed make any attacker a threat to your life, even if they have articulated they only want to hurt you?

Sorry for the noob question too... I am really not sure about this situation, and I think it is valid for a ccl holder to think about.

Thanks!

 

[gdvan01]

You "assume" he'll take the gun away and use it if he finds it so you decide to go ahead and show it to him anyway...just because he 'says' he's going to kick yer butt? Two things you should make yourself familiar with:

- escalation of force
- articulation of the facts

 

[spyderdude]

If a guy came up to me and told me he wanted to kick my butt, or beat me up, I can only assume he wants to kill me. I will make a great attempt to get away as fast as possible, and call the police to inform them that I had been threatened. If for some reason I cannot get away easily, I will uncover my sidearm, and give him fair warning to back down, because I don't know for certain that he is armed or not. He may say he wants to kick my butt, but he could be armed too. If he continues to advance towards me, I will draw, and if he still comes at me, I'm unloading on him. I'm not the type of guy built to put up a fight against bigger guys than me. But like I said, I will do everything I possibly can to put as much distance as possible between myself and the guy who said he wanted to kick my butt.

 

[physics]

You are carrying a ccw, that the attacker doesn't know about. Let's assume that if he finds it he will try to take it and use it.

What I said

You "assume" he'll take the gun away and use it if he finds it so you decide to go ahead and show it to him anyway...just because he 'says' he's going to kick yer butt?

NOT what I said.

I am asking at what point does this become a situation in which you draw. You can even fast forward and say the attacker has already taken your gun. At what point SHOULD you have drawn?

I'm asking because I don't know. I don't even have my ccl yet, that is why I want to know, I would rather know these things before carrying. I try to not learn things the hard way when it comes to guns.

EDIT: TY spyderdude that was helpful.

 

[Jeff White]

It changes from an avoidance situation to a draw situation the minute he blocks your escape. The proper thing to do is use the Nike defense and depart the area. Your CCW isn't there so you can win a verbal argument. It's there to defend your life and you always need to judge your actions by the reasonable man test. That means, would a reasonable man, knowing only what you know about the situation at the time you were faced with it, believe that you were threatened with imminent death or great bodily harm. If it doesn't pass that test, then you probably shouldn't be using deadly force.

There are those who will argue that stand your ground laws give you the right to gun down anyone you want if you are in a place where you are legally entitled to be. Don't believe them, because every law like that I've read still requires you to meet the other justifications for the use of deadly force. If you are on the street or in another public place, you better be sure you can articulate that you were in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.

It's never a good idea to go hand to hand while you are armed. When you make the decision to carry a firearm or other deadly weapon, you must also make the decision to forever give up brawling and other activities. If you're the kind of person who is going to go into attack mode when the sloppy drunk gets mouthy and punch him in the nose, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun. If you feel that you are less of a man if you walk away from trouble, you probably shouldn't be carrying. People get themselves in enough trouble with those attitudes when they are unarmed. Engaging in mutual combat while armed will probably guarantee felony charges. Remember there is at least one weapon present in every disagreement you get into while you are armed..the one YOU brought.

Jeff

 

[spyderdude]

I'm not going to let the guy get a chance to take my gun away from me. If he does, it will be empty, and he will have most of if not all of the rounds from my magazine in him. He will simply have to beat me down with it. Don't give the bad guy an advantage over you, especially when he's much bigger than you are. That's why I like this quote (I forget where its from)
"God created man, Sam Colt made man equal."

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

What Utah law has to say on the subject.

76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.

(1) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(2) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in Subsection (1) if he or she:
(a) initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
(b) is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or
(c) (i) was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement, unless he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and, notwithstanding, the other person continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force; and
(ii) for purposes of Subsection (i) the following do not, by themselves, constitute "combat by agreement":
(A) voluntarily entering into or remaining in an ongoing relationship; or
(B) entering or remaining in a place where one has a legal right to be.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat from the force or threatened force described in Subsection (1) in a place where that person has lawfully entered or remained, except as provided in Subsection (2)(c).
(4) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6. Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony. Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.
(5) In determining imminence or reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact may consider, but is not limited to, any of the following factors:
(a) the nature of the danger;
(b) the immediacy of the danger;
(c) the probability that the unlawful force would result in death or serious bodily injury;
(d) the other's prior violent acts or violent propensities; and
(e) any patterns of abuse or violence in the parties' relationship..

"Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates or causes serious permanent disfigurement, protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or creates a substantial risk of death.

