Debate with my anti-gun brother (who is a judge)

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In such a case, the Church as the authority prosecuting the war, could find it's own causus belli to be just. But you and I will never see that happen.

I accept completely that the Church could find its own causus belli t(cause of war) to be just.

But are you also claiming that the Church would be compelled to find the aggressor's causus belli to be just, if the aggressor was a duly elected government?

Mike
 
Reset the scale to 2,000 years, and tell me with a straight face that martyrdom has no power.

We can probably all agree that an exceedingly rare individual - under exceedingly rare circumstances - can change the world by an act of martyrdom. It is clearly the exception - not the rule.
 
Great Googlie Mooglie -- Law, Sullivan, Gumbleton. What a rogue's gallary.

I haven't been able to find the 1971 condemnation -- but if there was such, it would indeed be in conflict with the Church's doctrine.
 
But are you also claiming that the Church would be compelled to find the aggressor's causus belli to be just, if the aggressor was a duly elected government?
You misunderstand. The Church does not find the aggressor's cause just or unjust.

The Church would follow international law in this case -- that is, treat captured soldiers as honorable combatants (which is a key component of this doctrine) and not hold them responsible for any crimes committed by their government (so long as they themselves committed no crimes.)
 
I haven't been able to find the 1971 condemnation.

I can't find the text either, but I do remember it being a big deal at the time. I was moving away form Catholicism by that time, but I had spent the previous 4 years at a Jesuit high school, and remember friends who felt pretty strongly that the bishops rejection made it possible to use Catholic beliefs as a grounds for CO status. I turned 18 in 1971, so it would have been a hot issue.

I don't know any of the actual names of the bishops groups in the US, which stymies google searches. I thought it was "Conference of Bishops", but that may be wrong. It be interesting to read the actual text.

I guess it's possible that the bishops didn't say that war was unjust, but only that the actual prosecution of the war was unjust. I don't know if that would cut it for a draft board or not.

I still find it mind-boggling that if Hugo Chavez decided to declare war on the Church do to some imagined (or real) injustice to the indigenous peoples of Venezuela, the Church would be compelled to accept that the war was just.

I am not arguing the point - it seems to be implied in the Catechism you cited, and I believe you. I am just trying to wrap my mind around the idea.

Mike
 
You misunderstand. The Church does not find the aggressor's cause just or unjust.

OK. I read the following to imply that only a defensive war was just, and only under certain conditions:

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy.

Am I miss-reading this? Is this only concerned the prosecution of the war. I assumed the that the casus belli - the justification for the acts war - was being determined to be morally legitimate or not. Is that an incorrect reading?

Mike
 
We can probably all agree that an exceedingly rare individual - under exceedingly rare circumstances - can change the world by an act of martyrdom. It is clearly the exception - not the rule.

I agree that martyrdom that changes the world is in fact very rare.
Does that imply that martyrdom only powerful - or ethical - if it in fact changes the world?

Mike
 
Regardless of your religious beliefs, it seems that it's not unusual for the names and power of people who died for beliefs to have power for hundreds or thousands of years after they make that choice. Quick, can you name the man who martyred St. Peter or St. Paul? I don't share religious beliefs with those men, but even with my aged memory, I bet I could name a 100 saints, and you wouldn't be able to name more than 10 or 12 of the men who killed them. Who was more powerful?

The rabbis say, "The king's reign ends at his death. The prophet's reign begins at his death ..."

Mike

Fundamentaly I agree with you. I like the quote "Death is the road to awe".

But I think the reason no one can agree is the context of the argument.

We are not discussing the tactics of non-violently defeating a dictator, or nation. We are talking about non-violently defeating a person, on an individual level. And I think we can all agree that this particular method of passifism is illogical and irresponsible for you, your family and any other innocents.