It is reasonable for me to believe that "just beating me up" is likely to cause serious bodily injury. If said behemoth articulates and moves forward in an attempt to do so, he has made the nature and the immediacy of the danger quite clear.

While it would definately be preferable to extricate oneself from the situation by other means (walking away, for example), a reasonable person may need to use deadly force to protect oneself. Walking or even running away is going to be a lot easier on you in the long run to shooting someone, justified or not.

However, if you commonly find yourself in situations where a "behemoth of a man is very angry at you", you may wish to change your lifestyle to avoid being confronted with that situation. Staying out of the wrong place at the wrong time will save more good folks than a CCW ever will.

Of course, you probably should refer to ORS 161.219 since Oregon has different requirements to the justification of deadly force.

I don't even have my ccl yet, that is why I want to know, I would rather know these things before carrying.

This is the type of thing they should be covering in your class.

That said, I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. CCW is a big responsibility, you should make every effort to get your information from your local authorities/lawyers and not from goofballs like me on the internet.

 

[Cosmoline]

Check your own codes, but serious bodily harm is generally sufficient to justify the use of deadly force. Your first goal should be avoidance and retreat, no matter what your duty to retreat law says. The real problem with shooting an unarmed person is one of proof, so witnesses are a good idea. So is issuing clear commands. In general it's a bad situation. Avoid places where these things are likely to happen, such as bars. And avoid getting into arguments with idiots.

 

[1911Tuner]

It changes from an avoidance situation to a draw situation the minute he blocks your escape.

Bingo. Physical restraint pretty much equates with forcing someone to be or go where he or she doesn't want to go. That's defined as kidnapping. That fact, and his words and actions leading up to the act of blocking your escape would lead the reasonable man to believe that he intends to do you serious physical harm. The "Disparity of Force" rule would also apply.

There are those who will argue that stand your ground laws give you the right to gun down anyone you want if you are in a place where you are legally entitled to be. Don't believe them, because every law like that I've read still requires you to meet the other justifications for the use of deadly force.

Bingo-2. It's best for all concerned if you CAN avoid shooting him if possible and without placing yourself in further jeopardy. If you're 60 and emphysematic or otherwise physically disabled, you don't stand a chance of outrunning an athletic young man, and you are under no obligation to try. But...if there's an escape route that is open to you without leaving yourself vulnerable to a non-defensible attack...you're foolish not to take it, even if you're not legally required to do so. Like the man said: "Shoot...or don't shoot. Either way, you'll regret it."

The aftermath of even a 101% justified shooting can have a way of turning into a nightmare, and it's best avoided if at all possible.

 

[BOONER]

As Jeff stated, get out when you can........ Run avoid it leave, then if no option exsist then defend, also a good reason to carry pepper spray(fox labs) it give you a lesser option and also maybe a chance to remove yourself from the situation.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

The term is "disparity of force". If he is literally that much bigger, "beating you up" could easily be fatal to you. A fistfight is nothing like a rocky movie. Two or three good shots from someone with a lot of power behind the punches WILL mess you up but good.

Ability, opportunity, and motive. Does the ikndividual have all three? Sounds like he has 2 of them, ability and motive are present. Opportunity? Not unless you are blocked from escape.

Jeff said it best: The nike defense. Does this make you a coward? NO, it does not. It shows you have good judgement. As much as this jerk may deserve a beating, this isn't a lethal force required situation.

The other thing you didn't mention: What distance are we talking between him and you? If he's already at arms length, you're most likely in trouble no matter what.

 

[Sistema1927]

A punch can kill.

If I am not the aggressor or the instigator (and I won't be as long as I am carrying, being an armed citizen makes you very cautious), and if I have no safe way to escape, I would feel perfectly justified in using deadly force to stop someone from "kicking my butt".

IANAL, YMMV.

 

[Pilgrim]

Just getting 'beat up' leaves much to interpretation just how badly you are going to get hurt. I really have no desire to hang around to find out just what he means when he says he is going to "kick my butt".

Try not to equate your experiences with school yard scraps with what an angry bar room brawler can do when he has worked himself up into a berserker rage.

Pilgrim

 

[Biker]

I guess much depends on where you live. In my neck of the woods, unless there are weapons involved or there is a clear medical or a *very* clear disparity of force issue, you're gonna have a hard time convincing a jury that you were justified in shooting a man over a simple fistfight.

I would guess that at the least you would get stuck with a manslaughter charge.