P.S. I tend to believe that perception determines reality. Nothing is 100%, even if it seems so, we all just make educated guess based on personal historical impericism. Given that, we will never form a unified answer for this particular question. We all have personal experiences and a unique perception that form instant biased no matter HOW hard we try no be neutral. We CAN'T be neutral, not without being omnipotent...and that would make us god's...not humans...and there can't be more than one god because then how would he be "omnipotent"....etc etc .................sorry I ramble.
 
We are not discussing the tactics of non-violently defeating a dictator, or nation. We are talking about non-violently defeating a person, on an individual level.

If Bobs brother has a quasi-religious belief in pacifism, a belief that killing, even in self defense is wrong, then is a more powerful statement for him to die for his belief, or to abandon his beliefs to save his life?

For a non-religious example: Can you, or anyone else in this thread, name the man who handed Socrates the hemlock?

Socrates was offered the opportunity to run away rather than drink the hemlock. Was he acting illogically or irresponsibly?

Mike
 
Nope, but I believe once again this was a conflict with a Nation, or more accuratly, a City-state. I agree for socrates to choose death was more powerful than running away.

But if socrates had been confronted by a drunk, armed guard in the street who had a particular hatred of him...Would it be wise of him to allow the guard to beat him to death in the alley in an attempt to prove the power of his beliefs?

But as I said they are sperate issues that have been almalginated during the process of this discussion.
:p

You could argue that since he was legally convicted, and chose to stay, it is a different situation than being beaten in an alley illegaly.
But the fact remains that if they legally convicted him...then swept him out of the city and killed him before he was able to convey the meanings of his sacrafice, he would have died powerless, and for nothing!

Not that socrates reminds of bobs brother, but more to the point of using the given example....
 
No offense meant, I know he's your brother and all, but...
how have we come to the point where a sitting JUDGE thinks only part of the Bill of Rights are actually rights, and other parts can be infringed upon? Again no offense, but I can't imagine Judge Roy Bean being like this - bring 'im back!

i feel like the responses here sometimes so extreme. i mean do people really think this many people, this spectrum of human diversity in america can actually, realistically bear unadultered freedom to bear all types of arms? there are already concessions that some avenues of our unalienable and self evident rights are compromised (kiddie porn, licensing etc)

an assertion that we should be abosolutely free is unrealistic at the least and absolutely ludacris in the LIGHT of the constitution

the forefathers wrote the constitution in grand philosophical understanding. everything is a check and balance.

the fact is that there ARE very real mechanism by which firearms fall into illegal hands all the time. allowing "more extreme" firepower to be trafficked in this way just for the "pursuit of freedom" is impractical. just as impractical as it is to suggest police are everywhere when something bad happens.

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE COUNTRY OR A FREE WORLD. if you want true anarchistic freedom, you need to find yourself a shack in montana and mail bombs to universities and government buildings.

if you want a part of "society" then you have to play the tug of war game and that means by definition compromising "freedoms."

there is no such thing as unadultered freedom, once you have two people in your society you must start making compromises.

If Bobs brother has a quasi-religious belief in pacifism, a belief that killing, even in self defense is wrong, then is a more powerful statement for him to die for his belief, or to abandon his beliefs to save his life?

For a non-religious example: Can you, or anyone else in this thread, name the man who handed Socrates the hemlock?

Socrates was offered the opportunity to run away rather than drink the hemlock. Was he acting illogically or irresponsibly?

Mike
some people will make their life philosphy decisions, with the spectrum of diversity in human existence there must be tolerance of one's personal philosophical choices (until it violates someone else). sometimes there's living for principle, sometimes there is dying for principle.

We are not discussing the tactics of non-violently defeating a dictator, or nation. We are talking about non-violently defeating a person, on an individual level. And I think we can all agree that this particular method of passifism is illogical and irresponsible for you, your family and any other innocents.