Biker

 

[buck00]

99.9 percent of fights are avoidable if you swallow your pride and stop escalating things verbally. The big issue here is this- are you going to run your mouth to some guy just because you are carrying? If so, you shouldn't be carrying in the first place.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Beat Down

I have some personal experience with regaining consciousness face-down in a pool of my own blood.

One punch. Almost no warning.

If three other guys hadn't been restraining him, there's every likelihood I'd have done some hospital time.

I don't have any illusions about how tough I am.

Compounding that is the onset of arthritis. You can't see it, but I can't make a tight fist and my hand won't take a severe blow.

I can't expect an assailant to know this, but there very likely won't be time to explain.

I'm afraid I might have to deploy somewhat earlier than others, but each situation has its own parameters.

My first choice is "don't be there."

If I have to "be there" then my next choice is "be extra alert."

If, despite extra alertness and area avoidance, I find myself confronted by Tiny Bunyan, I'll do what I can to let Tiny know I need to leave and he needs to allow that. If it deteriorates to "no escape" and "imminent threat" then all he gets is seven meters. Then, reluctantly, we dance.

Larry Correia does training for this kind of thing. Having read some of his accounts, I would suggest that you do what I plan to do: get training.

You need to know the limits of your reaction time and the limits imposed by the hardware. You also need to know the kind of physical reaction you'll need to overcome.

When it's crunch time, it's your training that will save you.

Without training, you're gambling.

How's your luck?

 

[TallPine]

The proper thing to do is use the Nike defense and depart the area.

But what if the other guy can run faster than you? I dunno about you all, but I'm not very good at drawing my gun while being tackled at a dead run (not that I've actually tried it).

Out in the woods, when confronted by a big mean hairy critter, you can often get away by backing away slowly. If you run, you die.

I don't think I want to turn my back on someone who just threatened to hurt me.

It's not about honor or anything - it's about survival.

Since I don't go around starting fights with people, I'm assuming this threat has come out of the clear blue for no apparent reason.

 

[ball3006]

I would try to back away from the...

situation. However, I am 63 years old with gimpy knees so running is difficult. I am rarely out somewhere without my wife. If someone attacks me, she will surly shoot them. We practice "what if" all the time so we each know what to do....chris3

 

[physics]

Since I don't go around starting fights with people, I'm assuming this threat has come out of the clear blue for no apparent reason.

Yeah, I would expect that things change if you start the fight.

Jeff and 1911Tuner, what you guys said makes 100% sense. I almost think that this is a screwed no matter what situation though. Does the fact that the guy won't let you leave articulate that grave a threat?
Even if the police find you to have made a good shoot, won't a civil lawsuit have a VERY good case against you? (Killed an unarmed man who had said he just wanted to beat you up)

In all honesty, I'd rather get beat up than have to shoot someone, but having a ccw changes the situation, because the non-life threatening situation could become life threatening very quickly.
I guess the deeper question here is can the fact that you are carrying put you into a situation where the use of lethal force is necessary? (In other words, if no ccw, behemoth is just going to beat you up, but with a ccw, he may take it from you in his rage.)

NOTE: I am not at all interested in fighting, my first option will ALWAYS be avoidance. Keeping myself out of this type of situation is the first line of defense. However, I don't want to be thinking about "Am I justified?" while said behemoth is charging, and I can't outrun him. Plus, I'm a little nerdy guy who can barely even lift a desert eagle, so pretty much everyone is behemoth to me. Heh, my wife would probably whoop my butt.

 

[Elmer Fudd]

People get beat to death every day. If I feel threatened I will attempt to create space. If that fails or I am pursued I will draw, warn, and fire if the attacker does not immediately stop. I will not wait to get hit. Of course if I am with my family the creating space part will probably not be a viable option, with two young kids, and the pistol will come out immediately.

I don't spend time in bars or parts of town where trouble is common, I therefore assume if I am threatened the person is deranged or has hostile intent. I look at it like he is making the choice to end his own life, not me.

 

[T. Bracker]

Jeff,

Great points. I take it to mean by the "Nike defense" you mean get out of the area, not necessarily at a dead run? I agree with Tallpine, that I would hate to turn my back to run, when the guy may not only be bigger than me, but faster as well (which is not hard!). Am I reading your comments correctly?

 

[johndoe1027]

First I'd like to say thanks to our wonderful mod team here. I was forced to visit other forums there for a few days and got a reminder to the lack, incompetence, carelessness, or rudeness of mods on other forums. Not so much gun forums but other types. Anyway, had to say that.