P.S. I tend to believe that perception determines reality. Nothing is 100%, even if it seems so, we all just make educated guess based on personal historical impericism. Given that, we will never form a unified answer for this particular question. We all have personal experiences and a unique perception that form instant biased no matter HOW hard we try no be neutral. We CAN'T be neutral, not without being omnipotent...and that would make us god's...not humans...and there can't be more than one god because then how would he be "omnipotent"....etc etc .................sorry I ramble.
how can you say a view is illogical and irresponsible if later on you concede that perception determines reality?

omnipotence also obliges the "correct" decision, so that's not neutral.
 
Nope, but I believe once again this was a conflict with a Nation, or more accuratly, a City-state. I agree for socrates to choose death was more powerful than running away.

So is it the political status of the killer that determines the ethics?

If Bob's brother were a religiously/ethically motivated pacifist, who believed that taking another human life was wrong under any circumstances, what is the responsible and ethical action for him to take if he is placed in a position to kill or be killed?

I am not asking whether you agree with Bob's brother's hypothetical belief - I don't - but what actions should he take if he has that belief?

Mike
 
When "violence doesn't solve anything" comes into play, I prefer to quote Heinlein.
yet look where we are today. still fighting wars, sometimes for ambiguous and even dishonorable reasons. is it not true that if we could all be non-violent then the world would be better?

allow SOME tolerance for a different and equally valuable point of view.

the fact is that with human diversity there will always be violence, violation and other undesireable stuff. that does not mean that we abandon the spirit of becoming morally better.
 
So is it the political status of the killer that determines the ethics?

If Bob's brother were a religiously/ethically motivated pacifist, who believed that taking another human life was wrong under any circumstances, what is the responsible and ethical action for him to take if he is placed in a position to kill or be killed?

I am not asking whether you agree with Bob's brother's hypothetical belief - I don't - but what actions should he take if he has that belief?

Mike

I think we both agree that "Anyone not willing to die for their beliefs is not fit to live" - MLK

And since I have no desire to control peoples lives I believe he should follow what he believes...and I guess die...

In the end my point is he would be morally correct in his mind, following his beliefes to the grave. But my personal interpretation of the situation would be to resist. To resist for my self, my family left behind, and for the next innocent that will be targeted.

I think there is a certain nobility to the idea of "mind over matter".
AKA You can take my life, but you can never take my freedom (of choice at least). But being a pragmatist, the value of this action on society on a whole has a negative effect. IMHO!:)


Its great that you've been utilizing the "socratic method" over the course of thise discussion. It's fitting, and streamlines the indivduals ability to respond to a specific point!
 
No...it implies that it is a useless sacrifice that wastes a life or lives.

Does that mean that no belief is worth dying for - unless you know in advance that dying for that belief is absolutely guaranteed to convince the world of that belief?

Mike

Mike
 
yet look where we are today. still fighting wars, sometimes for ambiguous and even dishonorable reasons. is it not true that if we could all be non-violent then the world would be better?
But we CAN'T all be non-violent because some of us simply don't WANT to. In order for EVERYONE to be non-violent you would have to eliminate free will.

I despise people who want to justify social policy with comic books and movies, but the movie "Demolition Man" provides a humorous example of what your world would be like if just ONE person decided he didn't want to play. Everyone else would be running around like panicked sheep, while he gleefully indulged his joy in the suffering of others, completely free to do as he wished. One man would hold the rest of society in his hands, with mankind as his livestock. The alternative is that you'd have to find at least ONE person to fight him... and if one, why not two, four... 10,000?

But of course people would refuse to be victims long before it came to that, and the whole premise would collapse of its own weight.
 
Does that mean that no belief is worth dying for - unless you know in advance that dying for that belief is absolutely guaranteed to convince the world of that belief?

No. There are many instances of "martyrdom" that can be justified.

A political/social cause that pits individuals against an oppressive system in need of fundamental change, wherein an individual can make a statement by his death that will potentially be heard 'round the world, is one example.

Another might be the heroic death of Medal of Honor recipient Navy SEAL Michael Monsoor:
Petty Officer Monsoor’s actions could not have been more selfless or clearly intentional. Of the three SEALs on that rooftop corner, he had the only avenue of escape away from the blast, and if he had so chosen, he could have easily escaped. Instead, Monsoor chose to protect his comrades by the sacrifice of his own life. By his courageous and selfless actions, he saved the lives of his two fellow SEALs and he is the most deserving of the special recognition afforded by awarding the Medal of Honor.


What is not justifiable in my mind is the senseless death of an assualt victim who may have had a chance if they were able and willing to resist. That person's death is meaningless as a statement of non-violence. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind - not even a pacifist - thinking of that as a heroic statement, or as anything other than a complete waste.

Further...Someone with so much to contribute to his family, his community, and his world - has an obligation to use those gifts to their highest and best use. Dying to preserve the life of a meth zombie long enough to get his next hit doesn't qualify. Giving equal value to a person who has NO value for human life is just wrong.
 
That person's death is meaningless as a statement of non-violence.

What could possibly be a more meaningful statement of belief in non-violence than dying rather than using violence to protect your life? Isn't that a more meaningful statement than mouthing all the platitudes in the world?

I would in general suggest that a pacifist who would not dierather than kill is not a pacifist at all! Do you disagree with that? Wouldn't you consider a pacifist who kills to save his life hypocrite? I would!

I am not a Christian, but my Christian friends tell me that a Christina dying rather than giving up the faith is very meaningful - I am inclined to agree. Why is dying for one belief (something about the nature of Jesus) meaningful where dying for another belief (ethics about the use of violence) not meaningful?

Someone with so much to contribute to his family, his community, and his world - has an obligation to use those gifts to their highest and best use.

Should we assume that all of the martyrs whose names we know, and those we don't, had no gifts to offer? Were all of them losers with nothing left to offer?

Dying to preserve the life of a meth zombie long enough to get his next hit doesn't qualify.

Would his dying for a belief or moral or ethical principle you do share with him qualify?
Would his dying for a belief or moral or ethical principle you don't share with him qualify?

Mike
 
What could possibly be a more meaningful statement of belief in non-violence than dying rather than using violence to protect your life? Isn't that a more meaningful statement than mouthing all the platitudes in the world?
How would it be a statement, if national television networks weren't there to film it?

Without someone to see and publicize it, it would be merely another person who fell prey to the criminal element -- no different from any other victim.
 
Isn't that a more meaningful statement than mouthing all the platitudes in the world?

No...Both are meaningless. But the senseless death is more meaningless (if that is possible) because of the tragic and useless death. Mouthing platitudes is only a waste of hot air.

I would in general suggest that a pacifist who would not die rather than kill is not a pacifist at all!

Agreed...I doubt the actual existance of a true pacifist. I can not imagine a person that would not fight like an animal if faced with a death they could prevent by resisting.

Wouldn't you consider a pacifist who kills to save his life hypocrite?

Not at all...If there really is such thing as a true pacifist (which I doubt) I would consider him an intelligent person who had experienced an epiphany - a sudden change of beliefs.

"Wait a minute!...I'm not going to die senselessly for this scumbag...What was I thinking?...It's his day to die - not mine!"

Should we assume that all of the martyrs whose names we know, and those we don't, had no gifts to offer?

I don't consider anyone a martyr who died in an assault because they refused to resist. They are just another victim. There is a distinct difference between laying down one's life for others, or dying for a cause in which non-violence was the most effective tactic - and dying in an assault when living would have better served humanity.
 
No...it implies that it is a useless sacrifice that wastes a life or lives.
but no man is an island, so the world will stand duly changed if only in a small way.

those men who are really islands don't affect the world anyway.

Wouldn't you consider a pacifist who kills to save his life hypocrite?

doesn't matter what we think, it's about what the pacifist thinks of himself. does it help that i believe in Jesus for someone else? no.
 
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