Before I had a CHL (or any firearms for that matter) I would be the guy at the bar to politely tell the loud mouth to ease up or maybe get drinks elsewhere. That usually doesn't help anything but I didn't feel like everyone had to have a crappy night because of an idiot. It usually didn't get me whooped but I came close a few times. (The last time I got in a fist fight was when I was 13 BTW.)

Needless to say my actions have changed a lot once I became a responsibly armed citizen. I also hardly ever go to bars any more and we can't carry to them in NC anyway (part of the reason I don't go). That and I'm getting older.

So, that stuff aside there are many good answers here (of course legality varies form state to state). I like the Nike defense. I call it firing up the Shubaru's. I wouldn't turn and run but I would back away, hands out, palms toward him (assuming he's not really close to me), calmly telling him whatever he needs to hear to give me time to get away (I was wrong you were right, please don't beat me up, whatever). If he blocks the entrance, then I have to assume he means me deadly harm. My interpretation is that in NC we are supposed to wait until we are within an inch of lives before we draw. We also can't use deadly force once someone is already in your home. We can only use it while they are in the process of breaking in and even then they have to have felonious intent. Yeah, little odd to me too. Remember those are my interpretations but they went over it (what seemed like) 50 times in the CHL class.

I will not wait that long to draw because as stated earlier if he realized I'm armed during a fight (which I would certainly "lose"), it could turn nasty for me. If he blocks my escape, (this is where my plan departs from some others I've heard) I clear my weapon and place my strong hand on it. I would like to try to insert a verbal warning here but there may not be time for that. If he keeps my escape blocked and continues to advance, draw, aim, and fire in one fluid motion, Follow up shot, keep the front sight on him for a second (just in case he's "on something" that makes 45's feel like a bee sting or less). 911 ASAP. Keep my distance from him with my sights on him if possible. Make sure to drop my weapon before LEO's arrive.

Yes I think this is valid for a CCW carrier to think about and I have thought about it several times. I hope none of us ever have to use "Plan C" or whatever it may be for you.

Thanks again mods, you guys not only keep it really clean and on topic around here but you also take the time to post thoughtful and well written replies. Joy.

 

[redbearde]

in my TN concealed carry class, the legal part went so far as to give an example of being punched in the nose and it being broken had been ruled in case law as *not* sufficient cause to draw a weapon and shoot an assailant.

Seems to me the wiser course when we're carrying is to do everything we can to avoid a fistfight...up to and including things that might make us out to be a wimp. Let the other guy cut you off on the freeway and give you the finger and don't respond.

in this case, without any additional situational information...

other guy: "I'm going to kick your butt"

me: "look, I'm very sorry. I didn't mean to do [-whatever made him mad-]. It was rude, and you didn't deserve that discourtesy [even if he did]. Please, can I buy you a coffee?"

We shouldn't carry a gun to make sure other people respect or fear us. We carry a gun because we might need to shoot someone. Just because someone says, "I'm going to kick your butt" does not necessarily mean we need to shoot him.

 

[Cowboybootnut]

About 10 years ago in Dallas TX there was a situation in which two cars were at a red light during a typical Dallas rush hour. I believe the back car accidentally bumped the front car, no major damage. The driver of the front car came out, began yelling at the driver of the back car, and proceeds to start punching through the back car driver's door open window. The driver of the back car, who is strapped in a seat belt, and cannot move his car anywhere (due to the minor accident and being in a traffic jam) is "stuck." He really couldn't defend himself by physical means, it is too late to warn the attacker, and he can't move much. The second driver also is a CCL with a CCW. He kept taking several punches, and eventually goes for his CCW and fires on the attacker, who dies.

There were no charges filed against the CCL driver, I don't know about civil action. It was one of the first CCL used actions in Texas.

Since it is a ten-year old story, if someone can remember it and can add or correct it, please do.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Progression of force...

Mouth-fu : Diplomatic apology, attempts to verbally de-escellate the situation.
Shoe-Fu : Walk if you can, run like hell if you need to.
Gun-Fu: If (God forbid) you can't get any other option to work.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have -personally- seen someone killed with one punch and another guy turned into a parapalegic with two lucky (unlucky?) punches.

Now later you may have to articulate the three rules (Means, motive, opportunity) but surviving to actually BE there later is no small part of the consideration.

Course with two extensive abdominal surgeries I'm in a "special place" because ONE punch to the gut could be crippling or even fatal to me so bare fists are more of a threat to me than they might be to some.